Male ambilobe chameleon keeps falling

[Male]

One up,
I have had my boy for about ten months now and it's been real stressful. He eat crickets when he was a baby and then completely stopped. I still offered them and Dubia roach but noticed loose crickets eating him near the eyes. So I stopped crickets all together few months ago. I also stopped dubias because the problems I have had with paypals. Now he been eating only superworms for while now tryed hornworms because there softer and wouldn't eat the two huge ones I stuck to mesh window screen. To quote to these day he will only eat superworms why I have no idea but he got to eat.
He was fine but today and few days ago been breathing fast I noticed in stomach area and stays in one place. If he moves he falls to bottom on floor. It's a zoomed reptibreeze 18"18"36" so it's a nice fall from the top 25" drop I assume. His basking temp is 86.2 and the others I don't know.
I been told so many different things for care that I provide reptisun 5.0 right size cage and basking white bulb. I also use a potho that he enjoys drinking the drips. I keep him hydrated very well. He gos nuts for a melting ice cube on top of cage that is a dripper I would say. I used little dripper but just gets everything wet. Yea thank you zoomed got my console all soaked.
I also got him a girlfriend next to his cage ambilobe female. That's smaller then him but when there both two years old I was going to breed them. But with the way my boys been looking don't think he will make it though the weekend.
To quote the female cant see him or he can't see her. She's doing very well growing slow but eating crickets very well I just limit crickets to her because she's getting bloated looking and eggs could be developing no signs yet. Have a laying box ready for her.
My greatly concern is my boy he's green blue red a lot of yellow. Wonderful a lot nicer handling then the female she makes you draw blood when handling very fast and mean.
His stool he left yesterday looked fine but urates were kind of pink colored. I cleaned it up already so it's on to the next when ever he poops again. He looks underweight not sure about bone disease but underweight yes. So who said superworms are fatty are full of beans lol.
That should be all any questions let me know glad to aweser them. Am just feeling like am going to have a heart attack honestly. Because when I got up today and was laying on the floor bottom my stomach or heart just dropped. Was fine Wednesday idk. I got attached and bonded with this sweetheart boy. Was the best chameleon ever hard to tell anyone completely. After him not making it to one year of age makes me feel like a poor or failed owner so getting another isn't a option. I took a photo of him tonite with my iPhone 5 just in case heaven opens the doors for him. Kinda corny but with how I feel it's like dropping to one knee.

 

[Male]

Had no idea on how to add a photo. But the one I took tonight it's there hope you all can see it. I thought heat would help him so I put him up there didn't wonder around like he used to. Sit there and fell asleep but has fallen just a few moments ago. Sleepless nite I can already say tonight.

 

[carol5208]

Have you been using calcium to dust your feeders with?. It might just be the picture but it looks like your chameleon has MBD(metabolic bone disease) in his right front limb from what I can see. That would explain why he might be falling if he cannot grip. And yes, supers are fatty. You cannot dispute nutritional facts as they are about 18 grams of fat a worm opposed to a cricket which is about 6 grams. It would be helpful if you can post some more pics of his limbs. Also what have you been gutloading your feeders with since you owned him?

 

[Male]

Oh yes I have learned to use repcal. I use calcium with d3 twice a month and every feeding without d3. I also use herpivite repcal twice a month. Does mesh block the reptisun 5 because he can get six inches away from it. Could be my absorb problem the fine mesh that zoomed uses. I don't gutload superworms just powder them because those are what he will only eat not 7/8 crickets that I have tryed. But gut loading crickets for the female. I use collard greens a flukers high calcium cricket diet. I add carrots and dog food pellets to the gut load also.

As for current photos of the right limbs I will post tomorrow. Because while he sleeps if you mess with him he gos nuts hiss and mouth opens with the pihanna like teeth. Let me check to see if I have a photo that looks current of the limbs.

 

[Male]

Here's another photo of him. Excuse me am not the best at this posting stuff. Did my best but if it could be fixed feel free to fix.

