Madagascar and CITES (legal Parson's, etc. exports?)

[eisentrauti]

Personally, owning a Parsonii would be a dream come true. Still, I wonder if importers will pass along import prices to the general public ?

As for breeding them, veteran chameleon enthusiast Susan James told me that she was extremely successful with breeding Parsonii. So much so, that she would generally give them away . Where was I??????????

Anyways, that is great new Kent. Thanks for sharing!

Why should importers give them away to import prices ? Should they live from welfare programms. Parsoniis shouldnt be traded under a sum which helps them not to end in the wrong hands (like 10000s of dilepis, gracilis, tavetana etc did)

Any prooves on this "extrem success" ? So far I dont know of a single person who had "extrem success" with parsoniis.

Owning one parsonii is btw a bad idea. People should house at least a pair or groups. Every single parsonii kept is a parsonii which doesnt help to support captive breeding

 

[eisentrauti]

I hope so.
Hopefully they will be imported by responsable persons who do not just sell them to anybody who pays for it...
Do you know if this regulation only affects the USA or Europe, too?

No, first of all its only a recommandation to the authority of Madagascar. If the authority allows exports, the EU must decide if imports should be allowed or not. With bad luck all the quotas will end in the USA like the Uroplatus quotas did

 

[lumbasammler]

No, first of all its only a recommandation to the authority of Madagascar. If the authority allows exports, the EU must decide if imports should be allowed or not. With bad luck all the quotas will in the USA like the Uroplatus quotas did

That would be quite a pity...

 

[bighutch917]

Why should importers give them away to import prices ? Should they live from welfare programms. Parsoniis shouldnt be traded under a sum which helps them not to end in the wrong hands (like 10000s of dilepis, gracilis, tavetana etc did)

Any prooves on this "extrem success" ? So far I dont know of a single person who had "extrem success" with parsoniis.

Owning one parsonii is btw a bad idea. People should house at least a pair or groups. Every single parsonii kept is a parsonii which doesnt help to support captive breeding

You're missing the point, which is, a trade lift may reduce prices and make them affordable for enthusiasts.

Do you know Susan James? I recommend that you do further research before commenting on the experience of another enthusiast.

Personally, I think your comment has little to no merit.

 

[Chuck G]

Wow! Just saw this post. I am pretty excited about the possibility of new species available.

 

[Chris Anderson]

Hello again young man. Tanya says hi.

I for one, after 15 yrs of not having a Parsons, will most certainly finish my greatest project in 35 years of keeping Reptiles. That being to get at least one clutch of eggs to hatch from Parsonii. I was so damn close back in 95' and that means you know I'll do my best to work on some bloodlines

Good to see you too, Ralph. Hope you and Tanya and the kids are well and glad to see you back into chams!

I hope so.
Hopefully they will be imported by responsable persons who do not just sell them to anybody who pays for it...
Do you know if this regulation only affects the USA or Europe, too?

In addition to CITES Appendix listings and bans of importation based on recommendations from CITES, which all CITES signatory countries are subject to, the EU also has an Annex system. Currently all these species are on Annex B, which is no different than any other chameleon, but what it means is that even if legal CITES documents are issued by Madagascar that would be accepted by other countries, the EU can decide not to issue an import permit for them. So ultimately it may or may not change their legal importation into the EU.

You think this will also affect Brookesia? I agree with everything that has been said. Mixed feelings about such an increase in availability; it may show more harm than good.

LPR08

Brookesia quotas are unrelated to the 1994/5 recommendation to prohibit import of the Calumma and Furcifer species in question so it should have no effect on their export.

As for breeding them, veteran chameleon enthusiast Susan James told me that she was extremely successful with breeding Parsonii. So much so, that she would generally give them away . Where was I??????????

Do you know Susan James? I recommend that you do further research before commenting on the experience of another enthusiast.

Personally, I think your comment has little to no merit.

bighutch - Unfortunately you are mistaking. Susan kept quite a few C. parsonii but was never able to breed, successfully hatch and raise any herself, let alone be extremely successful doing so and give any way. She had a lot of breeding successes with other species but not with C. parsonii. You must be thinking of other species she worked with.

