Leone is lethargic

[corynnonthecob]

my chameleon has been acting lethargic and not eating much, sleeping in his cage during the day. it might be because my ambient house temp is 80-86 degrees, or maybe he's impacted from the superworms. he is sleeping during the day. im not sure if it's because the days are longer that the daylight is making him wake up and go to sleep at the wrong times, im not sure. any insight?

here is my info so far,
Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Panther Chameleon, named Leone, he is a nosy faly, almost 2 years old
• Handling - Never except for cleaning and inspecting him for problems. Recently i have had to remove sperm plugs that were stuck, i did so carefully and slowly, and applied triple antibiotic with a q-tip.
• Feeding - I’m feeding him superworms. I cant keep crickets from dying, my local shop does not supply the best crickets. I have been freaked out ever since I saw a worm crawl off of one. 5-6 worms every two days. I have them on a complete cricket diet of orange cubes by fluker’s, but not much else.
• Supplements - I use fluker’s without vitamin d and Reptivite every other feeding
• Watering - I use a pressurized sprayer to drench the screen top with droplets. I have seen him drinking it maybe once every day or two, and I spray it multiple times a day.
• Fecal Description - he poops every few days, but i normally don't see them fresh since im at work, and they are about raw umber paint color when wet, and once they dry they’re like the color of dark chocolate. I have been meaning to get him a fecal, but have not been able to get a fresh sample and take it to the vet.
• History - he has had some stuck sperm plugs, but they have never caused much complication. He has also had a tongue injury since he was a baby, it doesn't shoot as if it’s caught by a string half way. He gets discouraged by that, he normally just gets really close to the bugs. He’s cooperative with handling unless I have to turn him upside down, and his grips have been weak for the last while, but has shown no other symptoms.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - screen cage with live plants and natural sticks. Made of wood and basic pvc screen, 5 foot tall, 4 foot long, 2 feet wide.
• Lighting - oh man, no clue for half of the bulbs the brand, but i have a linear uvb bulb, i think thrive brand bulb and fixture. I have some flukers fixtures and a ceramic heat emitter that is thrive brand. And my UVA are Sansi lights, i have two of both sansi lights and the ceramic heat emitters for both basking spots since it’s a long cage.
• Temperature - My temp range is about 80 degrees at the top and 77 at the bottom. It’s hard to get a strong heat source that’s not red. The basking branch is 5 inches below, and one very close below that’s 7-8 inches. It has been super hot from the heat wave, my room has been 80-86 degrees the past few weeks, going down to 77 at night.
• Humidity - my humidity is 20-50, my steam from my showers helps humidify and it’s humid in texas.
• Plants - I'm using live plants but there’s a wall on 2 sides and a blanket on a third for privacy and to not stress him out. The front and top are uncovered. I have two dracena dracenas and a spider plant. All my other ones have died.
• Placement - my cage is on the floor, in the corner of the room. I'm keeping the fans on because my ac is struggling. It’s been an extra heat recently, my ambient room temp was 82-86 degrees, no clue what it is at basking. I have it covered on three sides so the traffic does not stress him out too much. The night temps are 77-78 degrees.
• Location - I'm in central Texas, in the heat wave currently.

 

[Beppo]

Hi there! Welcome! I see some things right off that need improvement! I’m going to tag some members that are more experienced and will be able to help you! Sit tight and you are in good hands!

@elizaann2 @Beman @MissSkittles @kinyonga

 

[MissSkittles]

Hi and welcome. Give me a little bit and I’ll go thru your husbandry.

 

[elizaann2]

While @MissSkittles is going through your husbandry I wanted to offer some information on bugs. I often do not keep crickets either, I only have them right now because my Juvenile Jackson's really only eats those at the moment. Some great alternatives are BSFL (my favorite, easy to keep, cheap to buy and if you don't feed them off quickly enough they hatch into a fly which is a really fun/enriching food for your chameleon to eat), I also feed dubia roaches. Depending on where you live, those may be some good alternatives. Lastly, my other common healthy feeder are silk worms, which also can hatch into a moth for an enriching food.

Unfortunately, super worms are high in fat and are considered a 'treat bug' and should only be fed to your chameleon sparingly.

I buy my dubias and BSFL here.

I buy my silkworms here.

For your convenience I have attached a document that could give you other ideas of healthy alternatives for your sweet little chameleon.

 

[MissSkittles]

Since I tend to talk a lot and there seems to be a good amount of info I feel you need, I’m breaking this into two parts.


