VeiledGirl
New Member
I use distilled water
Kidney and Liver Failure. PLEASE HELP!!
- Thread starter VeiledGirl
- Start date
I use distilled water
PardalisGirl
Avid Member
Oh my.........
Oh my..........your first vet was not qualified to treat reptiles. She/he was right about low blood calcium. Your supplementation product does not include everything your Veileds need, especially a gravid female. That X-ray is good enough to show that she is indeed gravid. That was a legitimate issue to address. There seems to be nothing to support the use of Metronidazole or Panacur. Your male's puffy eyes don't indicate worms like that vet said. And I'm not sure why your vet would prescribe Metronidazole unless a fecal was done to show trichamonas or other protozoans. It's hard on the kidneys. And to pair it with Baytril? Baytril is also hard on the kidneys. I give my chams extra hydration manually with a syringe if they are on that drug.
Sores on the feet like that are normally associated with reptiles who spend a lot of time in moist bacteria laden substrate. Not something you normally would see on a chameleon. It could be the result of a compromised immune system. The feet are one of the few body parts that come into contact with the flexible branches you seem to use. That stuff is rough to the touch. This would not normally be a problem. Maybe it caused enough abrasive action to cause an infection in a chameleon with a compromised immune system. Or if your humidity is really that high all the time maybe it is a moisture/bacteria issue. I'm sure this is why the Baytril was prescribed. It would have been better to figure the source of the sores out first.
I do think you have a problem of prolonged dehydration which is an underlying issue. Your temperatures are much too high. I use that same Mercury Vapor lamp on a huge floor to ceiling cage for my iguanas. It's way to hot for your chams. Your 95 basking and 75 bottom cage daytime temperatures were baking them. I've seen puffy eyes on dehydrated chameleons. They later sink in when things get really bad. The puffyness may make it hard to focus when trying to shoot at food.
I'm glad you got a new vet. I'd cut the temperatures, get humidity so that it is high after misting and dries out in between and is not high at night. I would add additional hydration by syringe once a day if you can become comfortable in doing it. I'm not sure how far the eggs are developed but you have to get that females calcium issue solved so she can lay them.
Can we get pictures of your total cage set-ups for both of them? I'm hoping we can figure out how she got the sores on her feet. One picture shows fluid weeping from a sore. What is the screening made from? Does it have anything that could cut or snag her skin on it?
Oh my..........your first vet was not qualified to treat reptiles. She/he was right about low blood calcium. Your supplementation product does not include everything your Veileds need, especially a gravid female. That X-ray is good enough to show that she is indeed gravid. That was a legitimate issue to address. There seems to be nothing to support the use of Metronidazole or Panacur. Your male's puffy eyes don't indicate worms like that vet said. And I'm not sure why your vet would prescribe Metronidazole unless a fecal was done to show trichamonas or other protozoans. It's hard on the kidneys. And to pair it with Baytril? Baytril is also hard on the kidneys. I give my chams extra hydration manually with a syringe if they are on that drug.
Sores on the feet like that are normally associated with reptiles who spend a lot of time in moist bacteria laden substrate. Not something you normally would see on a chameleon. It could be the result of a compromised immune system. The feet are one of the few body parts that come into contact with the flexible branches you seem to use. That stuff is rough to the touch. This would not normally be a problem. Maybe it caused enough abrasive action to cause an infection in a chameleon with a compromised immune system. Or if your humidity is really that high all the time maybe it is a moisture/bacteria issue. I'm sure this is why the Baytril was prescribed. It would have been better to figure the source of the sores out first.
I do think you have a problem of prolonged dehydration which is an underlying issue. Your temperatures are much too high. I use that same Mercury Vapor lamp on a huge floor to ceiling cage for my iguanas. It's way to hot for your chams. Your 95 basking and 75 bottom cage daytime temperatures were baking them. I've seen puffy eyes on dehydrated chameleons. They later sink in when things get really bad. The puffyness may make it hard to focus when trying to shoot at food.
