Keeping My Chameleon Warm in The Winter?

[PetNcs]

Btw I'm not arguing or taking sides with anyone. I'm all for whatever works for people. I just think the topic of night drop is interesting.

Petr, you have to remember, we're not your students or paid researchers or whatever... we're all regular people with our own difficult lives. Many here already make a bigger leap than most coming to an online community to learn more. Give people the benefit. If you care about chameleons so much, you'll understand that the last they want to hear is someone yelling at them condescendingly after they got off of work, school, etc.

Fair enough
I already apologized several times
Help me to understand how to stop ppl (andnI talk theoretically,
Notmoffending noone here, who are always the same) giving wrong advice and not being oerceived rude.
I am stranded really.

 

[PetNcs]

Until there is evidence that me keeping mine at a night time temp of 60-65 is killing them I choose not to drop it further. I mimic as close to their natural conditions as possible. You know this because you know me well and you know that I worry about every single detail. But as I had said to each their own. There is a reason I don't have Jackson's and Parsons... I do not have the conditions to provide what they need.

But I am also not ok with being told I am an idiot or the insinuation that I am killing my chameleons. This is something that Mr. Necas likes to do and I am pretty much over it.

Beman, I did never say younsre an idiot, i talked generically -!: I have explicitely apologized if this was misunderstood as I did notmsay neithernI meant it like this.
I repeat: I did not mean you and I am sorry and apologizenifnit was misunderstood like rhat.

 

[PetNcs]

Yup mind did this, most of fall all the way into mid spring. Ate nothing, rarely moved. He seemed to avoid the UVB at this time and sat under plants for days/weeks. Thoughts?

Brumation mode, typical signs
Absolutely physiological

 

[PabloTheCham]

@PetNcs I'm on your side now in the sense that I feel you are making an effort to not be rude and help the community

 

[jamest0o0]

Brumation mode, typical signs
Absolutely physiological

I meant the UVB. In the wild, would they avoid the sun during these times?

 

[jamest0o0]

Until there is evidence that me keeping mine at a night time temp of 60-65 is killing them I choose not to drop it further. I mimic as close to their natural conditions as possible. You know this because you know me well and you know that I worry about every single detail. But as I had said to each their own. There is a reason I don't have Jackson's and Parsons... I do not have the conditions to provide what they need.

But I am also not ok with being told I am an idiot or the insinuation that I am killing my chameleons. This is something that Mr. Necas likes to do and I am pretty much over it.

Yeah I get ya. I wasn't criticizing you in the least. I mean it more as, i personally wouldn't worry unless my temps were consistently low 40s. Like you said, we don't really know for certain so I can't say much about it. I do think 65 would be on the high end of it was all year. I like mine to be warm in the summer, cooler in the winter. To me this makes the most sense.

One thing I'd stress is for people(not saying anyone is here) to resist the urge to relate temperatures with reptiles by how we feel them. I believe it to be much different and it would make sense why a certain level of night drop is important with how their metabolism works

 

[PetNcs]

I meant the UVB. In the wild, would they avoid the sun during these times?

Yes tjey would sit deep on shade in a canopy and get low UV rates or they would even dig themselves into leaf litter and avoid it fully (known from dilepis, perarmata, labordi, verrucosus, calyptratus...)
As rheir metabolism will be slowed down and they will not digest Anytjing, also
D3 syntbesis and calcium metabolism will dramatically reduce or even stop...

 

[jamest0o0]

Yes tjey would sit deep on shade in a canopy and get low UV rates or they would even dig themselves into leaf litter and avoid it fully (known from dilepis, perarmata, labordi, verrucosus, calyptratus...)
As rheir metabolism will be slowed down and they will not digest Anytjing, also
D3 syntbesis and calcium metabolism will dramatically reduce or even stop...

Makes sense to me, thanks for explaining.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Serious question @PetNcs - doesn’t the range of veiled chameleons extend through a decent part of Yemen or is it only in a very small isolated region? Seems like there’s a decent amount of geographical and elevation variation or is it all the exact same climate across their entire range?

For example, eastern box turtles in the US have a range that extends from northern Florida (tropical climate that rarely sees cold temperatures) all the way to Maine and Michigan that see extreme and long winters that necessitate months of brumation. No studies to my knowledge have seen any differences in lifespans of this species despite vast differences in climates and temperature ranges experienced between the north and south extents of their range. So my question is, aren’t there climate differences across the range that have different night temperatures and if there are, have there been studies documenting differences in lifespans reflecting these climate regions? 5-10 degrees difference at night seems like a very minimal factor that would extend a chameleon’s lifespan up to 10 years. But that would be really interesting if that’s been documented in this species.