Your Chameleon - Panther Chameleon, named Leone, he is a nosy faly, almost 2 years old How long have you had him?

• Handling - Never except for cleaning and inspecting him for problems. Recently i have had to remove sperm plugs that were stuck, i did so carefully and slowly, and applied triple antibiotic with a q-tip. Ok. How does his vent look after?
• Feeding - I’m feeding him superworms. I cant keep crickets from dying, my local shop does not supply the best crickets.Superworms are very fatty and should be just for treats. They are also very addictive, so you may have to ‘tough love’ him into eating other feeders now. There are other feeders besides crickets. It’s ideal to have a few staple feeders and rotate them as chams like variety as much as we do. I have been freaked out ever since I saw a worm crawl off of one. Where are you buying crickets from?! 5-6 worms every two days. I have them on a complete cricket diet of orange cubes by fluker’s, but not much else. The orange cubes are good for hydration maybe, but not nutrition. It’s important to keep your feeder insects fed a healthy and nutritious diet so that they will be nutritious for your chameleon. I’m attaching some graphics below to help guide you. I have bearded dragons and feed my insects the same fresh greens and veggies that I feed them. I also use Repashy Bug Burger to round things out.
• Supplements - I use fluker’s without vitamin d and Reptivite every other feeding Good supplements but they are being used incorrectly. Very important - does your Reptivite have vitamin D3? It should say on the front of the label. The correct supplementation is to lightly dust every feeding with the calcium without D3 except when using another supplement. One feeding every other week you’ll use the ReptiVite. If it has D3, that’s all you need. If your ReptiVite does not have D3, you will need to get a calcium with D3 that you will also use for one feeding every other week, but not the same week as the ReptiVite. If you want to keep it very easy, you can instead get either ReptiVite with D3 or Repashy calcium plus LoD and then you won’t need the calcium with D3.
• Watering - I use a pressurized sprayer to drench the screen top with droplets. I have seen him drinking it maybe once every day or two, and I spray it multiple times a day. Ideally you should mist for at least two minutes, 2-3 times a day - right before lights go on and off and mid day if you feel it’s needed. Some will instead use a dripper at mid day for 15-20 minutes and some just have nothing but the 2 mistings.
• Fecal Description - he poops every few days, but i normally don't see them fresh since im at work, and they are about raw umber paint color when wet, and once they dry they’re like the color of dark chocolate. I have been meaning to get him a fecal, but have not been able to get a fresh sample and take it to the vet. Since your crickets were sketchy, getting a fecal is definitely a good idea.
• History - he has had some stuck sperm plugs, but they have never caused much complication. Hopefully with making the husbandry changes I’m advising this will put a stop to stuck sperm plugs. He has also had a tongue injury since he was a baby, it doesn't shoot as if it’s caught by a string half way. He gets discouraged by that, he normally just gets really close to the bugs. He’s cooperative with handling unless I have to turn him upside down, and his grips have been weak for the last while, but has shown no other symptoms.
  If he hasn’t been getting any vitamin D3, that could account for so very many things - the stuck plugs, weak grip, closing eyes, etc. If your ReptiVite does have D3, then he’s been getting too much of that and vitamin A. These are fat soluble vitamins and we need to be very careful in giving them since they can easily build up to toxic levels in the body. Your guy is not feeling good regardless.
  I really would like to see some pics of you chameleons and his enclosure, from floor to lights please. Often pics say so much that we never even think to talk about.
  To be continued….

 

[MissSkittles]

