elizaann2
Chameleon Enthusiast
That was a typo. Thanks! It would NOT hurt to get a copy of your x-rays... just to clarify.
Male Veiled 7 months old might die
- Thread starter justanotherchamowner
- Start date
dinomom
Chameleon Enthusiast
You can absolutely ask for your records to be forwarded to the second opinion vet, they must comply and it is perfectly fine.
Bloodwork is very important, I know that the kidneys are in that area so they would want to check organ function for that and liver. Then you have the opportunity to get on the right meds.
We are pulling for you both!
MissSkittles
Chameleon Enthusiast
Give me a bit and I’ll go thru your husbandry.
justanotherchamowner
Member
How much have any of you paid for a blood panel for your chameleons? I'm just curious. I'm super low on money and have called around and only my current vet can give me a number. Vet isn't in until tomorrow but full panels for a chameleon is about 350.
elizaann2
Chameleon Enthusiast
I think mine was 300 as well plus what the cost of the visit was. These guys are expensive thats for sure. Some vets accept a payment plan or could lead you to some kind of pet related credit line. That might be an option?
Gloriawood
Chameleon Enthusiast
I don’t know if you have care credit, but my vet accepts it.
MissSkittles
Chameleon Enthusiast
I tend to talk a lot, so am breaking this into two sections.
- Your Chameleon - Veiled, Male, 8-9 months. Since Jan. 1st So he was exceptionally young when you got him. Most breeders won’t send off their babies until at least 3-4 months old. A lot can happen for no reason and babies are fragile. Where did you get him from?
- Handling - I don't very often if at all. He has quite the additude and doesn't like to be bothered. I mainly enjoy sitting on my couch and watching him for sometimes hours. I find him fascinating. He is fascinating!
It is important to work on building some trust with him though. There’s a great blog on how to do that here. https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/building-trust-with-your-chameleon.2396/ My veileds learned that I could be trusted somewhat, but they still didn’t want anything to do with me if they could help it.
- Feeding - Dubias, crickets, snacks are hornworms, superworms. Prefers about 7-8 large crickets a day, A few Dubias here and there on top of that. He doesn't like them as much as crickets. 3 hornworms a week, and maybe 2 superworms a week. I feed him every morning. Very good variety. Do you ever give bsfl or silkworms? Those are great additions to rotate into your feeding. How much did you feed him when you first got him? The reason I don't feed him again in the afternoon is he doesn't run over to his feeder and eat a ton then eat again later. He’s many months beyond needing to be fed twice a day and you don’t want him to get obese. He is still growing, so the amount you’re giving is good for now. Once he reaches about 11-12 months or so, you’ll need to be having him cut back to 3-4 feeders either every other day or 3 days a week. And yes, I’m counting on him surviving his current issue. I like to reduce diets slowly so they have time to adjust. He eats throughout the day at his leisure and likes to hunt the escaped crickets. There is always extra food and always a number of crickets running around the enclosure but he does eat the amount in a day that I said. That I don’t really like. Escaped crickets can and will bite him while he’s asleep if you don’t leave them something to eat. You can put a small piece of carrot on the bottom or in a plant pot for them.
- Supplements - Exo-tera calcium NO D3 every other day. The entirety of his food is dusted every other day. See feeding schedule above. Reptivite Multivitamin W/D3 2 x a month. I just switched about a month ago to Miner-All with D3 instead of the high phosphorus Reptivite. This is a problem, if not the problem. You should be lightly dusting at every feeding with a phosphorus for calcium without D3, except when using another supplement. I like and have used the ReptiVite with D3 for a couple of years with no issues. As @kinyonga pointed out, the calcium to phosphorus ratio is 2:1, so 2 parts calcium per 1 part phosphorus. If you still have any reservations about ReptiVite, try Repashy calcium plus LoD. These two supplements have preformed vitamin A, which is better absorbed than most other supplements which have proformed A. This one you would want to use lightly dusted on one feeding every other week.