 

[Mrjamwin]

What kind of Chameleon do you have?

 

[PetNcs]

Until there is evidence that me keeping mine at a night time temp of 60-65 is killing them I choose not to drop it further. I mimic as close to their natural conditions as possible. You know this because you know me well and you know that I worry about every single detail. But as I had said to each their own. There is a reason I don't have Jackson's and Parsons... I do not have the conditions to provide what they need.

But I am also not ok with being told I am an idiot or the insinuation that I am killing my chameleons. This is something that Mr. Necas likes to do and I am pretty much over it.

Just consider that 60-65 dehrees night drop isnin dact the maximum nighttime temoerature they get in the wild. Almost always it is lower. Just for you not to be afraid to go lower, as rheir lowest is 30degrees lower (which I do not suggest of course,
As thisnis at their lethal margin). So,
Once again, in rhe WARMEST months, rhey get nighttime temps around what you have.
Just informing, not
Pushing anything

 

[Panther678]

So I'm guessing your saying it's like a tortise they need to hibernate in the winter months some people choose to do it others dont but they live longer healthier lives if they are hibernated. I'm not taking sides.

 

[PetNcs]

Serious question @PetNcs - doesn’t the range of veiled chameleons extend through a decent part of Yemen or is it only in a very small isolated region? Seems like there’s a decent amount of geographical and elevation variation or is it all the exact same climate across their entire range?

For example, eastern box turtles in the US have a range that extends from northern Florida (tropical climate that rarely sees cold temperatures) all the way to Maine and Michigan that see extreme and long winters that necessitate months of brumation. No studies to my knowledge have seen any differences in lifespans of this species despite vast differences in climates and temperature ranges experienced between the north and south extents of their range. So my question is, aren’t there climate differences across the range that have different night temperatures and if there are, have there been studies documenting differences in lifespans reflecting these climate regions? 5-10 degrees difference at night seems like a very minimal factor that would extend a chameleon’s lifespan up to 10 years. But that would be really interesting if that’s been documented in this species.

As you know, it has almost always been Impossible to do any research in Yemen so there is no info available other than the scars sources that I have collected within my year stay in Yemen plus fuel records of my colleagues that I have access to.
The whole captive population that we have now in captivity originates from the area between Ibb and Yarim And they’re in the climate i present.
They are distributed across the Yemen Highlands in several enclaves, i know about six of them. All are situated at same altitude and same climate as the mentioned area.
The altitudinal range reaches from 1400m as lowest extreme (I have found one soecimen only, probably washed from higher altitudes by rain, to 2500m.
Ibb lays at 2000m.

My firm belief that high temperatures shorten the life are based on captive data off myself and off of the codex. When I kept them at temperatures usually recommended in the US they Earely exeeded five years Of age, shile when I simulated the low night drops in the 50s and include it simulation off the winter time, they exceed 12years. Same fits for the longevity records from Germany and Southern Africa.
Such observations cannot be done nowadays in the wild because due to heavy landscape change, they do not live in the original biotopes. Therefore they cannot efficiently a height in the leaf litter and are predated usually before the end of their 1st season. If you simulate the winter time properly they easily brumatr and survive many years.

 

[PetNcs]

So I'm guessing your saying it's like a tortise they need to hibernate in the winter months some people choose to do it others dont but they live longer healthier lives if they are hibernated. I'm not taking sides.

What I say is
Sort of brumation and inactivec state is absokutely natural for them and to provide it prolongs their life significantly
They survive even without but it is unnatural
And it shortens their lives

The nitmal way hoe they are nowadays treated in xaltivity is to simulate their a solutely warmest periods in the year and even higher. It soeeds their metabolism,
Forces them to reproduce 3-4times a year and exhausts them to death within few years, when they die with signs if old age that should come
A decade later...

 

[PetNcs]

Until there is evidence that me keeping mine at a night time temp of 60-65 is killing them I choose not to drop it further. I mimic as close to their natural conditions as possible. You know this because you know me well and you know that I worry about every single detail. But as I had said to each their own. There is a reason I don't have Jackson's and Parsons... I do not have the conditions to provide what they need.

But I am also not ok with being told I am an idiot or the insinuation that I am killing my chameleons. This is something that Mr. Necas likes to do and I am pretty much over it.

I kindly ask yiu to read
My personal Message to you, I want to apologize for me being a bad boy and rectify some misunderstanding in an extent possible. Please
Accept
My apologies

 

[Beman]

I kindly ask yiu to read
My personal Message to you, I want to apologize for me being a bad boy and rectify some misunderstanding in an extent possible. Please
Accept
My apologies

I have read your message and I accept your apology. If you could just conduct yourself without the disparaging remarks towards other members as you did when the young girl asking for advice requested of you then you would get a much calmer and receptive response from the members here.