Chris

 

[bighutch917]

Chris....I am not mistaken. My information came directly from the horse's mouth. We shared many conversations on both a personal and hobbyist level and that is what she told me. I am in no position to confirm or deny the validity of her statetment.

 

[eisentrauti]

You're missing the point, which is, a trade lift may reduce prices and make them affordable for enthusiasts.

Do you know Susan James? I recommend that you do further research before commenting on the experience of another enthusiast.

Personally, I think your comment has little to no merit.

The problem is that parsoniis priced 500$ are in my opinion still too cheap, cause a parsonii cage costs way more ...
I know that Susan James has breed numerous species, but I didnt hear anything about your statement that she has had "extreme success" with breeding parsoniis. Chris told you the same so I guess I'm not that wrong

It seems as if I have some more prooves to my statements and a bit more knowledge about this business than you do so I dont care much if you dont like them

 

[eisentrauti]

Chris....I am not mistaken. My information came directly from the horse's mouth. We shared many conversations on both a personal and hobbyist level and that is what she told me. I am in no position to confirm or deny the validity of her statetment.

I've just checked the whole adcham yahoo group and I found 0 threads from her about any own CBs. She has had a group of CH babies 10 years ago, but they were from Ken K. and others.

 

[showjet95]

Why is it saying on the iucnredlist site that many of these "banned" chameleon species from Madagascar are being collected legally since 1994? collection outside reserves is permitted and illegal export represents a potential threat (C. Raxworthy pers. comm. May 2011).

 

[rantotro]

This would not solve the problem of the parsons females, that have to change the seasons completely when they are transported from the southern to the northern hemisphere.
Most of them will die with their first clutch after the transport like it was before.
If somebody wants to breed with WC or farm bred females from Madagascar, he should settle down in the southern hemisphere to do this. Otherwise he has to import them in eggs.
But to get legal males could be a genetic support for the existing populations in the northern hemisphere. So these are good news. I hope it will work in my lifetime. Thanks for sharing this information.

 

[Carlton]

As for breeding them, veteran chameleon enthusiast Susan James told me that she was extremely successful with breeding Parsonii. So much so, that she would generally give them away .

Um sounds like wishful thinking or a misunderstanding to me. I've been a member of old cham forums, ADCHAM, CIN, etc. and never heard this. We would have been totally thrilled. Certainly Susan had an unusual touch with chams but just where are all those parsonii she produced? Was there some sort of vow of secrecy or something? And, why didn't any of them produce offspring of their own in other enthusiast hands? Now Ardi Abate and Ken Kalisch did produce a few cbb parsonii years ago.

 

[eisentrauti]

Um sounds like wishful thinking to me. Certainly Susan had an unusual touch with chams but just where are all those parsonii she produced? Was there some sort of vow of secrecy or something? And, why didn't any of them produce offspring of their own in other enthusiast hands? Now Ardi Abate and Ken Kalisch did produce a few cbb parsonii years ago.

Like I wrote before, there isnt a single entry from her concering own CBs. She has breed many species, many for the first time but no parsoniis.

 

[bighutch917]

The problem is that parsoniis priced 500$ are in my opinion still too cheap, cause a parsonii cage costs way more ...
I know that Susan James has breed numerous species, but I didnt hear anything about your statement that she has had "extreme success" with breeding parsoniis. Chris told you the same so I guess I'm not that wrong

It seems as if I have some more prooves to my statements and a bit more knowledge about this business than you do so I dont care much if you dont like them

Your comments are asinine at best. How can you judge a person or their business practices without knowing them personally? Unlike yourself, I do not require the help of others to defend or co-sign my claims. Chris Anderson was not privy to any of my conversations with Susan James. Per your own comment ("I didn't hear anything about..."), you only speak from hearsay, I speak with facts. If you have an issue with Susan's claim, I suggest that you contact her to discuss / debate the matter further.

Honestly, it behooves me to see "forum junkies" such as yourself turn a positive thread into something so negative. I have been working with reptiles for over 25 years and I do not need "Senior Member" status or 2,874 posts to validate my experience as a herpticulturist.

It is knowitall members like yourself who do the chameleon community more harm than good.

