Juvenile Veiled Bugs & Supplements

[stephski]

Hi all,

I was hoping I could get some opinions and answers on my little guy. This is my first reptile since losing my beardie to liver failure 3 years ago so I'm trying to be the best mom to my cham so he lives a healthy, happy life!
I have an approx 11 month old veiled chameleon named Johnny. He lives in a full screen enclosure with Pothos vines strung throughout the cage for lots of climbing areas. He also has a dracaena plant and a little bonsai tree to make it look a little cuter. I also have coconut husk for substrate to help retain humidity (I live in an extremely dry region in canada so the humidity is really poor) as well as he has an automatic mister on a timer that mists him throughout the day. His basking temps sit around 90-95F, and his humidity generally sits around 60-70%.
When he was younger, his main diet was crickets that we dusted every other feeding with calcium with d3 and a multi-vitamin once a week. The problem was that the crickets kept escaping and we (my dog and cat included) would find them hopping around the house, and I decided I couldn't do it anymore when a cricket jumped on my face while I was laying in bed. I was told by an old co-worker that I could give Johnny worms instead and never have to feed him crickets again, and also not needing to supplement anymore. I didn't realize that it sounded too good to be true, so I've been giving him a mixture of waxworms, silkworms, giant mealworms, and hornworms for the last 6 months. I stopped at a different pet store tonight for more worms, and was asking one of the employees about any kind of supplements or things I could use to gutload my worms with as I've been pretty paranoid about MBD. The guy was shocked that I have only been feeding only worms for this long (he's also pretty slender so I wasn't overly concerned about the high fat content in wax and horn worms) and he persuaded me to start feeding crickets again, gutloading and dusting as I was before.
He has a basking bulb that stays on for 12 hours, and a UVB bulb that also stays on for 12 hours, and I replace it every 6 months.
I've been seeing on the caresheets and other forums that d3 can be toxic in high amounts, and I don't have any calcium without d3. Should be concerned about the d3 and it potentially being toxic?
Is the coconut husk okay for him? The same coworker told me use it so I'm paranoid now. He sometimes digs at it when he wants attention (he loves being handled) and it kind of stains his legs and belly when it's moist, but other than that, it feels pretty soft and he doesn't seem to mind it.
Is there anything else I should be concerned about or watch out for? I have a few exotic vets in town but he's been really active and happy since I've had him so he's never actually been seen. Should I be taking him for annual examinations or deworming or anything else?
I really appreciate any suggestions or opinions! Again, first time mom to a chameleon so I want to make sure I'm doing all the right things for him and I thought some experienced keepers would be able to help us out.

Thanks everyone, and please let me know if you need to know anything else about his set-up or routine!

 

[andy27012]

You will get varying opinions on this but no I would not worry about getting calcium with out d3. I have been advised by a very large and reputable breeder that they continue to supplement their chams w/d3 on a daily basis and have for as long as they have been open. I personally don't use substrate because it is much easier to clean the cage. As far as humidity, it is important the animal be allowed periods to dry out, I live in an area where the a/c runs a lot and drys out the air. I mist 3x a day 3 minutes at a time and have a large potted plant and my guy does fine. It's important to understand these guys need periods of high humidity but keeping them in constant high humidity can lead to health issues. You are correct in your mbd concerns, I have been working around reptiles for fifteen years and dealing with them professionally fir the last five years, I have never seen a case of d3 overdose but have seen hundreds of cases of mbd.

 

[Remkon]

You will get varying opinions on this but no I would not worry about getting calcium with out d3. I have been advised by a very large and reputable breeder that they continue to supplement their chams w/d3 on a daily basis and have for as long as they have been open. I personally don't use substrate because it is much easier to clean the cage. As far as humidity, it is important the animal be allowed periods to dry out, I live in an area where the a/c runs a lot and drys out the air. I mist 3x a day 3 minutes at a time and have a large potted plant and my guy does fine. It's important to understand these guys need periods of high humidity but keeping them in constant high humidity can lead to health issues. You are correct in your mbd concerns, I have been working around reptiles for fifteen years and dealing with them professionally fir the last five years, I have never seen a case of d3 overdose but have seen hundreds of cases of mbd.

