Kailie, the tongueless chameleon

[KailieBug]

The Colors of Kailie! Tomorrow will be 6 weeks since she lost her tongue. She is really thriving!! She still won't eat independently, I have a feeder in her cage, similar to the shooting gallery, and I leave Dubia roaches in all day, but she won't touch them. However, when I take her out, she will open her mouth to the touch of my finger, and allow me to place bugs inside. Still trying to figure out nutrition - she can't manage crickets anymore, as they are far too jumpy for me to actually get them in her mouth. Soldier fly larvae come out the other end still whole. Mostly she's been eating meal worms, with an odd horn worm here and there. She is definitely gaining too much weight though. I finally managed to find some Dubia roaches last week (they're hard to get in Canada, and super expensive!) I'll be trying to breed the Dubias for her, for more sustainable food. So until my colony is self sustaining, I'm only giving about 3 roaches every 5 days or so right now. I hope to make the roaches her staple food soon.
She is alllll about water now, it's funny to watch. When her mister goes off in the evening, she starts going to town licking all her leaves. Never saw her so it before she lost her tongue. We moved her into her new cage a few weeks ago, and she is absolutely loving it! I was so worried about her, but she's turned into such a happy little girl.

 

[Beman]

Are you able to get silkworms there? These are a great source of nutrition.

Why do you think she is gaining too much weight? Physically there is no sign of her being overweight. She actually is a bit on the thinner side. I would feed her more frequently. Every 5 days is a bit spaced out. I would do every 3 days 3-4 insects each feeding. She will need the nutrition to heal. Make sure you keep basking temps max 80 for her. This lower temp combined with the feeding 3-4 feeders every 3 days is going to help control her clutch sizes.

Are you fogging at night to help with hydration?

 

[KailieBug]

Are you able to get silkworms there? These are a great source of nutrition.

Why do you think she is gaining too much weight? Physically there is no sign of her being overweight. She actually is a bit on the thinner side. I would feed her more frequently. Every 5 days is a bit spaced out. I would do every 3 days 3-4 insects each feeding. She will need the nutrition to heal. Make sure you keep basking temps max 80 for her. This lower temp combined with the feeding 3-4 feeders every 3 days is going to help control her clutch sizes.

Are you fogging at night to help with hydration?

I haven't found any silkworms. It seems that our stores here mostly carry meal worms, wax worms, soldier fly larvae, night crawlers and horn worms. I could try to see if I can find some online though.
I'm feeding her every day! She is currently getting 5 meal worms a day, and 3 roaches about every 5 days.
She was 30 g at time of injury - and the vet felt that she was a little chubby at that time. It's been 6 weeks, and she's now 40 g, which I feel is quite the weight jump in a short amount of time. She hasn't had a shed yet since injury, but she shed just a couple of days before injury. She is now about 8.5 months old.
Basking temp is 28C, which is about 82F.
We mist 3 times daily, and fog at night, and her waste looks great for hydration.

 

[Beman]

I haven't found any silkworms. It seems that our stores here mostly carry meal worms, wax worms, soldier fly larvae, night crawlers and horn worms. I could try to see if I can find some online though.
I'm feeding her every day! She is currently getting 5 meal worms a day, and 3 roaches about every 5 days.
She was 30 g at time of injury - and the vet felt that she was a little chubby at that time. It's been 6 weeks, and she's now 40 g, which I feel is quite the weight jump in a short amount of time. She hasn't had a shed yet since injury, but she shed just a couple of days before injury. She is now about 8.5 months old.
Basking temp is 28C, which is about 82F.
We mist 3 times daily, and fog at night, and her waste looks great for hydration.

So a typical weight for a female that is not producing eggs is right around 50-70 grams depending on overall length tip of nose to end of tail. 30 grams would be very low. And 40grams for being almost 9 months is a bit lower.

You will want to reduce the basking temp a few degrees for a female you really want it 78-80max. Clutch size for them is a big deal. Too many and they can have major complications trying to lay their eggs.

What are your night time temps running when you fog? Reason I am asking is without a tongue she does not have the same ability to drink water. The fact that she is actively trying to drink without a tongue means she is needing the hydration. Her turrets are a bit sunk in as well. Not quite as full as you would want to see. Now this could be because she is still healing but it can be linked to both dehydration and illness. With her lip line still being swollen and not shutting completely my concern would be if she has any sort of mouth infection going on right now that should be treated.

 

[elizaann2]

I'm so happy to hear she is eating and doing better! Thank you for the update

 

[KailieBug]

So a typical weight for a female that is not producing eggs is right around 50-70 grams depending on overall length tip of nose to end of tail. 30 grams would be very low. And 40grams for being almost 9 months is a bit lower.

You will want to reduce the basking temp a few degrees for a female you really want it 78-80max. Clutch size for them is a big deal. Too many and they can have major complications trying to lay their eggs.

