PEPPERQUILL1
New Member
Oh, and please raise your hand if you haven't bent some of these regulations
-Brad
What regulations have been bent?I hope you are not refering to illigally importing Chameleonidae.
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What regulations have been bent?I hope you are not refering to illigally importing Chameleonidae.
Brad Ramsey
Retired Moderator
Pepperquill,
Sorry to alarm you.
I am certainly not referring to illegal importation of chameleons, but rather the keeping of certain roaches or creating a more sensible sense of ethics where agencies like the USDA are concerned.
I apologize for not being clear. It was more to make a point (throwing stones while living in glass houses).
I am an advocate of captive breeding if I am an advocate of keeping these animals at all.
Sorry for the confusion my off-handed remark may have caused....thanks for helping me clear it up quickly!
-Brad
Sorry to alarm you.
I am certainly not referring to illegal importation of chameleons, but rather the keeping of certain roaches or creating a more sensible sense of ethics where agencies like the USDA are concerned.
I apologize for not being clear. It was more to make a point (throwing stones while living in glass houses).
I am an advocate of captive breeding if I am an advocate of keeping these animals at all.
Sorry for the confusion my off-handed remark may have caused....thanks for helping me clear it up quickly!
-Brad
pohchunyee
Avid Member
it is cool for Curtis to actually getting involve in this conversation. Cos a lot of us never seen anything like this in almost 10 years. Plus in your classified you said and i quote..."don't harrass you with emails and phone call" thats why we are all confused and having debate about the origin of this species. Sorry if thats caused any misunderstanding and difficulty to you.
pohchunyee
Avid Member
I am not suggesting that all Parsonii are illegal. I was suggesting that, Parson was first imported/smuggled into Europe back in the 80's and 90's and have a huge colony in Europe. Then, they successfully bred parson and thats when a CB Parson is being available.
curtis
New Member
I don't know if she is cb or not, all I know is she was sold to me as cb. There are no marks on her, she had no parisites when she arrived, and thats all I know. As far as her her being legal, yes she is legal. Me saying not to harrass was me just wanting to sell or not sell my girl in peace. I have no proplem talking about my girl but I don't want a third degree over trying to sell her. I work with alot a chameleons and Parsonii included, and I don't mind talking about any of them. I just dont like being questioned about them, and I'm sure if the table was turned, no one would like it. I have seen Parsonii listed for over $3000.00 by Chris and others, and I didnt hear anybody saying anything to them. Hell, I bought over half the parsonii listed and never thought I was paying to much, if I think its to much then I just don't but it. I have well over 100 chameleons, and its hard work as we all know, so dont think I'm trying to sell her to make a buck, I'm really not like that. Also, you meen to tell me noone thinks a chameleon this rare should not be posted high to keep the less experience away? Trust me when I say this, I am really trying to get someone to say they had male and we could have worked together on breeding. I have very high standards when it come to my chameleons, and if I do sell her... she WILL be in good hands.
Curtis
Curtis
Heika
New Member
Wow, this is out of the blue. I thought I was involved in an interesting conversation, not a controversy. It seems to me that a few people have their hackles up about this thread.. down, down! It is a simple discussion, nothing more.
Good to see you here, Curtis. I believe I saw a picture of that animal when she was imported, and you have done a nice job with her.
Heika
Heika
New Member
Thanks, Holland, that is helpful.
Do you know how strictly this is actually enforced in other countries? Like, animals entering European countries.. are the CITES paperwork really combed over?
Heika
PEPPERQUILL1
New Member
F1 paperwork is hard to get in any country that is a member of CITES their must be proof and authority's must come to the facilities and document the breeding.It is a very thorough process.Specially countries like the US and Europe every animal is looked at it is very hard to smuggle with out FWC or CITES catching it even if it is in a pocket.
PEPPERQUILL1
New Member
They were imported legally in Europe in the 80's no need to smuggle it would probably cost more to smuggle them in.Actually not as I said in my last post for an animal to have an f1 permit it must have a trail of legal papers backing up to the past generations.Theirfore they couldn't be exported to the US even if they were smuggled into Europe.
Heika
New Member
So this is how that Tanzanian farm's animals are imported? Because they are F1 animals, correct?
Couldn't the same be done in Madagascar? A farm that breeds and distributes true F1 animals.. sure would cut down on illegal exports.
Heika
PEPPERQUILL1
New Member
Yes and the Tanzania goverment is always their making sure of it.Every one is checked before leaving.Chamelon farms are in Madagascar I know of three, they are replenishing the enviorment before they will export them.I have the information on two farms I will post tomorrow.You can visit them.I think the other farm does export but not to the US we will not pay the prices they want, the Europeans will.
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Heika
New Member
That is interesting.. I would love to see the information you have. I didn't even realize they existed, and I find it very reassuring. I am surprised to hear that the US market doesn't generate enough response to justify import.. the Tanzanian farmed animals seem to sell really well.
PEPPERQUILL1
New Member
Yes but at the rate the forest is being slash/burned they won't have to worry about how many chameleons they have.You see everyone saying $3,000 thats way to much I can't afford it thats what they go for the Europeans will take as many as they can get at $3,000 and offer more.The Tanzanian stuff does ok because their is so little imported the other 9/10 of the quota goes to Europe and other countries.
Kent67
Retired Moderator
Curtis, thank you for posting. That's basically what I assumed from the beginning and I hope you realize my interest is the subject rather than the seller. And if she was for sale at $300 or $30,000 is irrelevant. I assume I know the importer but that's a whole other story. The animal in question was legally imported, however I wouldn't bet either way on cb vs wc origin either. I especially appreciate your willingness to keep her if the right buyer doesn't come along, which is what I hope you do anyway. Maybe you could be the first to show parthenogenesis in a chameleon? Anyway, thanks for your honesty and wc or cb, once she was already here I'm glad she found her way into capable hands.