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - screen cage with live plants and natural sticks. Made of wood and basic pvc screen, 5 foot tall, 4 foot long, 2 feet wide. Very nice!
• Lighting - oh man, no clue for half of the bulbs the brand, but i have a linear uvb bulb, i think thrive brand bulb and fixture. I have some flukers fixtures and a ceramic heat emitter that is thrive brand. And my UVA are Sansi lights, i have two of both sansi lights and the ceramic heat emitters for both basking spots since it’s a long cage. Lighting is super important! I’m going to make you do some work. The brand and strength is marked on the ends of the bulbs. Please take a pic and post it. Last I knew, Thrive did not sell adequate uvb for chameleons, so take a pic of your uvb light too. When was the last time the uvb bulb was changed or set up? How many lights do you have? This is where a pic will say so much.
• Temperature - My temp range is about 80 degrees at the top and 77 at the bottom. It’s hard to get a strong heat source that’s not red. What do you mean? Are you having trouble finding basking bulbs? Never use colored lights for chameleons (any reptiles really). If you can find them, plain old fashioned incandescent light bulbs work for basking. There’s also halogen and various reptile basking bulbs. I get most of my bulbs from Amazon. The basking branch is 5 inches below, and one very close below that’s 7-8 inches. No no no…too close. When using the correct uvb, your basking branch should be about 8-9“ below it. Then we have to figure out what strength basking bulb we need based on that distance. I use 60w for my females and used 75w for my males. Your guy can have his temp up to about 85. It has been super hot from the heat wave, my room has been 80-86 degrees the past few weeks, going down to 77 at night. Ugh! If your room is that warm, he probably doesn’t even need a basking light on. At night, you want to give him a good cool down. 77 is a bit warm for night, but I get it with the heat wave. You may want to consider getting a room ac if possible, for the both of you.
• Humidity - my humidity is 20-50, my steam from my showers helps humidify and it’s humid in texas. That’s a bit low for a panther. The ideal day time range is between 50-70%. How are you measuring? Is it a digital or analog hygrometer? Having the humidity too low would be a factor contributing to poor shedding and sperm plugs.
• Plants - I'm using live plants but there’s a wall on 2 sides and a blanket on a third for privacy and to not stress him out. The front and top are uncovered. I have two dracena dracenas and a spider plant. All my other ones have died. Have you tried pothos? It’s the most basic of plants and is perfect for chameleons. Very easy to care for with no special light needed and grows pretty quick.
• Placement - my cage is on the floor,If at all possible, it would be great if you could raise it a bit. Chams feel safest when they are above us. I imagine it would be a challenge to find something the right size and strength to hold his enclosure though. in the corner of the room. I'm keeping the fans on because my ac is struggling. Oh…ok. It’s just too hot for your ac to keep up. It’s been an extra heat recently, my ambient room temp was 82-86 degrees, no clue what it is at basking. I have it covered on three sides so the traffic does not stress him out too much. The night temps are 77-78 degrees.
• Location - I'm in central Texas, in the heat wave currently. I’m in Florida - doesn’t a trip to see the penguins in Antarctica sound like fun?
• 
  
• my chameleon has been acting lethargic and not eating much, sleeping in his cage during the day. sleeping or eyes closed during the day is not good at all. He’s really not feeling good. While it could be any number of things, those related to husbandry would be the incorrect supplements and possibly uvb lighting. Only a veterinary work up could really determine and diagnose and that may be something you want to pursue. We can help if you need to find a good vet. Vet or no vet though, you need to start working asap on making the changes I’ve suggested. None of the things you mention would have any impact on his sleep schedule. might be because my ambient house temp is 80-86 degrees, or maybe he's impacted from the superworms. he is sleeping during the day. im not sure if it's because the days are longer that the daylight is making him wake up and go to sleep at the wrong times, im not sure. any insight?
  So I do need some more info before I can fully complete this. I’ll be waiting for your reply with the pics.

 

[corynnonthecob]

Alright. So I read what you guys wrote and today I got a new light that is a 75w incandescent uncolored bulb. My fixture keeps the lights suspended about 3 inches from the top of the cage, and my light was pretty weak, he hasn't shown many signs of overheating like gaping or bright/light colors.
My reptivite does have D3, so I will cut back on that, effective today. Today I hand fed him some bsfl and he was wandering up high and down low on the cage, acting a bit more like his normal self. I also got some leafy greens and some veggies and froze them for later use, since I'm pretty forgetful at the store.
I have been trying to grow a pothos to transplant in but it is really tricky to water it sometimes so I end up killing it out of procrastination lol. Today I went out and got an ac unit for my room from my storage shed, and it is like sitting in a cooler(compared to my sweaty sheets). I will keep it about 75 degrees.
For the light- I have one linear 18 inch uvb, two basking lights, right next to my two sansi uva lights, on each end of the cage (i will post pictures tomorrow). The other basking stick is about 7 inches from the top of the cage but with the bulb not being too close it's more like 8 or 9 inches. I have not used any colored lights, it's been hard to find one that the filament doesn't come already broken. it has happened I want to say 5 times, separate brands. a big wallet stressor. but today I bought that new bulb so I should be sitting pretty tomorrow morning.
My thermometer hygrometer is digital.
I have had my panther since he was two months old. After the removal of the sperm plugs, his vent looks pretty normal, his male parts retract wonderfully and he goes back to being his goofy self. The first time I panicked because I thought maybe it was a prolapse (thought it didn't even look close)
I bought my crickets from petsmart because theirs don't chirp at night, but omg I'm horrified. I have had a bsfl container a few times, but this Texas heat and the dramatic winters put some serious stress on them and they all die. I also can't seem to make them auto collect so I have to scoop them out of their sludge and wash them, and I doubt that's really a good way to do it :/.
Unfortunately his lights are out for the night, and I have covered the front of his cage for the night for optimal darkness. I will take pictures tomorrow!

