Justin Carl
Avid Member
Forum rule reminder.
Life expectancy
- Thread starter Chris Anderson
- Start date
dodolah
Retired Moderator
well said!
I too believe in this point.
Both sides are equally strong and whom to say that both cannot coexist?
Perhaps, God's work and the evidence of Him is in the DNA of the creatures He created.
Be respectful of each other beliefs and be in peace.
Just because one believe in something greater than them does not mean that they are ignorants.
and Just because one believe in science does not mean that they are less human being than you.
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Eric, you worded something better then I did in my original post which I realize now may have been easily misinterpreted. I commented that rejecting evolution on the basis of faith will simply result in being left behind by those astute enough to recognize the importance of acknowledging the wealth of scientific support for evolution and having moved ahead toward incorporate evolution into their beliefs. My original post came across as completely anti religious beliefs with how it was worded, which is not what I intended. The point I really wanted to push was that the mentality of blindly refusing to acknowledge scientific findings based on nothing more then faith is extremely narrow minded and a disservice to society as a whole. Incorporating evolutionary theory and scientific findings as part of your faith and belief in how the world has been shaped should not, in my opinion, be at odds with religion or morals.
What irks me is blindly ignoring the vast supporting evidence for evolution without the first bit of knowledge or understanding about what it is, even in the most basic sense. To me the idea of arrogantly blowing anything off with such a large evidence base without examining it at even the most basic levels is a defining characteristic of ignorance. We are all entitled to our beliefs and the diversity of beliefs is a good thing, in my opinion, but faith should never dictate the scope of scientific education or knowledge. The truth of the matter is that the US is falling off of international education rankings in many fields. There are many reasons for this but allowing faith to dictate and limit the scope of education in the sciences is a hindrance.
Jeremy, I hope you know that you'll always get help from people on the forum, regardless of disagreements like this and I was not trying to make anyone look or feel stupid. Hopefully you understand my sentiments though about understanding something before you matter-of-factly disregard it. Adaptation is a major part of evolutionary theory. You're comments about thinking it isn't evolution as much as animals adapting to their environment really exemplifies what I mean about understanding what something is before rejecting it outright. Further, with almost every biological principle supporting or having basis in evolutionary theories, I also hope you realize why I am adamant about the importance of understanding evolution in order to better understand wildlife and nature at any level. Differentiating significant groups of organisms is a basic way to gain an increased level of understanding of what you are looking at and from an evolutionary standpoint, understanding the relative similarities between different groups of organisms (whether it be two chameleon species or chameleons and another reptiles) helps us understand a lot more about them.
Justin, I think that forum rule is pointing to topics that are not related to chameleons (nationalism, war, etc.). The use of evolutionary theory in understanding chameleons would not fall under that rule in my opinion.
Chris
What irks me is blindly ignoring the vast supporting evidence for evolution without the first bit of knowledge or understanding about what it is, even in the most basic sense. To me the idea of arrogantly blowing anything off with such a large evidence base without examining it at even the most basic levels is a defining characteristic of ignorance. We are all entitled to our beliefs and the diversity of beliefs is a good thing, in my opinion, but faith should never dictate the scope of scientific education or knowledge. The truth of the matter is that the US is falling off of international education rankings in many fields. There are many reasons for this but allowing faith to dictate and limit the scope of education in the sciences is a hindrance.
Jeremy, I hope you know that you'll always get help from people on the forum, regardless of disagreements like this and I was not trying to make anyone look or feel stupid. Hopefully you understand my sentiments though about understanding something before you matter-of-factly disregard it. Adaptation is a major part of evolutionary theory. You're comments about thinking it isn't evolution as much as animals adapting to their environment really exemplifies what I mean about understanding what something is before rejecting it outright. Further, with almost every biological principle supporting or having basis in evolutionary theories, I also hope you realize why I am adamant about the importance of understanding evolution in order to better understand wildlife and nature at any level. Differentiating significant groups of organisms is a basic way to gain an increased level of understanding of what you are looking at and from an evolutionary standpoint, understanding the relative similarities between different groups of organisms (whether it be two chameleon species or chameleons and another reptiles) helps us understand a lot more about them.
Justin, I think that forum rule is pointing to topics that are not related to chameleons (nationalism, war, etc.). The use of evolutionary theory in understanding chameleons would not fall under that rule in my opinion.
Chris
wendysjungle
New Member
I'm happy to see this thread going in a more positive direction, as I deliberately stayed off it before, not liking the way Jeremy was ganged up on. Thank you to those of you who spoke up about that, I felt I was too new here to chime in. I personally agree with many of you who have pointed out that creation and evolution are not mutually exclusive of one another, neither side deserves to be ignored, and you do not have to crush one side in order to see the validity of the other.