I'm glad you got a new vet. I'd cut the temperatures, get humidity so that it is high after misting and dries out in between and is not high at night. I would add additional hydration by syringe once a day if you can become comfortable in doing it. I'm not sure how far the eggs are developed but you have to get that females calcium issue solved so she can lay them.
Can we get pictures of your total cage set-ups for both of them? I'm hoping we can figure out how she got the sores on her feet. One picture shows fluid weeping from a sore. What is the screening made from? Does it have anything that could cut or snag her skin on it?
Dave Weldon
Avid Member
Howdy Jen,
I'd describe what has been suggested is like pushing the chameleon husbandry "reset button" and so far is sounds like a good idea. Getting back to basics with basking/ambient temps, hydration, humidity, UVB, feeders, supplements etc. should help eliminate possible problem areas.
As Kinyonga mentioned, Metacam is prescribed for pain. Vets sometimes prescribe it while trying to track down if a leg movement problem is do to joint pain or if it is something else. If after a week or so of Metacam, no change results from the potential of pain reduction then the vet may try other therapy that isn't chasing joint pain.
The infection diagnosis will hopefully clear-up with the antibiotic treatment. The tricky part is that if the kidneys and liver are already compromised (other than a kidney and/or liver infection
) the antibiotic is going to stress those organs even more. "The operation was a success but the patient died". As was mentioned, increase hydration and if the kidneys are working well enough then that might be enough to get through the antibiotic regiment without compounding the situation. I would suggest that if you don't trust your tap water, use cheap "bottled" water instead of distilled water. I've read that some studies show that chameleons may receive more calcium from mineralized (hard) water than they receive from dusting feeders with calcium (http://www.martinsreptiles.co.uk/ukchams/calciummbdd3.htm).
EDIT: I forgot to mention that you might try "New Skin" on the foot sores. Sealing them from continued exposure to a moist climbing structure will probably help them to heal. These types of sores can also be caused by vines that are too small in diameter along with being wet too long.
I'd describe what has been suggested is like pushing the chameleon husbandry "reset button" and so far is sounds like a good idea. Getting back to basics with basking/ambient temps, hydration, humidity, UVB, feeders, supplements etc. should help eliminate possible problem areas.
As Kinyonga mentioned, Metacam is prescribed for pain. Vets sometimes prescribe it while trying to track down if a leg movement problem is do to joint pain or if it is something else. If after a week or so of Metacam, no change results from the potential of pain reduction then the vet may try other therapy that isn't chasing joint pain.
The infection diagnosis will hopefully clear-up with the antibiotic treatment. The tricky part is that if the kidneys and liver are already compromised (other than a kidney and/or liver infection
) the antibiotic is going to stress those organs even more. "The operation was a success but the patient died". As was mentioned, increase hydration and if the kidneys are working well enough then that might be enough to get through the antibiotic regiment without compounding the situation. I would suggest that if you don't trust your tap water, use cheap "bottled" water instead of distilled water. I've read that some studies show that chameleons may receive more calcium from mineralized (hard) water than they receive from dusting feeders with calcium (http://www.martinsreptiles.co.uk/ukchams/calciummbdd3.htm).EDIT: I forgot to mention that you might try "New Skin" on the foot sores. Sealing them from continued exposure to a moist climbing structure will probably help them to heal. These types of sores can also be caused by vines that are too small in diameter along with being wet too long.
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Psychotic4mb3r
New Member
Awww! Poor babies .. Im sorry to hear about this.. I really hope everything turns out alright and they both get better soon!!
.. Im sorry to hear about this.. I really hope everything turns out alright and they both get better soon!!
You said..."the main problem with my female is that she is falling almost constantly and I dont want her to fall and hurt herself any worse. and in my male the main problem is that he wont fire his tongue. both are eating and drinking. otherwise they are acting fine"....the quickest way to correct a calcium issue is for the vet to give the chameleon injections of calcium until the blood calcium levels are high enough to give it a shot of calcitonin to draw the calcium back into the bones rapidly. Good husbandry should then keep it there.
Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are all important players in bone health and need to be in balance. You need to look at what you supplement with, what you feed the insects and what you feed to the chameleon. D3 and prEformed vitamin A can build up in the system and they are somewhat antagonistic towards each other so you need to be careful with them. I prefer that my chameleons produce most of their D3 from exposure to the UVB light they receive and only supplement twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder.
I use a phos.-free calcium powder at most feedings to help make up for the poor ratio of calcium to phos. in many of the feeder insects.
I use a vitamin powder with a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A twice a month. Since beta carotene can't build up in the system this leaves me in control of how much (if any) prEformed vitamin A needs to be used.
Gutloading the insects is also important. Crickets are easy to gutload so you can get nutrients into the chameleons. I gutload them with greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet red pepper, sweet potato, zucchini, etc.).
Appropriate temperatures are also important for digestion and thus play a part indirectly in nutrient absorption.
You said..."I went back for xrays 2 weeks after those were taken and the 2nd set od xrays turned out a lot better so I will post them tomorrow"...looking forward to seeing them.
You said..."I bred her once in 2008 in which she later lad one clutch that fall, but have not bred her since"...I would have expected her to lay at least one more clutch after that and possibly continue to lay clutches unless her diet was changed.
Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are all important players in bone health and need to be in balance. You need to look at what you supplement with, what you feed the insects and what you feed to the chameleon. D3 and prEformed vitamin A can build up in the system and they are somewhat antagonistic towards each other so you need to be careful with them. I prefer that my chameleons produce most of their D3 from exposure to the UVB light they receive and only supplement twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder.
I use a phos.-free calcium powder at most feedings to help make up for the poor ratio of calcium to phos. in many of the feeder insects.
I use a vitamin powder with a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A twice a month. Since beta carotene can't build up in the system this leaves me in control of how much (if any) prEformed vitamin A needs to be used.
Gutloading the insects is also important. Crickets are easy to gutload so you can get nutrients into the chameleons. I gutload them with greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet red pepper, sweet potato, zucchini, etc.).
Appropriate temperatures are also important for digestion and thus play a part indirectly in nutrient absorption.
You said..."I went back for xrays 2 weeks after those were taken and the 2nd set od xrays turned out a lot better so I will post them tomorrow"...looking forward to seeing them.
You said..."I bred her once in 2008 in which she later lad one clutch that fall, but have not bred her since"...I would have expected her to lay at least one more clutch after that and possibly continue to lay clutches unless her diet was changed.
sallyb
Avid Member
I am sorry your poor little chams are so ill, i know how awful it is just wanting to make them better and not knowing what to do. It certainly sounds like you could benefit from a new vet with a different prospective. We swapped vets for Gizzy`s op as the first vet did no xrays or blood and we felt she cared more about the money. The vet we chose has given her the most amazing care and even explained everything in detail to us. I really hope it works out for you.
PardalisGirl
Avid Member
Foot sores......
I actually laid in bed thinking about the foot sores on your chameleon. They are pretty unusual. Then I remembered your pictures. Is that chicken wire that I see in the pictures? I'm willing to bet that product you are using has some shart edges to it. I think your cham may be shredding her feet if she tried to climb on it. If you took some pantyhose or fine fabric like silk or satin and rubbed it across the wire you could find out if there were sharp/rough edges on the screen pretty quickly. Just a thought!
I actually laid in bed thinking about the foot sores on your chameleon. They are pretty unusual. Then I remembered your pictures. Is that chicken wire that I see in the pictures? I'm willing to bet that product you are using has some shart edges to it. I think your cham may be shredding her feet if she tried to climb on it. If you took some pantyhose or fine fabric like silk or satin and rubbed it across the wire you could find out if there were sharp/rough edges on the screen pretty quickly. Just a thought!
