kidney failure

[dodolah]

that is the plan, none are open this weekend though as it is easter......its so hard to try and make the right choice. i think though, we are going to stop the albon, this week, and let him have a bit of time to get the meds out of his system. then if there is no improvement, take him to a new vet.....

Please keep us updated.
I hope your chameleon will improve soon.
Consider the alternative medicine available rather than using Albon...

 

[albacheck]

5 crickets a week???? im sorry, but i have had chams before, and i have never fed them only 5 crickets a week..........thats keeping them a little more than just "hungry" in my opinion.......the last veiled i had lived to be 6, and he ate at least 5 crix a day.........

We have to stop humanizing these animals, reptiles have a completly different metabolism then we have.

You need to consider that the density of food in their natural habitats fluctates seasonaly, meaning that their are times, where they can stuff themselves and times where they will hardly find anything to nibble on.
Thus in their natural habitats those individuals, who eat as much as possible during the season rich of food, will have better chances surviving the season with little food, because they can live of their fat depot -> thus have a higher fitness(can bear more offspring).
No we take the chameleon from it's habitat and stick it into an enclosure.
The genes of the chameleon still "say" <<eat as much as possible>>.
And if offered food, it will eat and eat and eat and eat... (since this has worked in the wild)
If offered larvae often (that contain a lot of fat, that they need in order to go through their metamorphosis) which chameleons will most seldomly find in nature, but turn out to be good way of getting some extra calories, they start to get picky.
In order to find prey chameleons often have to activly go hunting, in captivity they can comfortably shoot their prey out of a bowl, hardly having to move an inch, thus saving energy.

Consequences of a diet to rich in protein and fat?
The concentration of uric acid (emerges during the processing of proteins)
in the blood rises and if the saturation point in the kidney is reached, the uric acid crystals are stored in the joints or the guts -> the limbs appear swollen and it hurts, so the animal appears to be lying on the branch.

Reptiles are survivalists, it is very difficult to feed chameleons too little, the animals will just lower their metabolism and move less.

An example from a keeper I know, who took over over a male panther chameleon length head2tail 43cm weight 210g, that iho was formed like a football. He let him starve for 4 weeks (only gave him 5 crickets and a few fruitflies). In the first days he could observe the chameleon activly searching for food after a week or so, he just sat there and waited. The result was, that he hab only lost about 5grams ^^

 

[albacheck]

This is quite fascinating.
I want to continue this discussion. But, shall we do this further in a new thread, so we do not hijack JackAttack's original post?

Sure, that will probably be the best idea

 

[JackAttack]

We have to stop humanizing these animals, reptiles have a completly different metabolism then we have.

You need to consider that the density of food in their natural habitats fluctates seasonaly, meaning that their are times, where they can stuff themselves and times where they will hardly find anything to nibble on.
Thus in their natural habitats those individuals, who eat as much as possible during the season rich of food, will have better chances surviving the season with little food, because they can live of their fat depot -> thus have a higher fitness(can bear more offspring).
No we take the chameleon from it's habitat and stick it into an enclosure.
The genes of the chameleon still "say" <<eat as much as possible>>.
And if offered food, it will eat and eat and eat and eat... (since this has worked in the wild)
If offered larvae often (that contain a lot of fat, that they need in order to go through their metamorphosis) which chameleons will most seldomly find in nature, but turn out to be good way of getting some extra calories, they start to get picky.
In order to find prey chameleons often have to activly go hunting, in captivity they can comfortably shoot their prey out of a bowl, hardly having to move an inch, thus saving energy.

Consequences of a diet to rich in protein and fat?
The concentration of uric acid (emerges during the processing of proteins)
in the blood rises and if the saturation point in the kidney is reached, the uric acid crystals are stored in the joints or the guts -> the limbs appear swollen and it hurts, so the animal appears to be lying on the branch.

Reptiles are survivalists, it is very difficult to feed chameleons too little, the animals will just lower their metabolism and move less.

An example from a keeper I know, who took over over a male panther chameleon length head2tail 43cm weight 210g, that iho was formed like a football. He let him starve for 4 weeks (only gave him 5 crickets and a few fruitflies). In the first days he could observe the chameleon activly searching for food after a week or so, he just sat there and waited. The result was, that he hab only lost about 5grams ^^

this , actually makes sense to me. i was skeptical at first, but now, after jack being off albon for 3 days, he seems to be making way more of an effort to move around. he is falling more as a result, but its not stopping him. i am taking this as a sign of improvement. we are going to keep giving him iv fluids, just to ensure he is hydrated, if this is a kidney problem. eating will be GREATLY reduced.........i will offer crickets again in about 5 days, and see if he has improved. if this is a build up of uric acid.........is there a way to get rid of it??? if i stop/slow down his eating, should that cure it up?..............