 

[carol5208]

It does look like MBD in his front limbs. They look very curvy. The third pic you posted you cannot really see the entire leg, but the second one...again his left leg looks cuvy like the right front one. It would not make sense though with the way you are keeping him as you are using calcium and uvb. Have you been using the calcium the whole entire time? You can gutload your supers just like your crickets. Dog food is not a suggested gutload as it contains too much protein. It is not good to just feed your chameleon supers. They contain alot of chitin and again are very fatty. I would back off on feeding him anything for a few days and try feeding the crickets again. Alot of people have trouble with chameleons going on hunger strikes for supers alone. I had that problem quite a ways back myself withone of mine. As far as the uvb getting blocked, most all of us use the UVB's on the screen above the cage. Yes, some of it gets blocked but not enough as this has been proven successful for years and years by members. I would still take some more pictures and try and zero in on the front legs. I hope I am wrong but it really does look like MBD although, it does not make sense that your chameleon should have developed it with being exposed to uvb and also getting calcium. Just to doublecheck here...you don't have any plastic in your fixture blocking the light do you?

 

[Male]

Thank you I uploaded the photos and some are not focused right with how they are on my phone. It could be mbd I can't say for sure or a underweight issue with the supers being a blamed.
I been using calcium since he was a baby and learned that not to use d3 everyday like I was but that was when he was small. This is the second reptisun I replaced in the ten month in my care.
The supers will eat the cricket diet? Gotcha I am actually replacing crickets tomorrow so no dog food.
For a while now I even tryed hornworms both colors blue and green. Left them in there for a day or two. Actually thought he was afraid of them. I will try crickets but its going to be a challenge and being underweight concerns me a lot.
No blockage it's a zoomed reptisun fixture forgive me I forgot the name of the fixture.
I'll take some new current photos of his upper legs. I really hope it isn't because it would be a first. I have had a lot of reptiles and never has happen. I know a lot more about bearded dragons then I do chameleons. The care is about the same just different tropical type temps and drippers and misting. I even have a iguana that mbd was a worry because iguanas don't need animal protein.
Well thank you again like I said sleepless night. Just worried about my boy. sleeping hopeing the water by mouth and liquid calcium with d3. The liquid multi vitamin concentrate I gave earlier will help. Won't eat just did beginning of the week. Breathing seems better

 

[Bunke]

I got the same problem as you do at the moment. My guy keeps falling, grabs himself which locks him in place and sometimes makes him fall. I've also been giving him good amount of UVB, calcium every feeding, d3 twice a month, vits twice a month. And this is still happening. I've been at the vet two times and they also say it dosen't make any sense. I wish I could give you some help, cause this is probably killing you to see him this way. All I do atm is to try give him liquid calcium, I inject it in the feeders. I've also been mixing it into the gutload to just make sure he get's alot of it during this time. This is killing me to see my guy this way, sometimes he got some good days and somedays are just awfull. I honestly don't know if he's gonna get any better, but I'm doing my best and keep belive that he will go back to normal.

Best wishes and good luck too you two, I hope he will get better

 

[carol5208]

In looking at your photo again today I am noticing his back right knee looks very swollen in the picture. Does he ever dangle his back legs down? It looks like he is dangling his back left in the first pic. Sometimes they will do this and that is ok when they are resting, but if it is a continual thing then there could be a problem. MBD will not cause swelling in the joints but gout will. Gout is a painful condition of a build up of uric acid crystals in the joints. The reason I am saying this is because I am going through this with my chameleon right now. I just got a diagnosis to confirm this this week and I was very shocked as I have done everything right with my chameleon. They say gout is caused by excessive protein in the diet. Now I know you said you were feeding dog food to crickets. The thing with me is my vet and I went over all my husbandry, diet, gutloading etc and he is baffled. If your chameleon has gotten mbd and you are doing all the right things, then it could be a some type of body chemistry where your chameleon is not processing d3. I saw it on here with someone else. Try and get some more pics up of all his legs. It looks like he might have two different things going on here unfortunately

 

[Male]

@bunke that really is a shame your having the same type of issue. Best of luck to you and yours. I hope this forum I posted has some help to you in some way also. Best regards

@carol5208 I took a few photos this morning very clear of the legs. No progress he still seems to be hanging from the branch. That's how I found him a hour ago just the two front paws hanging on the branch.
He does dangle the back legs but seems he is trying to move his legs there just not replying well. Very tipsy I have noticed. With using dog food I am sure he could have gout. I always feed crickets superworms dubia and hornworms for protein. I am not suppose to feed him any greens of any kind right. Gout scares me that it is painful. My dog has a disease in his eye that turned all white clear and had to be removed the eye ball I will say.
It's sad to hear your chameleon has a painful thing like gout. I really hope the best for your little guy. I know this type of thing happens to any pet. It just hurts the owner with you know your beloved pet is in pain.
His body chemistry makes sense. That you thought you were doing what you thought was right and didn't do any good. I have took a few photos I will get another up on here. It just isn't letting me upload more then one. I upload one then another and replaces the first one.
I hope this photo really helps you get a better eye on his legs.