- Gut Loading - I gut load my insects with orange slices and shredded carrots mainly or whatever I have laying around. * using red since you used bold. Gutloading is just as important as supplements but often overlooked or minimized as they’re only bugs that are going to be fed to our chameleon. We need to take good care of our bugs though so they are healthy and therefore, more nutritious. Since getting bearded dragons who can’t have citrus, I have taken all citrus out of my gutloading. I’m not sure if it affects chams - no info that it does. However, you do need to watch other foods that you are giving. Many greens are very high in oxalates which bind to calcium - spinach is definitely one to avoid and imho kale is to be avoided too. Attaching graphic for you. I just feed my bugs the same foods that I give my beardies - dandelion, turnip and mustard greens, collards, infrequent chard, watercress, arugula, various squashes, carrot, sweet potato, bell pepper and just a small amount of whatever fruit I have on hand like raspberry, blueberry, banana or apple. To round things out I also add a small amount of Repashy Bug Burger that I’ve added a pinch each of bee pollen and spirulina.
- Watering - sparkly clear whisky glass filled to brim with water changed daily. Ok, so you started on Reddit I’m guessing.
We respectfully disagree with this water glass method, but I’ll just tell you to do you here. Just MAKE CERTAIN to keep it clean! We all have our own ways. It is high up in his enclosure in a potted plant with a very large vine going next to it to perch on where light shines off it. Not under his basking area. I started with a misting system plus a drinking glass. He literally took to the glass within 2 days and literally hides and hated the mister hiding every time it went off, not even getting used to it after almost 4 straight months. Odd. Mine stand in the mister like it doesn’t bother them and will occasionally just move away when it does. He drinks from it all the time and has never showed signs of dehydration (no sunken eyes) and stool is brown/white/ and perfectly clear. I know majority of people in this forum think the shot/whisky glass is crazy but he stays hydrated this way and is his preferred way of getting water even with the mister. He developed an eye/respiratory infection at 4 to 5months and I removed the mister and haven't had eye issues since and no dehydration issues either. To me it makes since because unless you somehow cleaned the tubing of the misting system probably like 3 times a week and sanitized it, it would have a lot of bacteria growing in it. No, not with good practices and a quality system like a Mist King. I won’t tell you to get rid of your whiskey glass but I want you to try misting twice a day (right before lights on and off) just the plant leaves around him until they are dripping. You may also want to add a dripper for about 20 minutes a day. The more opportunity you can provide for hydration, the better. Yes, I understand there is bacteria everywhere in the wild, but outside there is definitely a sort of homeostasis with different micro-organisms anywhere outside on planet.
MissSkittles
Chameleon Enthusiast
Will get back to the rest of your husbandry. I’m in Florida and saw two different exotics vets in Orlando. Vet #1) office visit $60, blood work $200, x ray 1 view $125
Vet #2) office visit $75, blood work $160
Each vet used a different lab and I don’t know if that’s what effected price or not. Once you get your boy past this…and you will!…look into getting some pet insurance for him.
justanotherchamowner
Member
Thank you!! I really appreciate all the responses. I can go back to the mister twice a day. Yes I clean his cup daily or rotate it daily with a clean one. When I hand clean it I use a splash of cleaning vinegar and rinse aggressively with water to make sure there is none left. Is cleaning vinegar a safe disinfectant? I was under the impression it was and I do use it 2 times a week very diluted in water to also clean the bottom of the enclosure and spot clean any feces that landed somewhere.I tend to talk a lot, so am breaking this into two sections.
- Your Chameleon - Veiled, Male, 8-9 months. Since Jan. 1st So he was exceptionally young when you got him. Most breeders won’t send off their babies until at least 3-4 months old. A lot can happen for no reason and babies are fragile. Where did you get him from?
- Handling - I don't very often if at all. He has quite the additude and doesn't like to be bothered. I mainly enjoy sitting on my couch and watching him for sometimes hours. I find him fascinating. He is fascinating!