 

[kinyonga]

Here is some information...but generally I think its hard to treat...
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=17+1796&aid=3317
"If uric acid levels are significantly elevated, allopurinol may be given to reduce production of uric acid by the liver."

http://www.chameleoncompany.com/Medical.html#anchor_49

 

[GooglezNvincent]

this , actually makes sense to me. i was skeptical at first, but now, after jack being off albon for 3 days, he seems to be making way more of an effort to move around. he is falling more as a result, but its not stopping him. i am taking this as a sign of improvement. we are going to keep giving him iv fluids, just to ensure he is hydrated, if this is a kidney problem. eating will be GREATLY reduced.........i will offer crickets again in about 5 days, and see if he has improved. if this is a build up of uric acid.........is there a way to get rid of it??? if i stop/slow down his eating, should that cure it up?..............

YAY! keep getting better Jack, and good call on stopping the medication. I knew things would get better!

 

[Eric Adrignola]

from what you describe, I do not think he's way way overfed. He might be - hornworms and such are really caloric! However, I do believe that his condition will improve if he's just left the heck alone.

I feel 5 insects a week is a bit low, for a large male, unless he's eating a lot of plant matter as well. They will probably maintain weight on that easily - I'm sure of it.

I find they usually have a lot more energy if fed a bit more than that. During the mating times, I feed them more, and they still maintain weight. If I fed them that much all year, they'd get fat.

Chitinous insects make up more of their diet in the wild than they do in captivity - especially in the US where locusts/grasshoppers are not available commercially. Everything NOT a cricket or roach is a larval insect - loaded with fat and light on chitin. Still, most roaches and crickets have more fat and meat than most wild prey insects woudl have. Flying and arboreal insects are usually less meaty and fatty than ground dwelling insects.

I try to get mealworms to pupate, so I have a crunchy beetle to feed my animals. They really enjoy them.

This summer, I might try to catch masses of grasshopers in the field and freee them...

 

[JackAttack]

i am not going to force feed him for a while at least.......the only thing he has eaten on his own so far is horned worms, but i am going to stop those as well. if he doesnt eat in more than a week or so, i'll start feeding crickets again. i just want to see what happens.......

jack started to shed today. he is shedding on his knees and his chin......he had an injection yesterday of fluid, to keep him hydrated. he has not pooped in 3 full days, 4 if he doesnt go today. the last thing he ate was on saturday, one large horned worm.......should be pooping it out anytime now........

 

[JackAttack]

https://www.chameleonforums.com/help-chameleon-has-fallen-22259/index14.html

on page 14 there are new pics of jack.....and his current status ...........his eyes are super bulgy sometimes now...............i have both these threads going now, didnt intend for both to get so many responses, thank you all so much............

 

[Harlynorf]

My little Red Bar Ambilobe has just been diagnosed with this, he has not eaten, his poop wasn't black just white and very unhealthy looking, the first thing we noticed is that he wasn't walking as much as normal, and when we walked up to him in the distance he jumped and hid, but we've had him since he was born and he's never been scared of anything in his life, but then when we get close to him he's okay again.
He gluggs water loads, and we took him to the vets because he had thrown up twice, possibly more.

He was diagnosed with it last night, she said he may not have long left at all, we have to give him 4 little syringes of antibiotics and supplements a day and bath him as many times as possible in this powder mixed with warm water..

:'( Most upsetting thing I have witnessed in a long time. There is nothing we can do but keep doing these things for him and hope he lives a little longer.

I wish you the best with your Cham, this is such a horrible thing to happen to them but apparently it's genetic, and very common in these colour morphs.

L

 

[Harlynorf]

Oh just noticed this was 7 years ago, damn.. Yes their eyes get bulgy as they have a lot of excess liquid in their bodies, so they use it to clean their eyes, I assume they are tired more from their little immune systems trying to fight off the kidney failure, so they get tired eyes a lot and to try and stay awake they clean them/moisten them.

If anyone else reads this with the same problem, it's good to get them some antibiotics just in case they have any other form of infection as they can't fight both of them at the same time, any other infection will weaken them too much for them to be able to keep fighting against the kidney failure.

My poor little Quentin is fighting his little heart out but it's rapidly taking over him.