Texas Panther Man
New Member
hydrate, hydrate, hydrate, & hydrate some more! That male looks like he hasn't drank in a month. I'd immediately put him on a plant in the shower for 20-30 mins. Do that every day 2 time a day if possible. I would also try to give both of them pedialyte by mouth syringe. that should help with hydration and give them some beneficial vits. Did the first vet say anything about the female being gravid? Also you need a bucket with a sand soil mixture in it. I used a kitchen sized trash can. The females like to dig and eight inches in a container aint deep enough most of the time. I hate to say it but it looks like shes egg bound. I Good luck
VeiledGirl
New Member
More pictures of her x-rays
These are her x-rays from 12/5/2009
These are her x-rays from 2 weeks later 12/22/2009
I have a pair of veiled chameleons that have not been acting right so I took them to the vet in December. My female chameleon has been looking dehydrated for a week or so, has been falling off of her branches, and has bumps along her spine so the vet ran blood-work. She then put her on calcium carbonate .17 ml twice a day, .04 ml of baytril orally once a day, .07 ml of metronidazole once a day, .02 ml of metacam once a day, and .05ml of sunshine factor twice a day. Now my male has "slow tongue" (he cant fire his tongue out to grab crickets. he has to walk up to them and he can only stick his tongue out so far) and puffy eyes. So the vet ran blood-work on him as well. She then put him on .21ml of calcium carbonate, .05ml of baytril orally once a day, .03ml of metacam, .05ml of sunshine factor twice a day, and panacur .1ml orally once a day for 5 days then repeat in one week and again in 1 more week (she thinks the puffy eyes could of been from a parasite so she dewormed him). So I had been doing all the meds above for about 2 weeks and nothing really seemed to be helping all that much, except for the fact that my male's puffy eyes seemed to have gone down. But my female's feet seemed to have developed sores on them and her right rear leg/foot seemed to have some edema. So I decided to take them to a specialist exotic vet and he wanted to run more reptile specific blood-work. Well I just got the results yesterday and it came back that they both seem to have kidney and liver failure, and my female has a severe infection I'm just devastated!
Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Male & female: Veiled, 2.5 year old, I have had them both for 2 years.
Handling - I only handled them about once a week before they got sick but now its daily giving them meds
Feeding - I feed them mostly crickets, flies, superworms. I feed about 10-15 crickets a day. I keep my crickets in the basement and I feed them flukers calcium diet as well as carrots, lettuce, potatoes
Supplements - I dust them once a week with the Trex chameleon blend dust
Watering - I have automatic misters that run for 2 min twice a day as well as drippers in both cages. rarely do i seem them drinking, but i have been misting more often lately and I do seem them drink now
Fecal Description - their fecals look normal and both have been tested for parasites and they both had negative results
History - they both have been healthy up until December 2009
Cage Info:
Cage Type - I have 2 screen cages both are 2'L X 2'W X 4'H and I have a piece of plexi glass between them that is painted black so they cant see eachother.
Lighting - I was using the powersun 160 watt but the vet recommended I use the reptisun 5.0 18" and I'm currently using that. My lights so on at 6:30 am and off at 7 pm
Temperature - On my basking side of the cage it gets to about 95 and the bottom of the cage is high 70s. overnight temp is 73. i have digital thermometers and hydrometers.
Humidity - my humidity is at 60% i have a humidifier that runs 24 hours a day in my room with them
Plants - right now i have about 3 pothos plants in both cages that are growing up the sides of the cages.
Placement - the cage is in my bedroom away from the window and air vents. the cage is about 3 feet off the floor.