Unrelated but quite related at the same time: what is the consensus on humidifiers(for human colds and sickness) for chameleons? Could I mist with a humidifier? The most is super small, so I'm wondering if it would take way too long to collect on plants and him or make a difference. just those walgreens humidifiers that emit only water vapor. I might even be able to hang it in the cage somehow so it stays where it needs to be.

If I'm being honest with myself, I know I'm not providing him the best care. I have been trying to find him a home where he will be appreciated and better taken care of because college and my job keep me busy during the day, but I have had no luck so far. I’ve checked with my local reptile shop and they don't take animals from patrons, only breeders. My next guess is the Houston reptile center, but a two hour drive would be super stressful for him, if they will even take him. Any suggestions?

You guys are such a help, I am forever grateful!

 

[leedragon]

look up what uvb light you have. when did you changed latest? give him resåashy vitamin a in the next feedings and see how it reacts, easy on it you can overdose it-

 

[Beppo]

Hey glad you’re starting to sort things out. I wasn’t sure if anyone had told you about the chameleon academy or Neptune the chameleon, but both have helped me immensely as well as this forum. I think you would find a lot of answers to questions you have there! You can check them out with the links I’ve provided if you haven’t already.

https://chameleonacademy.com/

 

[MissSkittles]

give him resåashy vitamin a in the next feedings and see how it reacts, easy on it you can overdose it-

The ReptiVite has preformed vitamin A, so he’s already been getting too much and it’s built up...same as D3. Little guy needs a break from both and the ReptiVite for about a month.

Could I mist with a humidifier?

Yes - in a way and no. For those who are able to achieve some really cool nights below at least 68-70F, they can run a cool mist humidifier to simulate the natural hydration chams get thru fog in the wild. For those who can’t reach those temp drops at night, we can’t do that without adding risk of respiratory infection. Heat plus increased humidity increases risks of respiratory infection, so never run a humidifier/fogger during the day.

I have been trying to find him a home where he will be appreciated and better taken care

There may be a member here who would be interested in taking him. You could try posting an ad for him. It’s far too hot everywhere right now, but as the weather cools off you may even want to consider shipping him if you can’t find anyone local.

 

[corynnonthecob]

in this last picture at the top i have a uvb linear bulb, and on both sides i have sansi lights with ceramic heat emitters next to them. My bulb for the UVB is only about 2-3 months old, i just replaced it.

 

[ChamelaChameleon]

I'm also from Texas. To address my temp and humidity issues, I screwed plexiglass to the sides of the cage and added a thick plastic table runner to the back which I can raise or lower, based on needs.

Grasshoppers are a good staple feeder. They are easy to care for. They do not require water, live a long time, and my Cham loves them. An order of 50 last me 40-50 days. I clean the grasshopper bin before I replenish, 40-50 days. So very little cleaning!

 

[ChamelaChameleon]

You can contact the Serpentarium (Richardson,Tx), they might be interested in having him.

 

[MissSkittles]

Ok, so he isn’t really getting a great deal of uvb from your uvb light. You have a T8 fixture so would need a 10.0 or Arcadia 12% bulb to provide the correct level of uvb. Also, while your enclosure is 4’ wide, you are using only a 16” uvb light. Your uvb light needs to be as long as your enclosure is wide.
So, in essence he’s not getting adequate uvb for his body to make D3 and he’s getting too much dietary supplement of both vitamins D3 and A. His poor little body doesn’t know if it’s coming or going. Hold off on giving the ReptiVite for a month and you’ll need to get him proper uvb lighting. Until you can correct the lighting, take him outside for some supervised natural sunshine for at least 15 minutes or so daily. If you have somewhere just barely or partially under a scant amount of shade (dappled light), that would be perfect so he can get some sun but not bake. Sit him on a plant and don’t take your eyes off him for even a second. Chams move very quickly when they want.
After seeing your enclosure, I’d definitely want to add many more branches and/or vines. Empty air space is wasted space.