- Feeding - Dubias, crickets, snacks are hornworms, superworms. Prefers about 7-8 large crickets a day, A few Dubias here and there on top of that. He doesn't like them as much as crickets. 3 hornworms a week, and maybe 2 superworms a week. I feed him every morning. Very good variety. Do you ever give bsfl or silkworms? Those are great additions to rotate into your feeding. How much did you feed him when you first got him? The reason I don't feed him again in the afternoon is he doesn't run over to his feeder and eat a ton then eat again later. He’s many months beyond needing to be fed twice a day and you don’t want him to get obese. He is still growing, so the amount you’re giving is good for now. Once he reaches about 11-12 months or so, you’ll need to be having him cut back to 3-4 feeders either every other day or 3 days a week. And yes, I’m counting on him surviving his current issue. I like to reduce diets slowly so they have time to adjust. He eats throughout the day at his leisure and likes to hunt the escaped crickets. There is always extra food and always a number of crickets running around the enclosure but he does eat the amount in a day that I said. That I don’t really like. Escaped crickets can and will bite him while he’s asleep if you don’t leave them something to eat. You can put a small piece of carrot on the bottom or in a plant pot for them.
View attachment 341606View attachment 341607
- Supplements - Exo-tera calcium NO D3 every other day. The entirety of his food is dusted every other day. See feeding schedule above. Reptivite Multivitamin W/D3 2 x a month. I just switched about a month ago to Miner-All with D3 instead of the high phosphorus Reptivite. This is a problem, if not the problem. You should be lightly dusting at every feeding with a phosphorus for calcium without D3, except when using another supplement. I like and have used the ReptiVite with D3 for a couple of years with no issues. As @kinyonga pointed out, the calcium to phosphorus ratio is 2:1, so 2 parts calcium per 1 part phosphorus. If you still have any reservations about ReptiVite, try Repashy calcium plus LoD. These two supplements have preformed vitamin A, which is better absorbed than most other supplements which have proformed A. This one you would want to use lightly dusted on one feeding every other week.
- Gut Loading - I gut load my insects with orange slices and shredded carrots mainly or whatever I have laying around. * using red since you used bold. Gutloading is just as important as supplements but often overlooked or minimized as they’re only bugs that are going to be fed to our chameleon. We need to take good care of our bugs though so they are healthy and therefore, more nutritious. Since getting bearded dragons who can’t have citrus, I have taken all citrus out of my gutloading. I’m not sure if it affects chams - no info that it does. However, you do need to watch other foods that you are giving. Many greens are very high in oxalates which bind to calcium - spinach is definitely one to avoid and imho kale is to be avoided too. Attaching graphic for you. I just feed my bugs the same foods that I give my beardies - dandelion, turnip and mustard greens, collards, infrequent chard, watercress, arugula, various squashes, carrot, sweet potato, bell pepper and just a small amount of whatever fruit I have on hand like raspberry, blueberry, banana or apple. To round things out I also add a small amount of Repashy Bug Burger that I’ve added a pinch each of bee pollen and spirulina.
- Watering - sparkly clear whisky glass filled to brim with water changed daily. Ok, so you started on Reddit I’m guessing.
justanotherchamowner
Member
Yes, the visit is 85 dollars, x-rays are close to 100. I'm also near Chicago. 1hr to 1.5 away. It could just be this area as well.
MissSkittles
Chameleon Enthusiast
I split it wrong - whatever. 
Fecal Description - Stool Brown / Urates bright White , liquid completely clear. Has has never been checked for parasites and I now realize I should have done it when I first got him. When he started pooping again a few days ago the stuff that came out was like a glob of mucus both times. I saved one in a test tube and it's in my fridge. In order to have a good fecal test done, the poo needs to be fresh within 24 hours. He hadn't eatin much because of how sick he was so no brown poop yet, but he was passing clear liquid, white urates and mucus/jello like substance in a big glob. I imagine this could be from the lactulose he is on but I'm not really sure. So he hasn’t passed a true poo yet? Can you post a pic the next time he goes? Is he eating on his own right now?
