Male dead, female fading? Please advise...

RandomUser

New Member
Brief Chameleon Back Story:

A month ago I had to make a long distance interstate move via driving with my two little pals, a male and female veiled, housed in two separate boxes on my lap (I was not driving). I stayed overnight at a hotel and in the morning, let them come out to bask in the glory of a super humidified bathroom/sauna before putting them back in the box. Of course, neither wanted to eat nor drink. That's when I noticed an almost infinitesimal smear of blood in the male's box.

Within two weeks of the final location and a lot of free range and sunlight, he had stopped eating and despite forced feeding, Rept-aid, and forced watering, he went to sleep and I found him on the floor in the morning, dead with a slight bloody cloaca. He seemed to have a hard swollen area the night before he died, almost like where I assume their kidneys would be, just above the back legs. He also was sitting with his mouth open, as though he were hot although in a cool area. No bubbles, no signs of respiratory distress.

The female a month and a week later, once a former endless eater, has stopped eating entirely as well. Now it's to the point where she is napping randomly throughout the day, after pacing endlessly for about a week, until yesterday, and she also has that same swollen area above her back legs...but she has been showing gravid colors for about two weeks, but is losing a tremendous amount of weight and honestly doesn't appear egg-bound. She has a dirt tray in with her just in case.

Chameleon Info:

Your Chameleon - Chameleon calyptratus, female, assuming about a year old, been in my care about 8 months.
Handling - I leave her alone. Quite frankly, they were mishandled before I got them and were nightmares...but they're still little sweeties..or were, she is...you know. :{
Feeding - She used to eat crickets every other day, maybe half a dozen, calcium dusted, multivitamin about once a week, I'd also offer mealies, waxies, flies, etc and she never hesitated. Gutloaded on fruits, veges, greens, and Flukers High Calcium Cricket Diet something in my gut says this stuff is off
Supplements - Rep-Cal Calcium Supplement, ExoTerra MultiVitamin
Watering - Dripper, Daily
Fecal Description - Never tested for parasites. Normal Poo but now there is just the white creamy excrement, no black as she has no food intake to make...output.

Cage Info:

Cage Type - Was Free Range, thought maybe that was the cause of death, put her into a 18x18x20 with occasional roams around the room
Lighting - ExoTerra SolarGlo + Natural Sunlight @ window
Temperature - Avg temps 68-73
Humidity - avg 30%
Plants - Live plants in cage pothos + romping area are several monstrous Monstera deliciosa
Placement - In front of window, chest height, moderate to low traffic
Location - Wisconsin

Any advice would be great...also a round about figure if I needed to take her to the vet. If I'd known I was going to have a car accident that left me with a back surgery, two hip surgeries, several other procedures, a lost job, and a totaled car, I never would have gotten them as its irresponsible to have a pet and not be able to afford medical bills...can't even pay mine...but as silly as it sounds, they were my grumpy little rays of sunshine that helped me through it. :) Even with everything else I've lost, I'd almost be willing to give her to a better home if it meant her living if it's the only recourse. I know they pick up on stress and are intelligent little critters so I always maintain calm and try to be happy despite when I am up and around as to not give off bad vibes/energy/whatever.

Thanks for anything in advance.
 
Those temperatures are completely wrong, same as humidity. You need 89 degrees, and 80% humidity! Remember if you temperatures are 75 F, she is too! The window doesn't help anything. You need a basking or heat bulb! An adult should have a larger cage, 48 in tall, 24 wide and long. The Flukers diet is OK, but it isn't very high in vitamins (Repashy Superload or Bug Burger are great commercial gutloads). The multivitamin once a week is a BIG problem (might have been your males death because of a vitamin overdose) It should be given once a month, along with a calcium w/out D3 every feeding and a calcium w/ D3 every month. Ficus is a great plant because it has small leaves and is very sturdy. Get your chameleon to a vet before it is too late. What are you feeding them? No handling isn't going to make them like you any more. Try it for a little bit. MAKE SURE THAT POTHOS IS A NON-TOXIC TYPE OF PHILDENDRON! Some philodendrons are very toxic to chameleons and very similar to the good types of pothos, which caused the death of my first chameleon. Take some pictures of the cage and her. Good Luck, RandomUser! Drago.
 
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Never put your chameleon in a window in wisconsin. The cold bleeds through the window... your temps were probably a major issue


But that aside. I'm sorry for your loss
 
Those temperatures are completely wrong, same as humidity. You need 89 degrees, and 80% humidity! Remember if you temperatures are 75 F, she is too! The window doesn't help anything. You need a basking or heat bulb! An adult should have a larger cage, 48 in tall, 24 wide and long. The Flukers diet is OK, but it isn't very high in vitamins (Repashy Superload or Bug Burger are great commercial gutloads). The multivitamin once a week is a BIG problem (might have been your males death because of a vitamin overdose) It should be given once a month, along with a calcium w/out D3 every feeding and a calcium w/ D3 every month. Ficus is a great plant because it has small leaves and is very sturdy. Get your chameleon to a vet before it is too late. What are you feeding them? No handling isn't going to make them like you any more. Try it for a little bit. MAKE SURE THAT POTHOS IS A NON-TOXIC TYPE OF PHILDENDRON! Some philodendrons are very toxic to chameleons and very similar to the good types of pothos, which caused the death of my first chameleon. Take some pictures of the cage and her. Good Luck, RandomUser! Drago.