Kindness costs us nothing. In this world of anger and hatred the only thing we have left is how we treat one another. You do not know us or me. You do not know that I work 50 hours a week, am a single mother, and care for my mother who lives with my daughter and I. You do not know that my only motivation in spending my time here is to ensure that the newbies get correct information and really understand what they are getting into when they get a chameleon. I too want chameleons to thrive in homes and want the keepers to know correct husbandry to be able to provide what they need. I mentor new keepers and I am extremely active here with the only desire to be of assistance to new keepers that are confused and don't know what to follow.

So in the future you don't need to candy coat anything... but you should change your verbiage and approach. And remember kindness costs you nothing.

 

[Mawtyplant]

AND AGAIN!!!!! They are young and here to learn. So say his bedroom gets down to 35-40 degrees one night that is acceptable to you for a chameleon. COME ON Petr!!!
And I gotta say l hate how you say they thrive in Florida... Reptiles including iguanas and chameleons were falling out of trees this past January because it was so cold. But this is thriving right?
You do this every single time you come into a thread. Thanks for calling us idiots by the way... Really gives me that desire to learn from you.

Pardon me.. beside all the chameleon fight? how can you sleep with ambiant room temperature at 35-40? this sound unbelivable!

For the rest, i personally experienced strong night drop with my chameleons and it was actually really benefit for my chameleons (not only for my mountains) so 55-60 to me sound good during the night (but ive experiences much colder than that due to the fact im also keeping mountain sp. and there no way i will stay in this room during the night)
Not here to fight, only to share btw! take it or leave it

Where do you live exactly?

 

[Beman]

Pardon me.. beside all the chameleon fight? how can you sleep with ambiant room temperature at 35-40? this sound unbelivable!

For the rest, i personally experienced strong night drop with my chameleons and it was actually really benefit for my chameleons (not only for my mountains) so 55-60 to me sound good during the night (but ive experiences much colder than that due to the fact im also keeping mountain sp. and there no way i will stay in this room during the night)
Not here to fight, only to share btw! take it or leave it

Where do you live exactly?

The OP does not have central heat and their mom will not allow a radiant heater in the room. I grew up in the South. Alabama and North Carolina. You can get some intense cold snaps there. So being able to provide heat is something to consider when you can get those freezing temps.

I live about an hour away from the Oregon border on the coast. I have no problem with it dropping 50-60. I just don't do that for my Veileds intentionally. The coldest I let it drop is 60. I was not the one that said they could not handle temps below 60 that was another member. But I share a room with mine and I am not sleeping in temps that cold either. Which is why I do not have mountain species because I don't have a separate room for them to get the required temp drops.

I do agree that temp drops are important. But most people do not have the ability to have their temps drop to 50-60 degrees. I think that most are lucky if theirs drop to 65 with central heating and the fact that most keepers do not have a separate room for a single chameleon.

 

[Mawtyplant]

The OP does not have central heat and their mom will not allow a radiant heater in the room. I grew up in the South. Alabama and North Carolina. You can get some intense cold snaps there. So being able to provide heat is something to consider when you can get those freezing temps.

I live about an hour away from the Oregon border on the coast. I have no problem with it dropping 50-60. I just don't do that for my Veileds intentionally. The coldest I let it drop is 60. I was not the one that said they could not handle temps below 60 that was another member. But I share a room with mine and I am not sleeping in temps that cold either. Which is why I do not have mountain species because I don't have a separate room for them to get the required temp drops.

I do agree that temp drops are important. But most people do not have the ability to have their temps drop to 50-60 degrees. I think that most are lucky if theirs drop to 65 with central heating and the fact that most keepers do not have a separate room for a single chameleon.

yeah but! human sleeping at 35-40? even me.. im from quebec and i find this is "not cool" (or too cool..)

 

[Beman]

yeah but! human sleeping at 35-40? even me.. im from quebec and i find this is "not cool" (or too cool..)

LOL and I totally agree. But it can happen when you do not have central heat. I use a portable radiant heater because we only have one gas heater as the main source of heat for the house... Granted we do not see freezing temps where I am very often at all. But during winter we get down to 40 pretty often which lowers my indoor temps to about 45 so I have to warm it back up a bit so I don't freeze. And since we do not have air conditioning in the summer months I open windows at night to cool down and then let temps rise during the day then open windows to cool down pattern every single day lol.