Just a rant..

[Alexander1]

As my friends little brother throws his Chinese water dragon, or as they called it "his iguana" in the trash can, wrapped in a Walgreens bag. I can't help it but wonder why is it ok for anyone of almost any age to purchase any animal of any kind without any type of requirement of knowledge or education on its husbandry.
I haven't been a member on this forum for too long, and I'm not the most knowledgable keeper, but I made a conscious decision and effort to learn at least the basics on my chameleons needs. Why shouldn't people be made responsible for the life they choose to own, or keep.
This poor malnourished animal was too sick it seems for me to try and save in time. I would offer proper tips and even bought the right feeders to try and teach the owner how to properly care for the animal,but he didn't seem to care.
People should be filtered out from keeping by demanding a minor "permit" in order to buy any animal, to show they really are up for the challenge and will have the basic knowledge to keep the animal healthy.. Idk, just seems f'd up for lack of a better word..
Chameleons rule btw.. This color scheme was inspired by my chams morning after shower colors..

 

[jpowell86]

View attachment 148665 As my friends little brother throws his Chinese water dragon, or as they called it "his iguana" in the trash can, wrapped in a Walgreens bag. I can't help it but wonder why is it ok for anyone of almost any age to purchase any animal of any kind without any type of requirement of knowledge or education on its husbandry.
I haven't been a member on this forum for too long, and I'm not the most knowledgable keeper, but I made a conscious decision and effort to learn at least the basics on my chameleons needs. Why shouldn't people be made responsible for the life they choose to own, or keep.
This poor malnourished animal was too sick it seems for me to try and save in time. I would offer proper tips and even bought the right feeders to try and teach the owner how to properly care for the animal,but he didn't seem to care.
People should be filtered out from keeping by demanding a minor "permit" in order to buy any animal, to show they really are up for the challenge and will have the basic knowledge to keep the animal healthy.. Idk, just seems f'd up for lack of a better word..
Chameleons rule btw.. This color scheme was inspired by my chams morning after shower colors..

I agree. Reptiles and amphibians require specialized care but that is not understood because pet stores stick them in little glass boxes and the purchasing public think that the environment they are in at the store is all they need to replicate in order to be successful at home. Plus, as you said, the majority don't find it necessary to familiarize themselves with the knowledge needed for proper care. My go to reptile store is the exception. They are incredible actually. They will teach and help anyone who is willing to learn, but they quiz you before they let go of there animals. I have personally seen them refuse sales on multiple occasions because they didn't feel the people interested were capable of caring for the particular animal they want. Some feel this is wrong, but I think it is simply putting the best interest of the animal first. Too many reptiles are purchased on whims in my opinion. I hate that the poor C.W.D. was done that way. They are a very cool species.

Is the artwork above your own?

 

[bobcochran]

Nice piece!!

That's in your backyard right?

 

[Alexander1]

I agree. Reptiles and amphibians require specialized care but that is not understood because pet stores stick them in little glass boxes and the purchasing public think that the environment they are in at the store is all they need to replicate in order to be successful at home. Plus, as you said, the majority don't find it necessary to familiarize themselves with the knowledge needed for proper care. My go to reptile store is the exception. They are incredible actually. They will teach and help anyone who is willing to learn, but they quiz you before they let go of there animals. I have personally seen them refuse sales on multiple occasions because they didn't feel the people interested were capable of caring for the particular animal they want. Some feel this is wrong, but I think it is simply putting the best interest of the animal first. Too many reptiles are purchased on whims in my opinion. I hate that the poor C.W.D. was done that way. They are a very cool species.

Is the artwork above your own?

Yea, my other hobby is graffiti.

 

[Alexander1]

Nice piece!!

That's in your backyard right?

Lol, no it's a permission wall my buddy has.

 

[jpowell86]

Yea, my other hobby is graffiti.

I am impressed. Seriously awesome work!!

 

[MissLissa]

Sweet art piece!

Also, heh. A city near me recently passed a bylaw saying that certain "advanced" species of reptile and amphibian are banned from the city unless the owner holds a permit. You have to apply to have special permission to purchase, sell or transfer ownership of the listed species, and prove to the overseeing animal care committee that you have a purpose for having that kind of animal beyond "it's cool and I want one", have your facilities and husbandry inspected and approved, provide a reference letter from a veterinarian with whom you have an established relationship, etc. Then maybe- maybe- they'll give you a permit for a certain number of individuals of that particular species. Each animal has to be entered in a database, microchipped (if possible), etc, as a permit is for a specific individual or individuals, not for the species as a whole. Breeders have to register clutches and deaths of those species, and both the breeder and the buyer are responsible for ensuring that they both have the proper permits: if one doesn't, they both get fined and the animal is likely confiscated and rehomed (not destroyed). This whole rigmarole seems reasonable to me. I mean, the species they have listed are things like: crocodiles, caiman lizards, iguanas, venomous snakes, etc. None of these should be available to just whoever wants one: it should be hard to get one!