What are your night time temps running when you fog? Reason I am asking is without a tongue she does not have the same ability to drink water. The fact that she is actively trying to drink without a tongue means she is needing the hydration. Her turrets are a bit sunk in as well. Not quite as full as you would want to see. Now this could be because she is still healing but it can be linked to both dehydration and illness. With her lip line still being swollen and not shutting completely my concern would be if she has any sort of mouth infection going on right now that should be treated.

Thanks for this! When she was injured, the vet said her belly was "a bit fuller than I would expect", and that she could probably stand to loose a couple of grams, so I was really concerned when she started gaining weight so quickly. I'll increase her food a little bit until I get her weight up a bit.

Her light sits directly on top of her cage, so to lower basking temp, I should lower her basking branch a bit, correct? That should be an easy enough fix.

For the lip line, I think it's because we were still using the syringe to open her mouth until just a couple of days ago, so I feel like her poor little lips were bruised. It's only in the last 3 - 4 days that she has started opening her mouth just to the touch of my finger, rather than having to force her to open it with the syringe. I'll get another pic after work tonight, but I do think her lips are looking better now.

There is another odd thing about her eyes too. Her left eye is swollen in the corner, and has been for several months. The vet cannot find a reason for it - he cannot see any retained shed in her eyes, he's happy with her vitamin supplementation. He did give her 2 shots of vitamin A, in case it was a deficiency, but nothing changed. He was not concerned about it at all, and felt that if it wasn't bothering her, we should just let it be.

 

[KailieBug]

Oh, night time temps, missed that part! To be honest, I'm not actually sure. We cover her cage at night, as she is in the living room, and room lights are on well past her bedtime. When her light goes out, I put the cover on, and I don't take it off again until morning. I will try to remember to look tonight.

 

[Beman]

Thanks for this! When she was injured, the vet said her belly was "a bit fuller than I would expect", and that she could probably stand to loose a couple of grams, so I was really concerned when she started gaining weight so quickly. I'll increase her food a little bit until I get her weight up a bit.

Her light sits directly on top of her cage, so to lower basking temp, I should lower her basking branch a bit, correct? That should be an easy enough fix.

For the lip line, I think it's because we were still using the syringe to open her mouth until just a couple of days ago, so I feel like her poor little lips were bruised. It's only in the last 3 - 4 days that she has started opening her mouth just to the touch of my finger, rather than having to force her to open it with the syringe. I'll get another pic after work tonight, but I do think her lips are looking better now.

There is another odd thing about her eyes too. Her left eye is swollen in the corner, and has been for several months. The vet cannot find a reason for it - he cannot see any retained shed in her eyes, he's happy with her vitamin supplementation. He did give her 2 shots of vitamin A, in case it was a deficiency, but nothing changed. He was not concerned about it at all, and felt that if it wasn't bothering her, we should just let it be.

Oh, night time temps, missed that part! To be honest, I'm not actually sure. We cover her cage at night, as she is in the living room, and room lights are on well past her bedtime. When her light goes out, I put the cover on, and I don't take it off again until morning. I will try to remember to look tonight.

Ok that makes more sense about her lip line. Just really watch it and make sure the swelling goes down. If it gets worse or if it looks infected red or pussy then there is an infection going on.

So for the branch under the heat yes you can lower it. Branch under UVB has to be a specific distance based on the type of fixture and bulb strength you have.

Do not let the vet give any more vitamin A shots. These are fat soluble and can be harmful because there is the potential with vitamin A and D3 to overdose. Both store in the body and can take months for the levels to reduce.

Can you tell me about her normal supplementation you do on the insects? What types your using and the frequency. The eye could be due to incorrect supplementation. Could be infection and could be she had at some point gotten something stuck in it. If something is stuck you would want to provide some longer misting sessions to see if her cleaning the eye turret helps clear it. If infection then we are back to giving antibiotics. If supplement issue then we have to correct the supplementation.

Since you are fogging night time temps are important to know. This should only be done if temps are below 67 or cooler. The cooler the better with fogging. Otherwise you are risking her developing a respiratory infection.

When you say you cover the cage at night. Are you covering the entire thing? If so you do not want to do this as there will be severely reduced air flow. This then can lead to other health issues especially if you are fogging.

I would just not use overhead lights and put a black out curtain up around the cage leaving the top of the cage where the lights are and the bottom service door open so that there is airflow via the chimney effect.

 

[KailieBug]

Ok that makes more sense about her lip line. Just really watch it and make sure the swelling goes down. If it gets worse or if it looks infected red or pussy then there is an infection going on.

So for the branch under the heat yes you can lower it. Branch under UVB has to be a specific distance based on the type of fixture and bulb strength you have.

Do not let the vet give any more vitamin A shots. These are fat soluble and can be harmful because there is the potential with vitamin A and D3 to overdose. Both store in the body and can take months for the levels to reduce.