My position is this: Smuggling wildlife is wrong. I don't think it should be supported in any way, and I don't understand how people who say "I'm in it for the animals" can think any other way. It is correct that the CITES decision refers to animals that are wild taken only. To date it still amazes me that no one has taken the initiative to legally farm and export chameleons from Madagascar. It must be easier said than done. Tanzania would be a good example of rare species getting low quotas for true farm raised animals. Also, studies have shown that limited collecting for the pet trade, especially during certain times of the year does not hurt populations. I think that more species should be allowed out, but obviously with lower quotas than the "weedy" species. Hopefully that will occur one day.
On a second note, I've seen the lists of Calumma and Furcifer species for sale in Germany. There are far too many available for me to believe, even entertain the thought for a moment, that they are all CB. Also, if anyone knows of any links to pictures of "colonies" of Calumma in Europe let's see them. Maybe some European breeders that have pictures of hatching babies? Are there any European based breeders that have websites like the ones here? Until I'm proven wrong I'll continue to say that the idea of people living in very temperate Germany successfully raising and breeding these animals in large colonies INDOORS with more success than anyone in the US has ever had is reaaaaaaaally hard to swallow. Unless they've got some chameleon magic they aren't sharing.
My position is this: Smuggling wildlife is wrong. I don't think it should be supported in any way, and I don't understand how people who say "I'm in it for the animals" can think any other way. It is correct that the CITES decision refers to animals that are wild taken only. To date it still amazes me that no one has taken the initiative to legally farm and export chameleons from Madagascar. It must be easier said than done. Tanzania would be a good example of rare species getting low quotas for true farm raised animals. Also, studies have shown that limited collecting for the pet trade, especially during certain times of the year does not hurt populations. I think that more species should be allowed out, but obviously with lower quotas than the "weedy" species. Hopefully that will occur one day.
On a second note, I've seen the lists of Calumma and Furcifer species for sale in Germany. There are far too many available for me to believe, even entertain the thought for a moment, that they are all CB. Also, if anyone knows of any links to pictures of "colonies" of Calumma in Europe let's see them. Maybe some European breeders that have pictures of hatching babies? Are there any European based breeders that have websites like the ones here? Until I'm proven wrong I'll continue to say that the idea of people living in very temperate Germany successfully raising and breeding these animals in large colonies INDOORS with more success than anyone in the US has ever had is reaaaaaaaally hard to swallow. Unless they've got some chameleon magic they aren't sharing.
I agree. Thanks for posting Curtis.
For a more general discussion not related to the animal for sale at kingsnake, people may want to view the thread started recently by hairfarm67 (linked below).
[THREAD=4070]Madagascar Chameleons[/THREAD]
PEPPERQUILL1
New Member
You must not look very hard or know much about what your saying.
http://www.dutchchameleontrader.nl/eng/fotos.htm
You are proven wrong.
http://www.tanalahy.com/forum/especes-vf3.html?sid=abcf5b081ada6d9baeaee88583059eb3
actually a bigger forum then this one based in Germany
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Kent67
Retired Moderator
I'm not sure what you've proven exactly. Where is the colony? I already knew it wasn't impossible to reproduce them, that's nothing new. That is a nice collection of chameleons, though. All I see represented are a few adults and a couple of clutches of parsonii though. The other species are adults, no pictures of babies. What does that prove other than they are able to get animals that we can't get more easily?
As for the German forum, I wonder why it's all in French. I'll slowly be perusing it looking for evidence of breeding of the suspended malagasy species, but so far in the first few pages i don't see anything at all.
PEPPERQUILL1
New Member
That is Chameleon Trade House all their animals have been legally collected they work closly with the authorities.It proves they are breeding parsonii.Theirs different parts to the forum sorry about that correct me French I belive their right next door.Why don't you leave that up to the authorities?As long as an animal has valid permits it doesent matter.
Kent67
Retired Moderator
and a quick quote from the French forum:
C'est pour ça que j'ai un gros doute sur l'espèce de l'animal, et un énorme soupçon sur la provenance s'il s'agit bien d'un Furcifer Minor. Le vendeur ne devrait, légalement, pas avoir dans son magasin.
Via http://ets.freetranslation.com/:
This is for that that I have a big doubt on the type of the animal, and a huge suspicion on the origin if it is a question well of a Furcifer Minor. The salesman would not have, legally, to have in his store.
Here's a reply to a request for info on F. minor:
"si tu débutes, n'y songe pas vraiment. Les animaux de ton animalerie sont des sauvages à presque 99%. C'est pas un bon choix pour un débutant"
If you begin, does not there think really. The animals of your pet shop are wild to almost 99%. This is not a good choice for a beginner.
C'est pour ça que j'ai un gros doute sur l'espèce de l'animal, et un énorme soupçon sur la provenance s'il s'agit bien d'un Furcifer Minor. Le vendeur ne devrait, légalement, pas avoir dans son magasin.
Via http://ets.freetranslation.com/:
This is for that that I have a big doubt on the type of the animal, and a huge suspicion on the origin if it is a question well of a Furcifer Minor. The salesman would not have, legally, to have in his store.
Here's a reply to a request for info on F. minor:
"si tu débutes, n'y songe pas vraiment. Les animaux de ton animalerie sont des sauvages à presque 99%. C'est pas un bon choix pour un débutant"
If you begin, does not there think really. The animals of your pet shop are wild to almost 99%. This is not a good choice for a beginner.
Kent67
Retired Moderator
....says a retailer of threatened reptiles. Again, nothing new.
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