Cage Info:
Is there any chance that he could have perhaps eaten a wild hornworm? Are there any tomato plants in the yard? Just trying to look at everything.
Fecal Description - Stool Brown / Urates bright White , liquid completely clear. Has has never been checked for parasites and I now realize I should have done it when I first got him. When he started pooping again a few days ago the stuff that came out was like a glob of mucus both times. I saved one in a test tube and it's in my fridge. In order to have a good fecal test done, the poo needs to be fresh within 24 hours. He hadn't eatin much because of how sick he was so no brown poop yet, but he was passing clear liquid, white urates and mucus/jello like substance in a big glob. I imagine this could be from the lactulose he is on but I'm not really sure. So he hasn’t passed a true poo yet? Can you post a pic the next time he goes? Is he eating on his own right now?
- History - Respiratory infection in Sinus which spread to eye at 4 to 5 months. He was taken to the exotic vet right away and it was cleared up using antibiotic/steroid drops. 2 x daily 7 days. He fell when he got away from me on the last day so fast (he's not the nicest) and slipped. Landed on his side from 2 feet. I was concerned but he got right back up immediately and climbed back to the top. He seemed 100 percent fine and was acting normal eating, drinking and his lively normal self. I noticed bumps on his ribs on that side about 2 months later. I took him to the vet 1.5 months ago to check on them and he confirmed the fractured but healed or close to 100 percent healed and he was in excellent health even growing 40 percent bigger in under 3 months. Chameleons when feeling threatened and with no other option will throw themselves down to the ground as a last ditch escape attempt.
Cage Info:
- Cage Type - 1 indoor reptibreeze XL 4x2x2. 1-new outdoor reptibreeze XL 4x2x2 Excellent.
- Lighting - Started with ReptiSun T5 5%. When he got a sinus infection I turned off the T5 before I got to the Vet and bought a T8 5%. This was before I confirmed the infection and wanted to make sure it wasn't a T5 to close and hurting his eyes. Heat is an old school frosted incandescent bulb. 75w. We already covered the uvb - go back to the T5 5.0.
- Temperature - Basking is a max of 84 degrees at its hottest point. What is the distance between uvb light and his basking branch? It should be about 8-9” with the T5 5.0. About 1 inch of his basking area. The rest of the basking area ranges from 81 to 83. Temps are taken with a digital laser gun. Floor is about the same as my house around 70 -72 degrees. Night time temps drop in the house to 66 degrees. His lights are on a timer and are 12 on 12 off. 630 to 630. Temps are great!
- Humidity - humidity levels in the winter are around 50 percent and a little higher in the summer. He has no problems with shedding at all. First vet visit he couldn't find a single spec of stuck shed anywhere on his body. 50% is on the high side for veileds. Ideal range for daytime is between 30-50%. Having excellent ventilation is key if having trouble keeping humidity low enough. High heat + high humidity + stagnant air is a recipe for a definite respiratory infection.
- Plants - 90 percent live plants. I purchased them from a chameleon safe plant list on Reddit. I have a number of them. 2 Photos, money tee, 1 -swiss pothos, a fern, and there is one brightly colored plant that was on the list but I honestly don't remember the name of it. If you post a pic we maybe could tell you what it is. I'm planning on removing the last 3 very small fake plants. YES! The big problem with fake plants and veileds is they like to nibble their plants and don’t know enough to recognize that the plant is fake and not edible. It only takes one nibble and a bowel obstruction can occur. I’m really praying that your guy doesn’t have any obstruction/impaction. If he does have one and can’t pass it on his own, I believe he would need surgery which is probably risky and expensive. I left them as a slight filler for when he really wants to hide somewhere and get away but they are not needed. I think many of us started with fake ones. I have mine hung on the outside door of my enclosures to give my chams a sense of more privacy.
