Liquid calcium...

[Jerm]

Hi,
Just curious if anyone is currently using liquid calcium for gravid females. I use if for my panthers before and after laying, but is it safe to use on montane species? I'm concidering it for rudis that just gave birth to 11 babies. That has to be taking alot out of her. Any experience with this suppliment or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Jam]

My veiled's been on it for over two months. You just have to be careful that you don't OVER calcify them -- it can start to calcify their organs too if given in too large of doses, according to my vet. We just have him on a low dose once a day.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

I would advise against it, except for medical reasons. IF a chameleon has a calcium emergency, THEN use medication. Otherwise, normal calcium supplemtation is more than adequate.

I keep neocalglucon for emergency uses - but I would never use it regularly.

It can cause digestive issues, not to mention the risk of over supplementation. the amount of supplementation required is pretty small to begin with.

Animals should recieve calcium as a SUPPLEMENTATION to their diet, to make up for something they might not be getting - in this case, calcium and D3.

Using an emergency calcium, like neocal, as a regular supplementation, is not a good idea. Besides the fact that it's a waste of money, and sticky, it's also likely to cause loose stool, which can cause dehydration.

When you have a healthy animal, and you medicate it like it's a sick animal, you're going to make it sick eventually.

 

[Jerm]

I would advise against it, except for medical reasons. IF a chameleon has a calcium emergency, THEN use medication. Otherwise, normal calcium supplemtation is more than adequate.

I keep neocalglucon for emergency uses - but I would never use it regularly.

It can cause digestive issues, not to mention the risk of over supplementation. the amount of supplementation required is pretty small to begin with.

Animals should recieve calcium as a SUPPLEMENTATION to their diet, to make up for something they might not be getting - in this case, calcium and D3.

Using an emergency calcium, like neocal, as a regular supplementation, is not a good idea. Besides the fact that it's a waste of money, and sticky, it's also likely to cause loose stool, which can cause dehydration.

When you have a healthy animal, and you medicate it like it's a sick animal, you're going to make it sick eventually.

So you're saying that liquid calcium isn't a good idea during and after egg production? One of my female rudis has a soft pliable jaw bone after giving birth. She is the one that I was concidering using it on. In what case do you think that it would be extreme enough to use liquid calcium?

 

[Eric Adrignola]

If you have a symptom, treat it, of course. That is exactly what the stuff is best used for. However, recently, I have seen a rise in the use of neocalglucon as a regular dietary supplement.

Ideally, normally supplemented animals will not have calcium problems, and the stuff isn't needed. Things don't always work perfectly, and neocalglucon is the best choice in those circumstances.

I just think it's being used incorrectly by a growing number of people.

For a chameleon showing signs of calcium problems, by all means, it's a good choice. But as a replacement for gutloading/repcal, etc, no - it's not a good choice. Think of it as medicine, not supplementation.

 

[Jerm]

Thanks for the input Eric. I know that it can be easily overdosed so it's better to be safe than sorry.

 

[lele]

watch the dosage...

I agree with everything Eric said. I had a veiled with Ca problems and used it for never longer than 2 weeks (and that seemed excessive). It is potent stuff and dose is determined by the animals weight, so make sure you are giving appropriate amounts.

you said One of my female rudis has a soft pliable jaw bone after giving birth. Sounds like you may not be supplementing properly before and during.

You can try offering higher calcium feeders, such as silkworms, before and during. No matter what I did, Luna would pull the calcium from her bones and in one case calcitonin got her back on track. HOWEVER this must be done under the guidance of a qualified vet. Blood test needs to determine Ca/blood level. I also think that NCG should be with vet guidance unless you have used it and know what/when and how much.

It is so easy to buy online and I have seen some real variations on recommended dosing levels.

 

[lele]

My veiled's been on it for over two months. You just have to be careful that you don't OVER calcify them -- it can start to calcify their organs too if given in too large of doses, according to my vet. We just have him on a low dose once a day.

why is your cham on a DAILY dose of this?? Small amount or not. Did he have really serious MBD? Does your vet do regular Ca/blood level tests? I'd be VERY careful in doing this daily for 2 months. IS there an end or has your vet recommended this as a life long medication - if so, I'd find another vet.