 

[Male]

I took photos of both sides of him. So am not trying to flood this topic or forum. Just trying to get a good eye on him for everyone can see.

 

[carol5208]

hi there. I a sorry to say but yes for sure your chameleon has MBD. It is very frustrating when you do all the proper care and something like this happens. From what I know your chameleon cannot be cured of this and it is not reversable. A vet can administer injections of calcium to stop the progression. The thing is I don't know at this point, what will be beneficial for your chameleon as you have been giving him the necessary calcium and uvb and he still has gotten MBD. I think I would consult with a vet and tell him your situation. Alot of times with MBD, the bones will fracture and break and then heal and that is why their legs sometimes appear to have extra joints. They should only have that one bend at the elbow and it should kinda look like an L. I am not so sure about the gout, but his back legs don't quite look right at the ankle joint either. I am so sorry for you and your chameleon, cause he is a beautiful guy. My guy just turned 3 years old and it is quite a hard decision here on what I should do for his future. Good luck to you!

 

[Male]

I was afraid of that and thank you for catching it. As for the gout I have no idea. That's all the vet can do is injections. I understand he can't be treated for mbd. I am ashamed to hear this and upset over his situation. Thanks again with what I know came from a good family. Where there isn't a high number of yellow panthers in this country. But thank you again and sorry for your painful situation as well. I am going to have to figure what is best for him now. He isn't even one year old yet. But if he can't get to his lighting for overall health. Doesn't want to eat and feeling any pain at all. I am going to try and find a vet for exotic pets. To see what he can help me with. But if he can't do what normal chams can do then keeping him alive for myself isn't the way to go. I just want what's best for him. Right now he can't climb just holds on to stuff.
I layed a towel at the bottom and hold myself together. I got tears in my eyes just typing this. What happens now is going to be for his best. But am sure I will have to say my goodbye. It's just tough because I have had a lot of deaths recently just gets tougher adding on more.
I appreciate your advice and understanding I did my best to explain every detail I could. Photos are always the best way to go. I wish your guy the best regards.

 

[djfishygillz]

I was afraid of that and thank you for catching it. As for the gout I have no idea. That's all the vet can do is injections. I understand he can't be treated for mbd. I am ashamed to hear this and upset over his situation. Thanks again with what I know came from a good family. Where there isn't a high number of yellow panthers in this country. But thank you again and sorry for your painful situation as well. I am going to have to figure what is best for him now. He isn't even one year old yet. But if he can't get to his lighting for overall health. Doesn't want to eat and feeling any pain at all. I am going to try and find a vet for exotic pets. To see what he can help me with. But if he can't do what normal chams can do then keeping him alive for myself isn't the way to go. I just want what's best for him. Right now he can't climb just holds on to stuff.
I layed a towel at the bottom and hold myself together. I got tears in my eyes just typing this. What happens now is going to be for his best. But am sure I will have to say my goodbye. It's just tough because I have had a lot of deaths recently just gets tougher adding on more.
I appreciate your advice and understanding I did my best to explain every detail I could. Photos are always the best way to go. I wish your guy the best regards.

He can be treated for mbd. You need new, strong 10.0 uvb bulbs, you need to get on a heavy supplementing of calcium and calcium with d3. You also need to do as much research as possible on how to help chams with mbd. There is still hope! Don't give up! He isn't giving up on you so don't give up on him.

I really don't think there is a need to put him down by any means. Just work with him, slowly I think he can come back.

 

[djfishygillz]

It looks like your bulbs may have trouble penetrating that thick screen on the cage. I would recommend using a tub for him, with low branches so he doesn't have to climb high, where he can get direct light exposure and taking him outside whenever weather permits.