I think the problem is that you do not know how your reputable breeder doses their supplements... A lot of people dust their feeders to heavily which could eventually cause problems, especially if there's D3 in the supplement.
You also don't mention what supplements the breeder is using since the amount of D3 in supplements differs from brand to brand.
Since adding daily D3 doesn't have any positive effects while it can become dangerous if there's to much D3 in the body the safe thing to do is to use D3 sparingly.

Just because you have never seen a D3 overdose (how would you identify one without autopsy?) does not mean it doesn't happen and it also doesn't mean that there aren't other, related, issues that will occur when there's to much D3 in the body.
Of the hundreds of cases of MBD most are related to inexperience of the keeper and improper UVB lighting and/or not using calcium supplements at all.

 

[Remkon]

To add to the previous, I did a quick google..
Overdose of D3 can result in calcium deposition on soft tissue like kidneys, lungs, heart, and artery's and eventually arteriosclerosis and damage to kidneys and even kidney failure.

To identify a D3 overdose a bloodtest is required.

 

[andy27012]

To add to the previous, I did a quick google..
Overdose of D3 can result in calcium deposition on soft tissue like kidneys, lungs, heart, and artery's and eventually arteriosclerosis and damage to kidneys and even kidney failure.

To identify a D3 overdose a bloodtest is required.

Kind of my point, with out a blood test it is impossible to determine cause of death of the animal. I personally (and I am not alone) have never seen or known anyone who's seen a verified instance of, the animal was taken to the vet and it was confirmed that d3 was an issue. I have seen several animals that have been imported who may go into kidney failure after being brought in but that doesn't mean they were over supplemented. Without an official biopsy I would guess the severe dehydration endured during there trip here is a much more likely culprit and probably damaged their kidneys. Kidneys are neither linear nor timely in their degradation, think of them as sponges. Once it gets a little dirty it traps stuff really quickly which is why a ltc can suddenly develop Gular edema and everyone's blaming supplements. I have been using several well known supplements in the last fifteen years of dealing with reptiles and have never had an issue (they happen to have the highest and lowest levels of d3. I have a friend who is a vet that has told me he has never seen an instance of d3 poisoning, You are correct that some of these may come from under supplementation or unacceptable uvb levels, however with the prominents of mbd in this community it seems foolish to make up stuff that would discourage supplementation because there are maybe one or two confirmed instances of it. But hell, you probably read it somewhere so now you know what your talking about, just like you googled d3 overdose to become an expert on that. You say there are no positives to d3 but that is not true, it is used in calcium absorption and either produced naturally through uvb exposure or supplementation. Low levels of d3 affect the body's access to calcium causing loss of muscle control, I.e heart attack, inability to breath/function so d3 avalaibility is crucial. Imo had individuals been supplementing w/d3 more frequently it may have prevented some mbd cases as the lighting would not have been as critical. I have, written directions on how they supplement their animals and have been doing for the last eight years w/d3 and produced more animals than either you or I will combined. There doing something right. At the same time, if op said they were ghosting there feeders, yes cut that back to once a week or dust lightly. End of the day, neither can prove we're right or wrong, I will say up until five years ago no one ever mentioned d3 and I saw LOTS of healthy well cared for chams. In another five years the thought process will change and no one will give feeding d3 everyday a second thought.

 

[Remkon]

You say there are no positives to d3 but that is not true, it is used in calcium absorption and either produced naturally through uvb exposure or supplementation.

I ment to say that there is no reason to supplement D3 daily assuming your chameleon get's proper UVB lighting.

End of the day, neither can prove we're right or wrong, I will say up until five years ago no one ever mentioned d3 and I saw LOTS of healthy well cared for chams. In another five years the thought process will change and no one will give feeding d3 everyday a second thought.

I don't think either of us is wrong, I think there are many ways to keep a healthy reptile with or without supplementing D3...
You're right that D3 is a 'new' thing but apparently people researched it and concluded it could do more harm than good in to large amounts.