Can you tell me about her normal supplementation you do on the insects? What types your using and the frequency. The eye could be due to incorrect supplementation. Could be infection and could be she had at some point gotten something stuck in it. If something is stuck you would want to provide some longer misting sessions to see if her cleaning the eye turret helps clear it. If infection then we are back to giving antibiotics. If supplement issue then we have to correct the supplementation.

Since you are fogging night time temps are important to know. This should only be done if temps are below 67 or cooler. The cooler the better with fogging. Otherwise you are risking her developing a respiratory infection.

When you say you cover the cage at night. Are you covering the entire thing? If so you do not want to do this as there will be severely reduced air flow. This then can lead to other health issues especially if you are fogging.

I would just not use overhead lights and put a black out curtain up around the cage leaving the top of the cage where the lights are and the bottom service door open so that there is airflow via the chimney effect.

The vitamin A shots were a few weeks before she lost her tongue, as her eye has been like this for about... 3 or 4 months now? She was given 2 shots 10 days apart, and no more since it didn't help. She has had antibiotics since then, due to the tongue loss, which also didn't have an impact on her eye.

Supplementation - I was dusting her food daily with repti calcium, but I've noticed her nostrils are white now, which I believe can mean over supplementation, so I've brought that down to twice weekly for the last 3 weeks. Once every two weeks I dust with Reptivite with D3.

Covering the cage - we put a tablecloth over top. It covers the top part of the cage, and leaves about 18 inches near the bottom uncovered. This keeps her cage nicely dark.

 

[Beman]

The vitamin A shots were a few weeks before she lost her tongue, as her eye has been like this for about... 3 or 4 months now? She was given 2 shots 10 days apart, and no more since it didn't help. She has had antibiotics since then, due to the tongue loss, which also didn't have an impact on her eye.

Supplementation - I was dusting her food daily with repti calcium, but I've noticed her nostrils are white now, which I believe can mean over supplementation, so I've brought that down to twice weekly for the last 3 weeks. Once every two weeks I dust with Reptivite with D3.

Covering the cage - we put a tablecloth over top. It covers the top part of the cage, and leaves about 18 inches near the bottom uncovered. This keeps her cage nicely dark.

So the plain calcium does it have D3 in it or is it without D3?

The white around the nostrils is normal and can have more to do with the type of water you are using. If you are using tap water this has a lot of extra stuff added to it. Creates a dusting when you fog as well and can have this build up on the outside of the nose. This does not have to do with supplementation. you want to keep supplementing at all feedings as this balances the phosphorus to calcium level of the insects.

When you go to bed at night I would remove the tablecloth so there is full circulation with the top being covered there is no way for air to fully circulate through out the cage. This will create stagnant air which is not healthy for them to sit and breathe in.

 

[KailieBug]

Plain calcium is without D3.

Will do for the supplementation, and the tablecloth. Note on the temperature - the house is typically at 21C at night (70F), so I can't see the temp in the cage being any lower than that. In this case, should I stop fogging at night, and increase misting during the day? I find humidity hard to maintain in our house, it's quite dry. Between mistings, the humidity in the cage is usually only at 30.

 

[Beman]

Plain calcium is without D3.

Will do for the supplementation, and the tablecloth. Note on the temperature - the house is typically at 21C at night (70F), so I can't see the temp in the cage being any lower than that. In this case, should I stop fogging at night, and increase misting during the day? I find humidity hard to maintain in our house, it's quite dry. Between mistings, the humidity in the cage is usually only at 30.

So you would want to reduce the temp in the house at night by dropping down your thermostat. This way the house is cooler which will make her enclosure cooler. Then continue to fog at night. Fogging is going to be the easiest way for her to hydrate right now without the use of a tongue.

To help control your gradients in the cage for temp and humidity you can get corrugated plastic sheets. They come in a 4x8ft sheet and are super easy to cut down to make panels to go on the back and two sides of the cage. Then you leave the entire front of the cage open. This is going to help trap humidity and balance out your daytime and night time levels. Also it will protect your walls from over spray.

 

[kinyonga]

The tongue is stored on the hyoid spike/horn…so even when the tongue is lost, there is still the spike to stick out….you can see the part of the tongue/spike in the photo in this site…
http://reptilis.net/lacertilia/chamaeleonidae/tongue.html

One more…
https://www.madcham.de/en/der-zungenschuss/

You said…” I was dusting her food daily with repti calcium, but I've noticed her nostrils are white now, which I believe can mean over supplementation”…the white around the nostril, which we call snalt, is not from over supplementation with calcium. It’s other salts that the chameleon is trying to get rid of. The calcium should be dusted on all feedings lightly but the two a month that a vitamin powder with D3 and prEformed vitaminA in it, is used lightly.
This might be of interest to you…
https://www.chameleonforums.com/thr...-cause-of-the-white-crusts-on-the-nose.75998/

You might like to read the part of this next one that deals with vitamin D3 and vitamin A…especially the conclusions…
http://www.uvma.org/chameleon/vitaminA.htm