list of staple diet without crickets, roaches, or other potential infestation risk

[Franquixote]

I'll look into the orange heads! I appreciate the honesty (and advice) regarding escapees. I think that I would have to have several safeguards before bringing a roach colony into my house. The building I work in (a VERY large urban school district with 6+ cafeterias, a restaurant, and a culinary arts program) is loaded with at least 3-4 different species of roach and they can be found even in the dead of winter when the weather outside dips to the minuses and the indoor temps hover around 68 or so.
My thought for any insect with even remote possibility of escaping and reproducing would be a plastic box inside a larger box with an inch or so of diatomaceous earth and rimmed with glue traps.
I'm interested in the mantises, it seems as if an ooth in the enclosure would hatch out over the course of a few days or weeks to provide an ongoing source of live food and act as security guards for any stray bugs not picked of by the lizard. I am also looking into some pitcher plants for the Madagascar biome I want to create which seem like another way to keep stragglers from wandering too much.
The last thing I was thinking was the blue flies which I would think would provide the chameleon with some stimulation trying to catch them and seems like minimally risky as far as escapes-
Anyone have additional thoughts on the flies?

 

[jamest0o0]

I use the flies as a normal staple about 1-2x a week gutloaded on bee pollen and honey. Throw them in the fridge and they slow down and you can dust them, or just put a hidden cup where your cham can't get them in the enclosure. I also throw BSFL in my substrate and they turn into soldier flies. Honestly I understand the worry with roaches, but the ones that infest and ones that live on forest floors are very different. The tropical roaches are even pretty picky with what they eat, I doubt you could find one person who lives in a room temp house that had a dubia or oh infestation.. my gf and i were pretty grossed out at the thought of Roaches and in time I've realized how different they are from what I imagined.

Nepenthes work great for catching gnats and stuff(I use those, sundews and butterworts), but I doubt any of them would catch roaches, crickets, etc. Maybe a large harder to keep type...
Which kind were you looking At? I'm curious myself.

Anyway, just trying to give you some reassurance. You'll need crickets or roaches, nothing else gutloads like them imo.

 

[Franquixote]

Thanks for the reassurance! I am looking into indigenous pitchers- not cheap from the suppliers I have found but worth it for me to make the setup a genuine biome:

https://www.predatoryplants.com/Nepenthes-madagascariensis-p/nep-mad.htm

I will update my biome thread in a few days, so far I am considering the pitchers, some jasmine-like flowering vine, a baobab bonsai, and I think ylang-ylang is native too, but still researching that. Also some native hibiscus.
I already have a mature ficus that's about 20 years old and thinking about defoliating it down to about 50% of it's present size to fit into the enclosure.

 

[Andee]

Blue bottle flies are not easy to breed from what I understand though I haven't looked into them deeply. But like most flies they need specific laying areas and need a lot of room. The ones I have researched the most and will be raising year round inside are Black Soldier Flies. But flies in general are a wonderful thing, they don't make a great staple diet because it takes a huge amount to fill up a cham and you can't really gutload them well. But they are amazing for enrichment and natural hunting instincts for your cham, and also good for exercising their tongues. Some people swear by them for helping them break a hunger strike with their chams. I always recommend having them on hand or at least having somewhere you can get them for quick and cheap.

 

[KrazyZen]

Dubia roaches are really easy to breed and take care of and the big seller for me that makes me prefer them over crickets is unlike crickets they don't smell as bad if you keep there container clean and are quiet also. unlike crikets. but i will offer my chameleons crickets once in awhile but would rather give phoenix worms and super worms if i have them around instead.

 

[jamest0o0]

Banded crickets don't smell at all for me

 

[KrazyZen]

actually black soldier fly larvae aka phoenix worms, nutrigrubs are high on calcium and protein.

 

[Andee]

Yes but the fly loses a lot of that after it turns from larvae/maggot into fly, and the flies themselves don't eat

 

[Franquixote]

Exactly right on the "enrichment"- seems like with an active animal like a male panther, chasing flies around would improve the quality of life for the animal and be interesting to observe.
I don't picture myself being able to raise them easily, I was thinking that when the opportunity presents itself at a reptile show or with a fly in the house I would take advantage. I know there are risks to feeding wild foods but considering that I myself only eat meat that I (or family/friends) harvest(about 99% deer) and that we regularly hunt wild mushrooms, raspberries, etc. that I'm not doing anything I wouldn't do for myself or family : )

Does anyone know of a comprehensive resource that lists nutritional values for feeder insects? It seems like that information should be available even if it has to be cobbled together from various sources.
Here's an old thread that supports the idea of flies further:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/the-power-of-gut-loading-and-the-blue-bottle-fly.15755/

Considering that keeping reptiles has experienced a bit of a renaissance in the last few years, there is definitely demand for this info. It seems to me that aside from the preferences of certain specimens for certain prey, there ought to be some consensus based on scientific data about which species we should focus on. Clearly with roaches, for example, there are a dozen species readily available and it seems much of it is guesswork and convenience rather than logic that informs decisions.