 

[corynnonthecob]

ok so today i started up my bsfl farm! i did the thing and bought the thing and now i have supplies for gutloading and feeding, so im all set for food, and i have some others that i bought for the meantime. He LOVES bsfl, but it's hard for him to catch them with his injury. I have not seen him drink recently but i mist his favorite areas a few times a day, and it is much cooler in my room, getting down to 75-77 in the night and about 80 during the day (we're still working on it). i am nervous about staying outside with my chameleon because i'm allergic to mosquitoes, and if i get a single bite it means pain. Should i get a second linear light? would it not be enough to put it closer to his basking spot? he spends most of his time on one side of the enclosure, i couldn't put it there?

update on his behavior! i havent seen him in his sleeping position more than 2 hours before bedtime, we're working on that. BUT he is vibrant, moving like normal, having a normal eating pattern, and doing his normal search for ladies across the cage. I havent seen a poop or sperm plug yet, but he poops in one of my plants, so it might just be blending in.

Am i forgetting anything? i want to add more plants tomorrow.

i might also start buying grasshoppers online, can i breed them at home? im gonna do some research. i havent dusted anything since i first posted, when should i start giving him only calcium and no reptivite?

 

[MissSkittles]

@Beman Can you help with the uvb please? Op has a 16” T8 with what I can only assume is a 5.0 bulb. Until they can get a correct uvb light, how can they make this work temporarily? Post #14 summarizes the problem. Thanks!

 

[MissSkittles]

i am nervous about staying outside with my chameleon because i'm allergic to mosquitoes, and if i get a single bite it means pain.

Mosquitos shouldn’t be out at mid day in the sun. You can not leave him alone outside. If he doesn’t take off, a hawk or other predator could grab him. It would only be for about 15 minutes or so. Any longer and both of you would bake.

 

[Beman]

Ok, so he isn’t really getting a great deal of uvb from your uvb light. You have a T8 fixture so would need a 10.0 or Arcadia 12% bulb to provide the correct level of uvb. Also, while your enclosure is 4’ wide, you are using only a 16” uvb light. Your uvb light needs to be as long as your enclosure is wide.
So, in essence he’s not getting adequate uvb for his body to make D3 and he’s getting too much dietary supplement of both vitamins D3 and A. His poor little body doesn’t know if it’s coming or going. Hold off on giving the ReptiVite for a month and you’ll need to get him proper uvb lighting. Until you can correct the lighting, take him outside for some supervised natural sunshine for at least 15 minutes or so daily. If you have somewhere just barely or partially under a scant amount of shade (dappled light), that would be perfect so he can get some sun but not bake. Sit him on a plant and don’t take your eyes off him for even a second. Chams move very quickly when they want.
After seeing your enclosure, I’d definitely want to add many more branches and/or vines. Empty air space is wasted space.

They are using the thrive bulbs which I would not be able to give info on. Those ones are done differently and I have not found any credible info on how they compare to reptisun.

I would say they need to go buy the reptisun T8 10.0 bulb for it. Then they need to have a branch below it about 7 inches down from the fixture this should put the cham in the 2-3 UVI range.

Best plan is to get a 4 ft T5HO fixture and 5.0 or 6% bulb. Run this across the cage and have branches below it at 8-9 inches down. This is going to be the best thing for the cham to ensure he is getting the UVB he needs.

 

[ChamelaChameleon]

ok so today i started up my bsfl farm! i did the thing and bought the thing and now i have supplies for gutloading and feeding, so im all set for food, and i have some others that i bought for the meantime. He LOVES bsfl, but it's hard for him to catch them with his injury. I have not seen him drink recently but i mist his favorite areas a few times a day, and it is much cooler in my room, getting down to 75-77 in the night and about 80 during the day (we're still working on it). i am nervous about staying outside with my chameleon because i'm allergic to mosquitoes, and if i get a single bite it means pain. Should i get a second linear light? would it not be enough to put it closer to his basking spot? he spends most of his time on one side of the enclosure, i couldn't put it there?

update on his behavior! i havent seen him in his sleeping position more than 2 hours before bedtime, we're working on that. BUT he is vibrant, moving like normal, having a normal eating pattern, and doing his normal search for ladies across the cage. I havent seen a poop or sperm plug yet, but he poops in one of my plants, so it might just be blending in.

Am i forgetting anything? i want to add more plants tomorrow.

i might also start buying grasshoppers online, can i breed them at home? im gonna do some research. i havent dusted anything since i first posted, when should i start giving him only calcium and no reptivite?

 

[ChamelaChameleon]

I use grasshoppers for my staple feeder. I love them. Im going to attempt to breed my own. I've been researching. Also, I always find baby hoppers in my feeder bin after i have them a few weeks. @jannb Is a great resource if you want to breed grasshoppers.