 

[carol5208]

I respect your decision and you seem to have a great heart and I feel terrible for you. If he will not eat, it may be that he cannot shoot his tongue. Mbd can cause that also. It might be that he wants to eat but cannot. Have you tried putting food right up to his mouth and seeing if he takes it that way? When is the last time he ate? I kinda agree and if he cannot move around anymore, it may be the humane thing to do by letting him go. Remarkably my chameleon still gets around and crawls and eats although I cannot imagine that he is not in some pain with his knee being the way it is. I am getting with my vet on Monday about pain management but I am taking the risk of having his kidneys shut down by doing that I guess. A double edge sword you know... My chams live outdoor most of the day and they get beautiful natural sunshine. I feed them well, gutload with good ingredients, supplement like I should, keep them well hydrated....so I am not going to blame myself for what has happened to my chameleon. Something is not right with his kidneys and I am not sure what is the cause. Well, whatever you decide to do, I know it will be the right thing for your chameleon. He is in good hands...

 

[carol5208]

He can be treated for mbd. You need new, strong 10.0 uvb bulbs, you need to get on a heavy supplementing of calcium and calcium with d3. You also need to do as much research as possible on how to help chams with mbd. There is still hope! Don't give up! He isn't giving up on you so don't give up on him.

I really don't think there is a need to put him down by any means. Just work with him, slowly I think he can come back.

I agree with this, but if he did everything possible that was right to begin with and he still got mbd, maybe there is something else going on. I am all for saving him and going the extra mile but maybe it will not matter. Under normal circumstances I know people who keep their chams alive that have mbd.

 

[carol5208]

It looks like your bulbs may have trouble penetrating that thick screen on the cage. I would recommend using a tub for him, with low branches so he doesn't have to climb high, where he can get direct light exposure and taking him outside whenever weather permits.

but there are so many members who use the reptibreeze with the same set up with the bulbs on top of the screen that do not have this problem. I am not so sure about this.

 

[Male]

I have spoke with a vet and couldn't get him in today. I told them my problem and mentioned he should be looked at before make a choice. They ever asked me how I new he had mbd mentioned forum. It's weird every place I called couldn't see him til Tuesday.
I am not so sure with the condition he's in now that reptisun 10 and liquid calcium that I been using. Is going to help if a vet has to give him calcium so it doesn't progress. I know he hasn't gave up on me but his welfare is what matters. What he can do and feels from today and on. It's tough for me to be outside water is frozen very cold and windy. So the sun can't help him but I have took him outside when it was warm and misted him with refreshing water. Was nice at the time to see him crawling around in a Japanese maple tree.
@carol5208 thank you for respecting my doings and thoughts. I actually put a cricket by his mouth and a superworm wouldn't even open his mouth like he does. It's been about 4 days since he eat and I seen him use his tougue. I actually do blame myself with a lot of things I done that may pushed him to this point. They hide sickness really well and like now its really to late. But I do blame myself everything I done was for his best welfare. Can't say anymore then that true feelings.
Well I understand your next vet visit taking away pain then replacing it with a risk. It's ashame but everything happens for a reason. I will send prays your way for your little trooper. Thank you and I will make best choice for him.
Am not blameing the fine mesh cage. I had a thought when I was putting the cage together to not add the top. To add topper screen that has bigger holes. I went with advice given that the mesh is fine but use a reptisun 10 while he was a baby. Then to replace it as I did with the reptisun 5.
I just have to make the right choice for him and quit blaming myself with things like mesh and superworms because that would the only thing I found he would eat. He was a great pet and had some good times while the weather stayed warm. Am sure he's suffering because he barely moves with pain. I have to end his suffering. Because at this point treatment is going to be tough for him. Don't believe with what I see he can get better. All I can say now but if I could take his pain and add it on me would be done already. If I could provide what his body needs right now to be that boy I once new. I would of have gave it already.
It may sound funny to others but its just the type of man I am have a lot of heart for the ones I love. I would go as many miles as it would take it get him back the way he was. But am a adult and have to face the life facts and do what I don't want to. Handing over my pet to a vet and then moments later gone with whatever they do to end his suffering.
I'll be honest am afraid and afraid that something like this could happen to the female. I attached a photo of her she's a bit small but doing very well.

 

[carol5208]

your females limbs look good. I still don't think the screen had anything to do with it cause it would be happening to all the other people who use the Reptibreeze cages then. Most of them use 5.0's too and their chameleons are not turning up with MBD. I just am finding that hard to believe. I remember another chameleon on here that got MBD and the member did everything by the book. There has to be weird instances where for whatever reason a chameleon cannot process the d3 to absorb the calcium. I certainly would not blame yourself as you sound like you could be one of these people. Like I said, consult with your vet, tell him everything you have done from day one and then make your decision based on the quality of life your chameleon has.