Location - I am in Plymouth, Michigan
My female's x-rays from 12/5/09 I will post her follow up x-rays tomorrow you can get a much better view
These are her x-rays from 12/5/2009
These are her x-rays from 2 weeks later 12/22/2009
JaxyGirl
Avid Member
Hi..I feel so bad for you and your babies!!! I hope they get better soon. I noticed that you've been giving them distilled water. Distilled water is void of any trace elements, minerals or anything. It's dead steril water. I would switch to regular spring water which you can still purchase by the gallon. Mix this with pedialyte which is used for children that are dehydrated from vomiting or diarrhea. Get the clear unflavored liquid which can be found in any drug store, walmart, food store in the baby medicine isle. Mix half pedialyte and have water and get some in your babies even if you have to use a or dropper to do it. But get them hydrated so that if they do have kidney problems it will help to flush them out. http://pedialyte.com/Default.aspx?u...ontent=pedialyte&WT.mc_id=pedialyte&WT.srch=1
Best of luck...I'm sure they'll be better soon
Best of luck...I'm sure they'll be better soon
VeiledGirl
New Member
Hi..I feel so bad for you and your babies!!! I hope they get better soon. I noticed that you've been giving them distilled water. Distilled water is void of any trace elements, minerals or anything. It's dead steril water. I would switch to regular spring water which you can still purchase by the gallon. Mix this with pedialyte which is used for children that are dehydrated from vomiting or diarrhea. Get the clear unflavored liquid which can be found in any drug store, walmart, food store in the baby medicine isle. Mix half pedialyte and have water and get some in your babies even if you have to use a or dropper to do it. But get them hydrated so that if they do have kidney problems it will help to flush them out. http://pedialyte.com/Default.aspx?u...ontent=pedialyte&WT.mc_id=pedialyte&WT.srch=1
Best of luck...I'm sure they'll be better soon
Thank you and everyone for all the replies. I've pretty much redone their entire cages from lights to substrates. I now soak them twice a day and run my misters for 2 mins 3 times a day and they seem to be doing better, but my female still falls about 3 times a day. So i put her in a smaller cage with a soft bottom and low branches. And im going to go and buy some pedialyte today to help them really get going!
They go back next week to recheck their bloodwork, so im really hoping i get better results
PardalisGirl
Avid Member
Suggestion.........
Another thing you could do is put her in a clear plastic tub with the vines and small plants etc. with a screen, lighting and heating over it. This would keep her close to the UVB and low enough to the ground that she won't hurt herself if she falls. Bone fractures are a real possibility in her condition.
Also, earlier I had asked about the screen on your cages. It looks like chicken wire. I suggested you run a material like pantyhose, silk or satin across it and see if it snags. I think that screen may be the cause of her sores.
Keep us updated on her progress!
Another thing you could do is put her in a clear plastic tub with the vines and small plants etc. with a screen, lighting and heating over it. This would keep her close to the UVB and low enough to the ground that she won't hurt herself if she falls. Bone fractures are a real possibility in her condition.
Also, earlier I had asked about the screen on your cages. It looks like chicken wire. I suggested you run a material like pantyhose, silk or satin across it and see if it snags. I think that screen may be the cause of her sores.
Keep us updated on her progress!
Ok. Several things... and for what its worth I am a veterinary student specializing in reptiles.
1) Your female is gravid. At the time of xrays she had preoviductal eggs which means that she had ovum that are still attached to the ovary but are not yet in the oviduct where they will be shelled. It is good that you caught this now because you have gotten her on better calcium supplimentation before the demand for calcium hits hard (when the eggs are shelled).
2)You mentioned that you had a pan for her to lay eggs in. I am not sure what this means but I am pretty sure it is not adequate. A female cham needs a deep substrate to dig a tunnel and lay her eggs in a safe dark place. At the very least you should fill a 5 gallon bucket with a moist substrate for her to lay. Bigger would be even better.
2) Kidney failure is the single most comon cause of death in pet chams (no its not MBD / NSHP). It is most likely due to chronic dehydration, but poor nutritional status may also play a role. I asume that in michigan you have your heat on for much of the year. This is very drying and the 4 minutes of misting was not enough to get them hydrated. It seems like you have corrected this. The kidney failure was not caused by the overzealous drug treatment from the first vet. (Always a good idea to find a specialist for herps though) Kidney failure also comonly causes swellings and edema in different parts of the body. This looks like it may be one factor contributing to the foot problems. The chicken wire doesn't help either.
3) If your female is actually septic (bacteria floating in the blood stream) this is the most pressing issue. For those that are concerned about the antibiotics effect on the kidneys, I can assure you that the larger problem is the infection which must be gotten under control at all costs. If no one has said this to you yet I should warn you that your females chances of surviving a bacterial sepsis, kidney failure, and egg laying are very slim. Sorry.
There are other conditions that are also caused by improper nutrition like pseudogout and vitamin A deficiency which may also be playing a role in your problems (males puffy eyes).