But, my God, you should hear the whining from the local herp community. Sweet baby Jeebus on a soda cracker.

• "But I waaaaaant an alligator they are so cuuuuuuute!"
• "I can take care of a black mamba just fiiiiiiiiine. I've handled hots for years with without safety equipment or antivenin being available at the local hospitals. Why do I have to prove I know what I'm doing? And who are you to tell me I can't sell my animals to any one I choose!?"
• "My green anaconda would be soooooooo happy in it's cage that I wouldn't neeeeeeed a lock to keep it in."
• "I could traaaaaaaaain a caiman lizard to eat cat food; they don't have to have the highly specialized diet they evolved to digest!"

Seriously. These are conversations I have actually had with people.

 

[Alexander1]

Thanks guys, and at least miss lissas city has some kind of ordinance, geez it's a start

 

[WilcoxAE]

Agreed but...carefully without taking rights away. It would probably hurt the pet industry putting in such regulation but in time, I suppose it would bounce back. I am sure some conservation organization could keep the permit fees. Kinda like the whole gun permit thing. There should be some kind of "testing" process but an obvious one that doesn't have ridiculous fees making it ridiculous to get. Only something to prove if you're too stupid to pass the testing process, you're too stupid to have said item.

 

[Lathis]

This infringes on my right as an American to bear assault lizards for home protection purposes! Don't make me occupy the local DMV in protest! #lizardsdontkillpeopledo

Seriously though, I worry that passing such regulations (venomous animals not included, you should have to have a permit for those) would just push people into grey market sources and prevent them from seeking advice and professional vet care. We have had a few posts, not many though, over the last few years about people in states where chams are either illegal or the person didn't have the proper permit and couldn't take their sick Cham to a vet because of that.

Edit: On a funny/sad note, I believe Missouri still bans the possession of "poisonous" reptiles without a permit... sigh...

 

[MissLissa]

I think the grey/black market issue is part of why they did it, to be honest. This is the main hotspot in Canada for illegal imports, but they are hard to catch unless they are literally stopped at the border with baby alligators strapped inside their underwear. So, they basically said "these large, dangerous or high mortality animals that are not commonly bred in captivity are now all illegal without a permit"- kind of like a catchall I suppose. It's not like black market sellers are going to be able to get a sellers permit, and if they don't, their entire inventory is taken no matter if the government can prove it's illegally imported or not- since the animals themselves are banned.

Many of the animals were species where keeping them long-term in captivity is exceedingly difficult (especially in Canada, where outdoor enclosures are basically no-go 9 months of the year), due to diet, size, etc, or are dangerous (Canadian hospitals do not stock antivenin for gaboon vipers, for example). That city has about a million people in it, but maybe has two people who might be set up to properly care for an animal such as a nile monitor- and one of those has no interest, and the other one used the grandfather clause included in the bylaw to get his animals permitted (if you already owned one or more of these animals when the law went into effect, you had 12 months to send in the permits at no charge, no inspection etc needed). Anyone else is likely not going to be able to provide proper adult husbandry anyways, even if the animal was legally purchased. Before this, the only requirements the city had for reptile care was basically: it must be fed more than once a month, it must have some kind of access to water (did not even specify clean water), it must be ale to turn around in it's enclosure. That's it.

The place I work is actually the drop-off center for seized animals. The city pays us to rehab them and find them an appropriate home. The things I have seen cannot be unseen. I think the general populace's "right" (animal ownership is emphatically not a right in my country, it is definitely a privilege) to have these animals is better off revoked. But then, I was raised in a family where if you abuse the privileges given to you, they would be taken away

Also: how much is it to submit a permit? $25 per form- and a single permit form can be sent in for multiple animals This seems very reasonable to me

 

[Alexander1]

Get em miss lissa

 

[brownie64]

I agree that animals that shouldn't be kept as pets because they are dangerous to others such as alligators, venomous lizards, and snakes, or too large for a typical house hold like anacondas, articulated pythons, or tigers, and lions, and bears oh my. Should be subject to permits. However we need to be carful just how much of our liberties we give away once gone we usually don't get them back. I think it's called tyranny. How many of us would own our pets if we were subject to such strenuous regulations? Maybe pass a law where pet stores need to provide proper instruction before a sale, and not just push the animal off for profit. Yah I think we need to give education a try before everyone including responsible pet owners pay the price by loosing our privilege to own these marvelous animals.