Is there any chance that he could have perhaps eaten a wild hornworm? Are there any tomato plants in the yard? Just trying to look at everything. - Placement - In the living room next to a large door window. Yes it's higher traffic but we also have a small family of 3 of us. There is literally no where else I can keep him in my house and I'm definitely not sticking him in my basement. I leave him alone and observe him for hours sometimes from the couch. He loves to spend some time gazing through the very large window. They have natural curiosity and enjoy having views. Lots of natural sunlight all day. I know the glass blocks the beneficial part of uv but it keeps everything lit up nicely in his enclosure all day long. Just be careful of the greenhouse effect and the sun coming in and overheating him.
- Location - Midwest
MissSkittles
Chameleon Enthusiast
You can use just a hand spray bottle for better accuracy of aiming for just the plants. What misting system do you have?
Yes, vinegar is a safe cleaner. Just rinse very well to eliminate the taste.
I did see his prominent tarsal spurs in one of your pics, but his growth is stunted and his casque is small like a females. Even if he had mbd all of his life, usually that doesn’t stunt the casque growth but instead it gets pulled down so it’s bent over or deformed. Which brings me back to wondering how much you fed him when you got him as a tiny baby. Just curious about this as you are and looking for the cause. It shouldn’t have any impact on what’s going on with him now.
If he is not eating on his own right now, maybe try giving him some ReptaBoost for nutrition. However, if he is impacted/obstructed, you don’t want to put any more food in him until he can poo.https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000634CL4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Aside from a bowel obstruction, there could be other reasons for bloating. That’s where the blood work comes in as it can tell so much. Keeping him well hydrated is more important than feeding him right now. I did forget to add in your review - your night time temps are well below 68-70 so I would suggest using a cool mist humidifier/fogger at night to boost humidity as high as you can get it. This helps hydration by simulating the hydration chams get in the wild thru fog. For some chams, this is their primary way (plus their food) of getting their hydration.
justanotherchamowner
Member
I ordered the outside enclosure before he was sick, then he got very sick but the cage hadn't even arrived yet. It was set up days after he was sick. There are no tomato plants in my yard at all. My last vet visit before he was sick he really wanted me to get him outside as much as possible. As a long time (half my life) owner of green iguanas (currently don't own one). I'm 42 I understand the importance of natural sunlight on all reptiles and I wish I had started doing this at the beginning of summer!!!I split it wrong - whatever.
Fecal Description - Stool Brown / Urates bright White , liquid completely clear. Has has never been checked for parasites and I now realize I should have done it when I first got him. When he started pooping again a few days ago the stuff that came out was like a glob of mucus both times. I saved one in a test tube and it's in my fridge. In order to have a good fecal test done, the poo needs to be fresh within 24 hours. He hadn't eatin much because of how sick he was so no brown poop yet, but he was passing clear liquid, white urates and mucus/jello like substance in a big glob. I imagine this could be from the lactulose he is on but I'm not really sure. So he hasn’t passed a true poo yet? Can you post a pic the next time he goes? Is he eating on his own right now?
- History - Respiratory infection in Sinus which spread to eye at 4 to 5 months. He was taken to the exotic vet right away and it was cleared up using antibiotic/steroid drops. 2 x daily 7 days. He fell when he got away from me on the last day so fast (he's not the nicest) and slipped. Landed on his side from 2 feet. I was concerned but he got right back up immediately and climbed back to the top. He seemed 100 percent fine and was acting normal eating, drinking and his lively normal self. I noticed bumps on his ribs on that side about 2 months later. I took him to the vet 1.5 months ago to check on them and he confirmed the fractured but healed or close to 100 percent healed and he was in excellent health even growing 40 percent bigger in under 3 months. Chameleons when feeling threatened and with no other option will throw themselves down to the ground as a last ditch escape attempt.
Cage Info:
Outside I have 1 very large ficus for maximum shade when he needs it plus natural branches everywhere. It's designed to be able to take apart in minutes if I ever need to move it like cutting the lawn. This outdoor enclosure is a new addition 2 weeks ago when he got sick. Nothing like fresh air and sunshine.