Don;t mean to sound harsh, but I think many people are using this rather than providing calcium in feeders, gutload and proper dusting - as well as UVB lighting (changed regularly)

 

[Jerm]

I agree with everything Eric said. I had a veiled with Ca problems and used it for never longer than 2 weeks (and that seemed excessive). It is potent stuff and dose is determined by the animals weight, so make sure you are giving appropriate amounts.

you said One of my female rudis has a soft pliable jaw bone after giving birth. Sounds like you may not be supplementing properly before and during.

You can try offering higher calcium feeders, such as silkworms, before and during. No matter what I did, Luna would pull the calcium from her bones and in one case calcitonin got her back on track. HOWEVER this must be done under the guidance of a qualified vet. Blood test needs to determine Ca/blood level. I also think that NCG should be with vet guidance unless you have used it and know what/when and how much.

It is so easy to buy online and I have seen some real variations on recommended dosing levels.

Yes, everything that I do is either suggested by my vet or run by him for his opinion. He is the one that pointed out to me that my female rudis has a pliable jaw. That is a good way to determine that they aren't being supplimented enough calcium. This female is wc and I did under suppliment her which I am working on correcting. I don't use near as much supplimentation for my montane species as I do for panthers. I think that I was under doing it though. She is the only one so far with this issue. I used the others to compare also. I do feed silkies and occasional phoenix worms. This particular female has other problems which may be contributing to this issue too. Thanks for the input!

 

[Jerm]

why is your cham on a DAILY dose of this?? Small amount or not. Did he have really serious MBD? Does your vet do regular Ca/blood level tests? I'd be VERY careful in doing this daily for 2 months. IS there an end or has your vet recommended this as a life long medication - if so, I'd find another vet.

Don;t mean to sound harsh, but I think many people are using this rather than providing calcium in feeders, gutload and proper dusting - as well as UVB lighting (changed regularly)

Daily does seem very excessive, even in a small amount. I used it once a week just before and after the egg laying process. The amount is determined by body weight. I'm going to do more research for future treatments though.

 

[Jam]

Yes, hermie did have VERY severe MBD. All four legs broke and he had almost NO bone density anywhere but his spine. He has since healed his broken bones and gained bone density. The problem is that we could NOT figure out why he got MBD -- his crickets are properly gut loaded, they were dusted quite frequently and I had UVB bulb (by reptisun I think, but NOT ESU) that was changed every 3 months. We are monitoring him by redoing xrays to monitor his bone density but they are still not "normal" looking bones yet, and my vet did not want to chance us going back where we started (he had casts on all four legs), so we are weaning him off of the liquid calcium. he gets the lowest rec. dose once a day (he was on a high dose twice a day when this first started). He goes back in another couple weeks to be re-xrayed so that we can make sure that his bones are not loosing bm, are hopefully gaining bone mass, and that he is not over calcifying.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

Veiled chameleons, if feed excessivly when very young, can develop a growth rate that is so fast, they literally outgrow their body's ability to calcify bone.

I have seen veileds kept in sunlight - unfiltered, natural, summer sun in NC - develop severe MBD.

Sometimes, the calcium supplement is to blame - some just do not work.
What kind were you using?

 

[Jam]

I have a feelings that it was because I grew him too fast ... by trying to be a good "chameleon mom" I fed him as much as he would eat ... usually 20 crickets a day. I had never heard of that problem until you mentioned it a little while ago. If I go with a youngster again i will definately have to be more careful.

I was/am using repcal with D3 (he doesn't really get any good unfiltered sunlight). I had even bought a new batch of supplements when I got him, so at the time he broke his legs they were 3 months old (within the expiration date). I also used reptavite. At the time I was dusting with calcium everyday and with reptavite everyother day ... I have since cut back since I've read more about over supplementing. Hermie's not a fan of crickets period anymore -- simply wants silk worms and wax worms as a treat which I have been having a hard time dusting... do they need dusting too? He also eats apple sauce, pear baby food and banana/oatmeal baby food.

 

[Fate X]

the dose is usually 1 drop per week per animal under 110 grams and 2 drops if they are over 110 grams .i would only use it if i had to.