Some of the info you have given the OP is incorrect. The SolarGlo to my knowledge is a combo mercury heat(UVA) and UV bulb. 89 degrees as a basking temp would be ok, but not for the whole enclosure. Mid 70's is fine. So if she is 75 that is ok as long as she has a basking area to get warmer. You need to clarify these things. 80% humidity is actually high as a constant. Too humid of conditions can cause mold and bacteria to breed. It would be fine to have it spike at that after misiting and then come down later maybe to around 50%. But yes, 30% is very low. The suggested supplement schedule is twice monthly for a multivitamin. I highly doubt that giving it two more times contributed to their illnesses. Suggesting that it caused their death is wrong in my opinion. I know you are trying to help, but make sure you are giving out the correct information and be more specific about what you are saying. To the OP, when you say your temp was 73 did you mean the ambient or the area under the light? Have you have changed out your bulbs since getting your chameleons??
 
So sorry for your loss and we're pulling for your female.

For medical costs, our vet recommended CareCredit (think the website is CareCredit.com). Easy to apply, got the account number immediately and was able to pay for our male veiled's emergency surgery without worry. Our vet offered 18 months, no finance charge, but I think each facility chooses their own repayment terms. I have no experience with the card or the company other than that, though.

I'm not a fan of credit, but it was a lifesaver (literally) for us. Best of luck and keep us posted.
 
I'm not very good at explaining details. That's what I meant as temperature. For humidity, I spray to 80% and it goes down to about 50%. Thank you, Carol for correcting me.
 
I'm not very good at explaining details. That's what I meant as temperature. For humidity, I spray to 80% and it goes down to about 50%. Thank you, Carol for correcting me.

I think it is wonderful that you are taking the time to help others. You just have to more specific like I said. Otherwise, it appears you are giving the wrong info and that could be harmful for the chameleon if the advice is followed.
 
Thanks everyone for the replies and mild scolding. :p Ok so let's talk more details. Hold on to your butts.

Seeing as I am seemingly completely at fault then for the male's death :(, I am going to attend to this matter today...with assistance...somehow. ... I must say that being a crippled up young woman does have it's perks when in need of help...:p But can anyone account for the bloody stool/cloaca? 'Sup with that? Could the mild weather have directly attributed to this and his demise?

I agree with comments regarding heat. The normal environmental temp is around 72-75ish, with her basking area being 88-90 degrees. Is this not, passing?

The reason being for keeping them in the 70's was due to reading a rather outdated book, The New Chameleon Handbook which said, not verbatim, that in the 70's was fine when used in combination with a basking area. Even at the time of reading it, I felt that this was too cool for them but who am I to question someone who's been doing this since before I was even a twinkle in my parent's eye?! That's what you guys can do... :B nyerk, nyerk, nyerk

I had her in a 24x24x48 enclosure before and she never used but the upper portion. NEVER the lower half, except when she laid a clutch of eggs. This is why I made a new cage 18x18x20. Perhaps she is a bit spoiled after that, and then free range, that a smaller habitat is just stressing her out? After living in NYC apartments though, I can understand... I propose, taking the "monkey cage" and turning it lengthwise, providing her a long run of a cage that perhaps she will actually use in this orientation? What ya'll think?

...But I see these breeder setups, and is like, shelving for chameleons...almost shoeboxes. I always thought it miserable looking but it works there but this setup doesn't work here?

The lighting though, aside from the possible draft coming in from the window, isn't it enough for a cham's requirements? The light is the NEW Solar Glow from exoterra, providing almost 15000LUX, almost 90* temperature, 4000K, and a complete proper balance of both UVA and UVB, as per the ExoTerra website. She also get's a full day of natural sunlight through the window.

Pothos? Toxic? Which? It is on the safe list of plants in the forums here? And she hasn't nibbled on them, even once. In fact, in the free roam, there weren't any toxic plants available to even eat as they were all on the chameleon approved list, as per this forum, as well. Do they...outgas? Goo? Or something and get absorbed through the chammis feet? No question is a dumb question, eh?

Just throwing it all out there...

Suzapalooza! Thank you for the suggestion, I will look into this today as well.
 
I addition to the above, I tried offering her dusted crickets in her chinese food takeout container (it just...works for her). She looked at the container, walked down halfway inside of it, looked, and then walked away. Seemingly interested but perhaps a last minute change of heart?

Now she is just sitting like a little blob in her basking spot, eyes closed almost all the time. :( Am I too late...is this normal to sit in the spot and take a nap and I am just...not used to seeing her do this?
 