It seems as though you are on the right track now. Your temperaturs and cage size seem great. You may want to cover or replace the chicken wire with something less harsh on their feet.
Even if your chams don't survive this ordeal it is refreshing to see someone who is willing to admit mistakes, and spend the time and money needed to try and correct them. I am sure your next cham will be appreciative of your newfound knowlege.
Good luck and let us know what happens.
1) Your female is gravid. At the time of xrays she had preoviductal eggs which means that she had ovum that are still attached to the ovary but are not yet in the oviduct where they will be shelled. It is good that you caught this now because you have gotten her on better calcium supplimentation before the demand for calcium hits hard (when the eggs are shelled).
2)You mentioned that you had a pan for her to lay eggs in. I am not sure what this means but I am pretty sure it is not adequate. A female cham needs a deep substrate to dig a tunnel and lay her eggs in a safe dark place. At the very least you should fill a 5 gallon bucket with a moist substrate for her to lay. Bigger would be even better.
2) Kidney failure is the single most comon cause of death in pet chams (no its not MBD / NSHP). It is most likely due to chronic dehydration, but poor nutritional status may also play a role. I asume that in michigan you have your heat on for much of the year. This is very drying and the 4 minutes of misting was not enough to get them hydrated. It seems like you have corrected this. The kidney failure was not caused by the overzealous drug treatment from the first vet. (Always a good idea to find a specialist for herps though) Kidney failure also comonly causes swellings and edema in different parts of the body. This looks like it may be one factor contributing to the foot problems. The chicken wire doesn't help either.
3) If your female is actually septic (bacteria floating in the blood stream) this is the most pressing issue. For those that are concerned about the antibiotics effect on the kidneys, I can assure you that the larger problem is the infection which must be gotten under control at all costs. If no one has said this to you yet I should warn you that your females chances of surviving a bacterial sepsis, kidney failure, and egg laying are very slim. Sorry.
There are other conditions that are also caused by improper nutrition like pseudogout and vitamin A deficiency which may also be playing a role in your problems (males puffy eyes).
It seems as though you are on the right track now. Your temperaturs and cage size seem great. You may want to cover or replace the chicken wire with something less harsh on their feet.
Even if your chams don't survive this ordeal it is refreshing to see someone who is willing to admit mistakes, and spend the time and money needed to try and correct them. I am sure your next cham will be appreciative of your newfound knowlege.
Good luck and let us know what happens.
Julirs
New Member
I am not sure you can say this with 100% certainty. Other than that nice to see someone specializing in reptiles.
zwhitman said..."Your female is gravid. At the time of xrays she had preoviductal eggs"...this is what I was trying to determine from the x-rays....glad you could see it!
You said..."You mentioned that you had a pan for her to lay eggs in. I am not sure what this means but I am pretty sure it is not adequate"...I have recommended an opaque container that when empty is big enough for the female to fit into with a few inches of space on all sides of her and about 10" deep be put in the cage to give the female a place to dig to show that she is needing to lay eggs. This size gives her enough space to start to dig without taking up the hole cage. The female can be moved to a large container once she starts to dig in the small container in the cage. (I've been keeping/hatching chameleons for over 20 years and this has always worked.)
Good to have someone on this forum who is specializing in reptiles in their studies! (I'm not a vet but have been involved in studies done by vets related to chameleons over the 20+ years that I have kept chameleons.)
You said..."You mentioned that you had a pan for her to lay eggs in. I am not sure what this means but I am pretty sure it is not adequate"...I have recommended an opaque container that when empty is big enough for the female to fit into with a few inches of space on all sides of her and about 10" deep be put in the cage to give the female a place to dig to show that she is needing to lay eggs. This size gives her enough space to start to dig without taking up the hole cage. The female can be moved to a large container once she starts to dig in the small container in the cage. (I've been keeping/hatching chameleons for over 20 years and this has always worked.)
Good to have someone on this forum who is specializing in reptiles in their studies! (I'm not a vet but have been involved in studies done by vets related to chameleons over the 20+ years that I have kept chameleons.)