Many of the feeder insects have similar needs as far as heat, humidity, and feed, but it doesn't seem like anyone offers a setup that allows a keeper to raise a half dozen or so colonies without redundant lighting, heat humidity, etc. Seems like a 40 gallon long aquarium with some vertical dividers, a single light source, humidifier, etc. should suffice to raise half a dozen staple foods without the footprint of doing them separately. I do this with aquarium live foods, my blackworms, daphnia, copepods, etc. run off the same equipment- haven't seen this with feeder insects at all.

Does anyone do things this way? If you have several staple colonies utilizing the same equipment please share your ideas, no reason to have an entire wall of tanks doing the same thing!

 

[Andee]

I would never feed wild flies unless they were a pollinator species for sure. I see no issue with feeding wild insects otherwise as long as they aren't toxic and you get regular fecals.

Wild flies have been in garbage, feces, rotting meat... unless they are polinator species or composter species.

As far as keeping multiple species in one enclosure, it depends on what the insects need, what temps and humidity they need. I use rubbermaid bins, and use flex watt heat tape for most of my feeder since most of my feeder such as roaches etc, need the same heat levels. I also use the same thermostat, and such for them. However, a lot of feeders if you do a breeding colony need more space than a separated 40 gallon could give them. But then again I know people who keep 250-500 crickets in large cricket keepers... and I just throw my hands up at that. But I love insects, whether they are feeders or just species I keep for myself. It's one of the reasons I sell my insects as well as I do. Because I will sit there with people and go through a personalized care sheet with people over and over to make sure they have it. I welcome any customers or anyone whose just having issues with their colonies who haven't bought from me, with open arms because I want to help make their insects as healthy as possible. Healthy and happy insects mean healthy reptiles. What most people don't get is roaches show huge signs of stress. And most people don't know how to recognize it because their roaches are stressed ALL the time. I can feed my roaches from my hand if I stand there for about two minutes. Even the skittish males will come up. My roaches when being shipped will communicate with each other in the deli cups.

It's just.... I love my insects and will never recommend skimping on space. People think keeping T's is cheap and space saving, but that's only because they don't give them what they need just what they survive on.

Sorry for the rant XD

 

[jamest0o0]

I just put any insects that need heat in a heated closet(with an energy efficient space heater). The rest either go in a mini fridge or just at room temp. Done.

 

[Franquixote]

Not a rant at all- the community needs people like you!

I'm researching nutritional info now and will post as I find it along with any premade breeding kits I happen upon.

Here's a great start:

soldier fly colony culture setup:

http://newatlas.com/farm-432-fly-larva-food/28509/

Insects that can serve as human food information:
http://www.secretsofsurvival.com/survival/insect-harvesting-flies.html

the top 10 edible insects of North America (human consumption as well !)
http://www.secretsofsurvival.com/survival/top-10-edible-insects.html

Nutritional content of the superworm(Zophobas morio)
https://usedview.com/nutritional-content-of-the-superwormzophobas-morio/
Nutritional content of silkworms:
http://cornishedibleinsects.co.uk/index.php/product/silkworm-pupae/
conflicting data:
https://www.thailandunique.com/edible-silkworm-pupae



I'll do the work on creating a resource that lists nutritional values for as many insects as I can find but I need some advice on the best format to use.
In addition to just fat, protein, and calories, we can include other info like minerals and vitamins. Nothing immediately comes to mind as the best way to present this- does anyone have any ideas about what format or file type to use to best display this info? Seems like a spreadsheet would be too confusing...

 

[Andee]

I have not yet found that unit for sale. And I plan on breeding far more BSFL than that unit can provide. I will still be doing indoors. So I can have it year round. But I will be doing a minimum of 3 foot tall enclosure.

 

[Franquixote]

They are offering a mealworm setup for sale beginning October 2017- I contacted them to see if they had any soldier fly kits they might be willing to sell. I'll post if I hear back.
In the meantime, if you sign up now you can get a $30 coupon and be one of the first to get one:

http://www.livinstudio.com/farm432/

 

[Andee]

Mealworms aren't hard to set up XD they are easier than the superworms I have now. If I wanted to breed them it would likely take me a couple hours to build an enclosure that I spent less than 30 dollars on.