 

[Carlton]

Of course the other large looming issue here is how little the pet retail industry does to produce, evaluate, or market the correct husbandry information and quit stocking the junk supplies that don't keep the animals healthy. What about educating their employees before they can sell to the public? Yes, most of the burden of proper care lies with the buyer, but they are more likely to be successful if they get the right information along with their impulse buy animal! This might even prevent some of this stupid purchasing if the information and the supplies give the buyer a stiff reality check (except the store won't like to lose a sale). Even photos of the correct type of housing an animal would require would help. You hear that some of the chain stores occasionally have little events about dog or cat care but nothing about the exotics. Why is that?

I remember when I worked part time at a local herp supply the owner occasionally hosted free evening get togethers that focused on care of a particular herp group...we did one for chams. I had a display setup, all the necessary supplies, information sheets and supply lists, and a pretty tolerant female veiled to drive the point home. It was a blast to do. That veiled got a great home at the end...one woman who attended bought the entire display. the supplies, feeders, etc. A year later she came in to the shop to show us one very healthy cham who had laid a clutch successfully.

 

[Alexander1]

like one of the members stated I believe it's a privilege to buy an animal not a right, the fact that you have to agree to take care of an animal before you buy it, the choice to say no is your right, the choice to take on the responsibility is a privilege that should NOT be given to anyone just because they feel it's their right, where talking about keeping any living thing,not a gun...

 

[Alexander1]

Some of the questions asked are not even asked in complete sentences, how can a person at that age deal with another life is beyond me

 

[MissLissa]

like one of the members stated I believe it's a privilege to buy an animal not a right, the fact that you have to agree to take care of an animal before you buy it, the choice to say no is your right, the choice to take on the responsibility is a privilege that should NOT be given to anyone just because they feel it's their right, where talking about keeping any living thing,not a gun...

In Canada, owning a gun is not a constitutional right This is all getting a bit political for me, though. Catch you guys laters!

 

[brownie64]

I can't recall how many times I have went to the zoning commission for a permit, and was told no initially because the zoning personal liked the power it gave them to say NO! only to have to work it all out later through a bunch of BS. Is that really what you want to deal with every time you want to purchase a new cham?

 

[Alexander1]

Before we deviate too far from the initial "rant" i was merely questioning the arrogance of us as consumers to treat these delicate creatures as if they where a material lifeless property, some selling and buying without any care of the animals quality of life, why should everything be so easy,l? especially when dealing with an animal that feels pain, hunger, or would suffer
I personally would go through the trouble if I really wanted it, I really think it would filter out people that don't honestly know what it takes to take care of an animal of such specific husbandry.
I'm not trying to infringe on anyone's rights or inconvenience anyone,as if an inconvenience was not worth all those animals lives. I personally think of the quality of life of my chameleon, in some aspects I feel more of a "servant" and "provider" to it because I have him caged up in my home. It was just a rant. I think people should have some idea of what it takes to take care of any animal BEFORE they take it home. Lucky for some, I'm not in charge.

 

[WilcoxAE]

Well, then let's get away from the subject of rights, liberties, political correctness, and everyone's butt-hurt feelings and focus on the real problem.

Obama. It's all his fault. Everything is his fault. Thanks, Obama.

I kid. But no really. The problem lies with our society. Man, @Alexander1, like you said before, the kid put the lizard in a bag and threw it in the garbage. A LIVING THING just thrown in the garbage. Children are just being brought up not to give a hoot about living things. We're being raised to pass tests, go to college, and work to pay off your debt but not really being driven from a young age to ya know, value what we have and learn to respect it and others. It's a societal problem. Like what, @MissLissa said. She's seen some animals come in to her facility in bad shape. People don't think of it as a living thing that lives, breathes, and feels. It's just another thing, like a phone. Break it carelessly and then replace it. Actually, I think more people take better care of their prized phones than an animal.

Society gets a pet, and complains about the poop. That is why animal shelters are overrun. We eat meat, but dare not inquire as to how it was killed or how badly it was treated or fed prior (and then tear apart hunters...). That is why people are getting cancer and girls at 8 have boobs bigger than a 30 year old pregnant woman. If we last another 100 years, it will be interesting to see what has happened to our brains...

Our priorities are messed up ya'll and it's gonna take one swift and painful kick in the @ss before the people of the world gets it. Until then, we can only do our part to do the right thing...and have society kick us in the @ss for doing so. Just the way this sick world is, yo.