Kidney damage in chameleons is an EXTREMELY common problem. Even top notch keepers/breeders find some level of kidney disease on necropsy of animals that have lived to their full life expectancy. The drugs that your cham was on, for the time he was on them, would not have caused significant kidney damage in an otherwise healthy animal. If kidney disease is already present, then its a whole different story.
How is your female doing? The falling was the most concerning symptom to me and the only one that has not been nailed down.
PardalisGirl
Avid Member
This cham was on Baytril for two weeks. That is a significant time period for a cham. There is a reason that vetrinarians like my own excellent reptile vet stress the importance of extra hydration during any treatment of Baytril. It is harsh on the kidneys. If proper hydration measures are not used during treatment it can impair the kidneys. Combine that with other things going through this chameleon's kidneys at the same time and you have a high potential for kidney issues.
The over usage of suppliments is a common problem among chameleon keepers. We find people who come to this forum for the first time often put too much of any given suppliment on the feeder and suppliment too frequently. They don't slow down on supplimentation as the chameleon ages. Adult chameleons need less supplimentations since they are done growing. This oversupplimentation is probably the main cause of renal deterioration in chameleons in general. That and improper hydration.
As for the falling....I've noted that symptom with many of the MBD cases we see on this forum. Eliminating the falls as much as possible is very important since the bones are weakened and fracture easily.
How are your chams doing? I hope they are making some improvement. We would all like an update!
I have seen very long courses of baytril in hundreds of herps including chams and I have read their product saftey information and I really don't think that baytril is the culprit here. Maybe the straw that broke the camels back, but not the true problem.
I do recomend that the animal be soaked or showered every day while on treatment. If it is too debilitated for this than I would suggest hospitalizing it for intracoelomic fluids.
I do recomend that the animal be soaked or showered every day while on treatment. If it is too debilitated for this than I would suggest hospitalizing it for intracoelomic fluids.
PardalisGirl
Avid Member
Hmmmmmmmm....
Hmmmmm....that's what was said before only repackaged to make it appear new. I'd still like an update of how these chameleons are doing. I'm really much more interested in hearing how these chams are doing today than hearing my own information being translated into "vet speak".
Hmmmmm....that's what was said before only repackaged to make it appear new. I'd still like an update of how these chameleons are doing. I'm really much more interested in hearing how these chams are doing today than hearing my own information being translated into "vet speak".
VeiledGirl
New Member
Update on Chams
Well turns out my male died a week ago today I did a necropsy on him and it turns out he had kidney stones and one of the stones ended up getting dislodged and stuck and blocked him up and he passed. It was very quick all happened with in 30 minutes. I just got done cleaning out his cage went to eat a bowl of cereal and when I went back into my room he was laying on the bottom of the cage. The vet assured me it was nothing I did or could of done, the only way we would of known he had them was if we would of done xrays (which he was a healthy cham and there was no need for xrays)
As for my female... I ended up Laying her cage on its side so its only 2 feet high and 4 feet wide now because she does still fall, and its much less for her to fall now. I have an egg laying bin in there and I put her in there everyday when I go to work hoping she will lay, as she is very fat now! She still seems dehydrated but she is drinking. I take her back to the vet this week to recheck her blookwork.
Thanks again for everyone's help and concern. I really really appreciate it!
Well turns out my male died a week ago today
I did a necropsy on him and it turns out he had kidney stones and one of the stones ended up getting dislodged and stuck and blocked him up and he passed. It was very quick all happened with in 30 minutes. I just got done cleaning out his cage went to eat a bowl of cereal and when I went back into my room he was laying on the bottom of the cage. The vet assured me it was nothing I did or could of done, the only way we would of known he had them was if we would of done xrays (which he was a healthy cham and there was no need for xrays)As for my female... I ended up Laying her cage on its side so its only 2 feet high and 4 feet wide now because she does still fall, and its much less for her to fall now. I have an egg laying bin in there and I put her in there everyday when I go to work hoping she will lay, as she is very fat now! She still seems dehydrated but she is drinking. I take her back to the vet this week to recheck her blookwork.
Thanks again for everyone's help and concern. I really really appreciate it!