I still stand by using D3 sparingly, especially when you're new to reptiles I think the safest way is to stick with a concept that works and is with as little risk as possible. (like the caresheets from this site)

I'd like to think that in 5 years all supplements and techniques have become much better and D3 is no longer an issue at all...

 

[Chachi]

Hi all,

I was hoping I could get some opinions and answers on my little guy. This is my first reptile since losing my beardie to liver failure 3 years ago so I'm trying to be the best mom to my cham so he lives a healthy, happy life!
I have an approx 11 month old veiled chameleon named Johnny. He lives in a full screen enclosure with Pothos vines strung throughout the cage for lots of climbing areas. He also has a dracaena plant and a little bonsai tree to make it look a little cuter. I also have coconut husk for substrate to help retain humidity (I live in an extremely dry region in canada so the humidity is really poor) as well as he has an automatic mister on a timer that mists him throughout the day. His basking temps sit around 90-95F, and his humidity generally sits around 60-70%.
When he was younger, his main diet was crickets that we dusted every other feeding with calcium with d3 and a multi-vitamin once a week. The problem was that the crickets kept escaping and we (my dog and cat included) would find them hopping around the house, and I decided I couldn't do it anymore when a cricket jumped on my face while I was laying in bed. I was told by an old co-worker that I could give Johnny worms instead and never have to feed him crickets again, and also not needing to supplement anymore. I didn't realize that it sounded too good to be true, so I've been giving him a mixture of waxworms, silkworms, giant mealworms, and hornworms for the last 6 months. I stopped at a different pet store tonight for more worms, and was asking one of the employees about any kind of supplements or things I could use to gutload my worms with as I've been pretty paranoid about MBD. The guy was shocked that I have only been feeding only worms for this long (he's also pretty slender so I wasn't overly concerned about the high fat content in wax and horn worms) and he persuaded me to start feeding crickets again, gutloading and dusting as I was before.
He has a basking bulb that stays on for 12 hours, and a UVB bulb that also stays on for 12 hours, and I replace it every 6 months.
I've been seeing on the caresheets and other forums that d3 can be toxic in high amounts, and I don't have any calcium without d3. Should be concerned about the d3 and it potentially being toxic?
Is the coconut husk okay for him? The same coworker told me use it so I'm paranoid now. He sometimes digs at it when he wants attention (he loves being handled) and it kind of stains his legs and belly when it's moist, but other than that, it feels pretty soft and he doesn't seem to mind it.
Is there anything else I should be concerned about or watch out for? I have a few exotic vets in town but he's been really active and happy since I've had him so he's never actually been seen. Should I be taking him for annual examinations or deworming or anything else?
I really appreciate any suggestions
Also, or opinions! Again, first time mom to a chameleon so I want to make sure I'm doing all the right things for him and I thought some experienced keepers would be able to help us out.

Thanks everyone, and please let me know if you need to know anything else about his set-up or routine!

I would be afraid to use the coconut stuff. I mean, what if he gets it stuck to his tongue and gets some in his throat? You know, theres always the what ifs...our very first cham died of a splinter in his tongue. Yep, a damned splinter cause we wanted a real slick looking cage. So we had one and we killed our beautiful Benny. Besides that red dye worries me. Its probably safe, but.....i wouldnt do it if just because of Benny.
Repashy has some stuff that everybody swears by called calcium plus. A lot of people just use it cause the amounts of everything are geared for chams. You dont need to mix and match. Everyone who knows says Repashy is an excellent product. I ordered some to check it out and maybe somebody on here will throw in some other thought.
Also, you need to take a fecal sample in and get a parasite check. Sometimes. Its just good husbandry to make sure no little monsters have gotten into his gut.
Ya no, feed him worms except the mealworms cause experts say they cause empaction. When i heard that more than a dozen times, i just steer clear. But, crickets are good. I personally pull their legs off cause of the pointyness of them and the chance it could hurt their tongues.
I also feed mine super worms but i smash thei heads right before i feed them so they dont bite. I sound like a maniac, huh.
Thats my take on your questions. Good, good luck. Remember, you gotta be an expert in everything to be an amateur cham owner.