 

[eisentrauti]

Your comments are asinine at best. How can you judge a person or their business practices without knowing them personally? Unlike yourself, I do not require the help of others to defend or co-sign my claims. Chris Anderson was not privy to any of my conversations with Susan James. Per your own comment ("I didn't hear anything about..."), you only speak from hearsay, I speak with facts. If you have an issue with Susan's claim, I suggest that you contact her to discuss / debate the matter further.

I still think that I'm quite good informed who has breed parsoniis and who not. I didnt see the point why she should have this success without talking to other persons (beside you). Are there any prooves of those juveniles / FACTS ?
Of course I can be complete beside it but Carlton and Chris are as well not known for beeing uninformed.

Honestly, it behooves me to see "forum junkies" such as yourself turn a positive thread into something so negative. I have been working with reptiles for over 25 years and I do not need "Senior Member" status or 2,874 posts to validate my experience as a herpticulturist.

It is knowitall members like yourself who do the chameleon community more harm than good.

I dont see where I put this thread into a negative one. You narrated stories about Susan having parsonii babies and nobody else has confirmed this. My senior member status is based on posts and reputation. What is your problem with it ?

Btw: It's maybe not the best to believe all the stories other people narrate.

 

[Carlton]

How can you judge a person or their business practices without knowing them personally?

you only speak from hearsay, I speak with facts.

Hold on a second. Everything read on the internet is a form of hearsay just as everyone's true identity, motivation, ethics, or whatever else someone chooses to expose on a web forum is. Remember, this does include you...for all I know you are Susan James. All we skeptics are saying is...no one else we know in the long term cham keeping community has heard anything about all this success and Susan is not known for keeping her expertise a secret. This kind of success would have been applauded, analyzed at length, welcomed, and most likely published or protected formally as intellectual property. I find it incredible that it went unnoticed even in the selective inner circle ADCHAM community.

And, BTW, I would have been thrilled to hear of her deserved success.

 

[SeanCJ]

I sure hope this turns out to be true and we get limited release. I've been waiting, and hoping, for this possibility for over 16 years now (since I sold my trio back in '96). That's a long time to wait.
It is a double edged sword though. As much as I have desperately wanted to get my hands on more specimens, I do believe that the species was likely saved by the ban back in '95 and would hate to see tens of thousands exported again only to have 99% of them die in the wrong hands.
I hope that the price remains sufficiently high per specimen. High enough to keep them out of most pets stores and therefore out of the hands of the eager 'tween' who fancies one and gets Mommy to buy it for him on a whim.
This news has me very excited! I've been planning/dreaming of a small fully equipped greenhouse, for a very long time and now have the space and means to build one, specifically for parsoni. I'd so very much love to try my hand at breeding them again. If this news turns out to be true, building will commense!
I agree with an earlier poster that said these animals "should not be purchased singly". I do believe we owe it to the species to buy unrelated pairs, or harems, and continue attempts at captive breeding.
I know that this species can be successfully raised, bred, and the eggs hatched, cause I've done it (back in 1996, documented with Ardi of the CIN. The pair went to Donovan Swafford down South, who had continued success with them and hatched out a fairly large percentage of eggs at least once. The other female went out West and I lost track of her).
We need more specimens in the right hands (diligent and caring hobbyists) to get it done.
I'll keep my eye on this thread, but could someone please let me know if they do indeed hear of the new release of parsoni? I would be very appreciative and certainly go in on any group orders.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

If these new quotas actually happen I hope the prices stay high, even if they are wild caught chameleons. This would absolute slow the import of bulk animals deals with the leftover animals that die just being seen as collateral damages. Instead this kind of importation would be seen as a painful economic importation loss.

I'm really intrigued that they are considering that their is going to be a distinction between wild caught and farm raised as captive bred imports. Which could be good for prospective breeders and people who are just looking for pets. As wild caught do not make good pets and WC should be saved for breeding.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Here's another link regarding this subject.

http://darwin.defra.gov.uk/documents/17010/21977/17-010 AR2 - edited.pdf

 

[Kent67]

http://www.cites.org/eng/notif/2012/E048.pdf

Check out #2, folks. It looks like the CITES Standing Committee has voted to withdraw its recommendation to suspend trade in Calumma brevicorne, C. gastrotaenia, C. nasutum, C. parsonii, Furcifer antimena, F. campani, and F. minor. We'll see how long it takes to enact the new quotas but I'm thinking we're going to start seeing these species again.