I got into a similar type of discussion with a fellow graduate student the other day, who couldn't fathom why she offended several people when she made a comment about "the problem with all Christians." I asked if she would have felt comfortable inserting the word "African Americans" or "Asians" or "gay people" or "Jewish people" into her statement in place of the word "Christians", or if that wouldn't then be perceived as bigoted and offensive even by her. People sometimes miss that fact, that to make sweepingly mocking and degrading statements about someone's religion (or lack thereof) is no less offensive than making those same types of statements about their race, culture, sexuality or heritage. If we are actually going to discuss such a loaded topic on a forum for chameleons (good point Justin!), then hopefully we can do so realizing that many people will have different opinions, but we can still treat each other with respect.
......and maybe get back to the ORIGINAL question of this thread, which was very interesting......
I got into a similar type of discussion with a fellow graduate student the other day, who couldn't fathom why she offended several people when she made a comment about "the problem with all Christians." I asked if she would have felt comfortable inserting the word "African Americans" or "Asians" or "gay people" or "Jewish people" into her statement in place of the word "Christians", or if that wouldn't then be perceived as bigoted and offensive even by her. People sometimes miss that fact, that to make sweepingly mocking and degrading statements about someone's religion (or lack thereof) is no less offensive than making those same types of statements about their race, culture, sexuality or heritage. If we are actually going to discuss such a loaded topic on a forum for chameleons (good point Justin!), then hopefully we can do so realizing that many people will have different opinions, but we can still treat each other with respect.
......and maybe get back to the ORIGINAL question of this thread, which was very interesting......
wendysjungle
New Member
I actually find that really interesting, and not off topic. I had a similar experience with small marsupials (sugar gliders) 10 or so years ago. I studied everything I could find before getting them, made sure I had an exotic vet who would treat them nearby, did everything exactly by the book. They did well, produced a baby.....and then all three succumbed to a mysterious illness the vet could not identify or figure out how to treat, and they died. In the process of trying to find out how to treat the, I contracted the Australia Zoo, and discovered that nearly everything Americans knew about the care of sugar gliders was incorrect. The guy I spoke with at the zoo was baffled as to why the commercially available food for them contained eucalyptus ("They LIVE in the eucalyptus trees, they don't EAT them!"), and horrified that most of us were not keeping them in tall flight cages, but rather hamster or rabbit style cages. I found out their life expectancy in captivity here in the states was less than 1/3 of what was seen in the wild, all because we had no clue what we were doing, not even the "experts." In this case, popularity and availability preceded knowledge, which is dangerous.
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
In an attempt to return the thread back to it original intent, here is a National Geographic News article from today on the F. labordi lifespan: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/06/080630-chameleon-year.html
BTW Kris, its nice to see you on the forum sharing your experiences.
Chris
BTW Kris, its nice to see you on the forum sharing your experiences.
Chris
Well, I am glad this thread has veered back to something else. And I enjoyed meeting you at SICB, Chris.
I certainly hope this does not appear too pretentious--I definitely don't intend it to be--but there are some other good articles on the paper that forum member might be interested in reading. Some of them offer fairly good explanations about some of the more technical stuff that is probably clearer than I can explain.
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/06/30/chameleon-lifespan.html
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14226-violent-sex-means-chameleons-die-young.html?DCMP=ILC-hmts&nsref=news1_head_dn14226
http://news.mongabay.com/2008/0630-chameleon.html
http://blogs.discovery.com/news_animal/2008/06/chameleons-natu.html
Of course, sometimes some of the facts get a little distorted by the popular media, but the main points still come across. There will also be a spot on NPR's 'Morning Edition' at 35 past the hour on July 1.
I'm just glad that chameleons and Madagascar are receiving some attention, which is desperately needed.
Kent67
Retired Moderator
Front page headline news on yahoo.com this morning also:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20080630/sc_livescience/creaturesetsrecordforlivingfastdyingyoung
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20080630/sc_livescience/creaturesetsrecordforlivingfastdyingyoung
Sepioteuthis
New Member
Wendy,
That's very interesting. It shows how keepers with the best intentions can be stuck relying on bad information.
Chris,
Thanks for getting us back on track
Kris,
Thanks for those links. I think it's great that this study is getting so much visibility!
I have a question, if you don't mind.
Are there other chameleon species that same the same habitat as F. labordi?
What I'm wondering is if F. labordi exposed to a more difficult climate than most chameleons in Madagascar or if it's more that F. labordi uses a different mechanism to deal with the seasonal changes than other chameleon species do.
thanks,
Suzanne
That's very interesting. It shows how keepers with the best intentions can be stuck relying on bad information.
Chris,
Thanks for getting us back on track
Kris,
Thanks for those links. I think it's great that this study is getting so much visibility!