Take her to a vet. Pothos is a species of philodendron. Some philodendron can be toxic. The vet can give you antibiotics and that's the only way you can really try. Do a fecal test. Just to make sure. Better than waiting for the best.
 
Uvb doesnt go thru glass

I am aware. Hence the light I am using. The SolarGlow.

Hey I have an idea. Instead of everyone bickering about who knows more of the right information, let's stay on topic?

FYI, since we're sharing brain pans here, philodendron is not the proper name for it. Philodendrons are a different species entirely. UNFORTUNATELY, there are CONFLICTING safe plant lists on many websites, including this one.

One site says its toxic, another not, Joe says it isn't, and Jane that copied his list to paste on her website, says it isn't too without doing the research, and Billy the Blind Follower goes around tooting his horn that he knows everything, and griping at those who say anything different than what he says.

Golden Pothos is toxic if if if ingested due to needle-shaped crystals of an oxalate created as a biproduct of the breakdown and detoxification of calcium within the plant, better known as insoluble raphides.

Drop the plant stuff. Drop the persecution of who knows more and let's focus here.

I came here for the forums collective expertise and WISDOM gained from experiences, not to measure egos of who knows more.

Facts:
Chameleon One, Died after blood was seen in stool, stopped eating. NO INGESTION OF PLANTS OCCURRED.

Chameleon Two, Sleeping, not eating, no blood seen in stool, NO INGESTION OF PLANTS OCCURRED, she just threw up some sort of small amount of pink substance that looked like smooth muscle tissue.

I will be happy and surprised to get any kind of healthy response but I at least will come back to the forum once I have solid evidence to supply the "winning" hypothesis from the smartest bloke here so others are helped in the future.

Happy Easter, Fertility Day, random sunday, etc.
 
Blood in the stool can be from a lot of things. I'm no vet.

Parasites: Some parasites like hook worms will cause frank blood in the stool.

Diarrhea: Severe diarrhea will cause so much inflammation, that there will be a bloody discharge usually accompanied by a lot of mucus.

Damage to the GI tract from something something physical such as something sharp ingested or from something like an ulcer, which I haven't a clue if chameleons get.

Infection: An infection, say to some structure in the cloaca, could bleed especially after defecation.

I would think severe constipation could cause rupture to blood vessels.

Since you have lost one chameleon and have a second sick one, I would be leaning towards some sort of infectious agent or parasite.

It all depends on how much you want to save your remaining chameleon. If you do, you get her to a vet. Not too many here on this forum are vets and diagnosing a medical emergency such as the one you are describing just can't be done over the internet. Egg binding, yes, but not something as you are describing.

Were these wild caught specimens?
 
I've not weighed in, so many others tossing salads and flipping tables.


When tracking down a problem you look for the commonalities since you have two animals and both appear to have the same issue. It is in those commonalities that the problem will be found.


I would lean towards parasites. However there is no information available as to if these were wild caught, if they could have been even exposed to parasites at some point in their keeping, or if they have been given a dewormer in the past. That information would be the first thing to track down.

Next is they ingested something. Only the keeper can determine that, my only purpose here to simply state that so he might think on it more. Any chance they got a dose of an insecticide at the same time? Hotels use a lot of different things to clean the bathrooms. I'm known for thinking outside the box.

Lastly, regardless of the cause which is very important to decipher, once an animal has some blood in the stool a vet should be contacted. I saw your post concerning your financial issues, but I'm just being complete in my post. Good luck, never give up. I have a Male Quad who came done with a bone infection back in March of 2014. He's still alive despite still having the infection for a year.
 
Sorry if it bothers you but if someone posts incorrect information on the forum and I see it I will continue to correct it. I don't care if you don't want to hear it...it may help someone else on the forum not to have a problem because of the wrong information being left uncorrected. If you think the information is not necessary then just ignore it and follow the information that someone might post that you do feel is worthwhile.
 
Sorry if it bothers you but if someone posts incorrect information on the forum and I see it I will continue to correct it. I don't care if you don't want to hear it...it may help someone else on the forum not to have a problem because of the wrong information being left uncorrected. If you think the information is not necessary then just ignore it and follow the information that someone might post that you do feel is worthwhile.

I agree wholeheartedly with you, Kinyonga. Threads aren't just read by the original poster.
 
Exactly...if things are left uncorrected someone (else) may read it and think its right.

My comments are not in regards to this particular thread, but to threads in general. I have found that sometimes the original poster feels insulted and patronized because a comment will be thorough and written for everyone, all the way from the member who just walked into PetSmart and without a lot of research bought their first chameleon all the way to the original poster. Unfortunately sometimes the original poster feels patronized when the responder was just being thorough, making sure complete and accurate information is posted. I really appreciate when someone is very thorough in their responses, not just answering the question but going into detail of why they arrived at their answer.
 
Got it.

Chameleon died at the vet.

Vet blamed a virus.

Upon examining the dead body when I got home, it looked as if while administering the de-worming medication orally, they seemingly busted her lip/jaw. For all I know, the way they handled her did it as she was bright eyed and bushy-tailed when I left her there.

To hell with this.
 
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