I have a question, if you don't mind.
Are there other chameleon species that same the same habitat as F. labordi?
What I'm wondering is if F. labordi exposed to a more difficult climate than most chameleons in Madagascar or if it's more that F. labordi uses a different mechanism to deal with the seasonal changes than other chameleon species do.
thanks,
Suzanne
I'd say both your explanations are not mutually exclusive. F. labordi certainly is in one of the harshest areas of the island. But I do agree that it is a different mechanism to deal with the unpredictability of the seasonal environment, too. At my study site, you can find both F. labordi and F. verrucosus. If I head a little futher south, I can add F. antimena, F. belalandaensis, F. lateralis , and F. oustaleti into the mix. Although the area to the south is slightly different in vegetation, they are both characterized by the same general climate: very hot, desert-like, with unpredictable rainfall (when it actually does rain). The lateralis in this region are slightly larger than labordi, and what we suspect is that maybe due to their small size, desiccation during aestivation in the dry season would post a real threat. This would result in selection for shorter life span and earlier age of reproduction. The only other chameleon that is smaller than labordi in this general area is one species of Brookesia, but it is restricted only to riparian, moist habitats along the major rivers (the Onilahy, Monombo, and maybe the Fiherenana). So we don't know the answer for sure (yet), but this is one hypothesis. Certainly there are other species in this region who do survive the dry season by aestivating under ground. F. labordi just found a different, really unique, solution to solve the same problem.
Kent67
Retired Moderator
Kris, I've found the results of your study fascinating all along but reading that just left me drooling. F. labordi has always been one of my favorite species; ever since seeing pictures in an old issue of The Vivarium magazine. Seeing all of MAdagascar, including the west and southwest especially, is something I hope to do in the very near future. Would you, by any chance, have any pictures you could share with us? As F. belalandaensis is so rare, F. antimena also quite beautiful, and my own personal interest in the F. lateralis of the region I always love seeing pics of them! Thanks for taking an active interest in this thread.
Sepioteuthis
New Member
Thanks Kris! Very interesting stuff.
I read in one the linked articles that you marked the chameleons and even outfitted a few with radiotransmitters. I'm curious, how far from the nest does a labordi wander in those busy 4 months?
Did you find a difference in population density between the juveniles and the adults? I can imagine them scattering after hatching to reduce competition for food and then clustering again during mating season.
(I've worked on a researched project to study the 'body language' of caribbean reef squid and though the focus was on courtship and agonistic behavior I was really fascinated by the schooling behavior and dynamics. )
- Suzanne
I read in one the linked articles that you marked the chameleons and even outfitted a few with radiotransmitters. I'm curious, how far from the nest does a labordi wander in those busy 4 months?
Did you find a difference in population density between the juveniles and the adults? I can imagine them scattering after hatching to reduce competition for food and then clustering again during mating season.
(I've worked on a researched project to study the 'body language' of caribbean reef squid and though the focus was on courtship and agonistic behavior I was really fascinated by the schooling behavior and dynamics. )
- Suzanne
I've never actually seen F. belalandaensis, despite intensive searching at known GPS localities, so I do not have any pictures to share. One of my colleauges has found it in 1995 and also just recently in 2008, so it still exists. I have a better idea of the specific vegetation to look in next time I go back, but that will have to wait.
All my pictures of F. lateralis are from the highlands, so I don't have any photos of the Toliara populations to share. Sorry.
I do have some really cool pictures of F. antimena. I will have to see if I can dig those up...I haven't needed them for years so I can't remember where I have them.
Although typically considered a rather drab or boring species by many, one of my favorite pictures I've taken is of a beautiful F. verrucosus male. I've also got some good ones of F. balteatus, C. parsonii, C. oshaughnessyi, and C. brevicornis. Sorry for the teasers with no pictures to deliver, but I'll see if I can get some posted when I have time.
Because I have not published those data yet, I am a bit reserved about sharing the details of that part of the study just yet. But I can tell you that they actually wander relative vast distances. I've measured males moving up to 50 meters a day and wandering over large, indefensible home ranges. They move around much more than F. verrucosus. I need to get off my butt and publish those data, but that project is buried under some others I need to get to first.
I only have population density data for adults only in F. labordi. But subjectively, I did not notice any qualitative differences between finding juveniles vs. adults--we found both frequently throughout the wet season.
Sepioteuthis
New Member
Thanks for sharing that and I'll keep an eye out for future publications.
A boring chameleon??? [Vizzini] Inconceivable! [/Vizzini]
- Suzanne
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SSimsswiSS
Avid Member
The male Verrucosus I keep is full of personality. Always on the go, when not sunbathing. He's also the best when it comes to camouflage. Turn your back and he's gone.
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