- Cage Type - 1 indoor reptibreeze XL 4x2x2. 1-new outdoor reptibreeze XL 4x2x2 Excellent.
- Lighting - Started with ReptiSun T5 5%. When he got a sinus infection I turned off the T5 before I got to the Vet and bought a T8 5%. This was before I confirmed the infection and wanted to make sure it wasn't a T5 to close and hurting his eyes. Heat is an old school frosted incandescent bulb. 75w. We already covered the uvb - go back to the T5 5.0.
- Temperature - Basking is a max of 84 degrees at its hottest point. What is the distance between uvb light and his basking branch? It should be about 8-9” with the T5 5.0. About 1 inch of his basking area. The rest of the basking area ranges from 81 to 83. Temps are taken with a digital laser gun. Floor is about the same as my house around 70 -72 degrees. Night time temps drop in the house to 66 degrees. His lights are on a timer and are 12 on 12 off. 630 to 630. Temps are great!
- Humidity - humidity levels in the winter are around 50 percent and a little higher in the summer. He has no problems with shedding at all. First vet visit he couldn't find a single spec of stuck shed anywhere on his body. 50% is on the high side for veileds. Ideal range for daytime is between 30-50%. Having excellent ventilation is key if having trouble keeping humidity low enough. High heat + high humidity + stagnant air is a recipe for a definite respiratory infection.
- Plants - 90 percent live plants. I purchased them from a chameleon safe plant list on Reddit. I have a number of them. 2 Photos, money tee, 1 -swiss pothos, a fern, and there is one brightly colored plant that was on the list but I honestly don't remember the name of it. If you post a pic we maybe could tell you what it is. I'm planning on removing the last 3 very small fake plants. YES! The big problem with fake plants and veileds is they like to nibble their plants and don’t know enough to recognize that the plant is fake and not edible. It only takes one nibble and a bowel obstruction can occur. I’m really praying that your guy doesn’t have any obstruction/impaction. If he does have one and can’t pass it on his own, I believe he would need surgery which is probably risky and expensive. I left them as a slight filler for when he really wants to hide somewhere and get away but they are not needed. I think many of us started with fake ones. I have mine hung on the outside door of my enclosures to give my chams a sense of more privacy.
He is not next to any vents.
- Placement - In the living room next to a large door window. Yes it's higher traffic but we also have a small family of 3 of us. There is literally no where else I can keep him in my house and I'm definitely not sticking him in my basement. I leave him alone and observe him for hours sometimes from the couch. He loves to spend some time gazing through the very large window. They have natural curiosity and enjoy having views. Lots of natural sunlight all day. I know the glass blocks the beneficial part of uv but it keeps everything lit up nicely in his enclosure all day long. Just be careful of the greenhouse effect and the sun coming in and overheating him.
- Location - Midwest
MissSkittles
Chameleon Enthusiast
I just posted a crazy question that I think you should pay attention to. https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/vibration-for-constipation.190675/ Let’s see what everyone says about it.
justanotherchamowner
Member
Yes I am aware of his stunted growth and have asked the vet before but no 100 percent answer. We thought he might have had a respiratory infection in his sinus longer than he showed signs for at the beginning. He started growing rapidly after that cleared up. I would say when I first got him he was probably eating 7 small crickets a day and 2 small Dubias. Plus snacks here and there. I made sure he always had food though so it wasn't a lack of food but obviously there has been something going on from the beginning.
He is pooping again!! A fresh poop this morning which involved white urates, clear liquid and some poop. The poop wasn't completely dark brown. It was a lighter brown but close (over half his normal size) bagged it up in the tube they gave me the other day.
Also, I withheld food for close to 4-5 days after the first vet visit. I was literally giving him his meds and Pedialyte. I was making sure he started going to the bathroom on his own before I even started the food again. I started slowly with pureed Pedialyte/Insects/carrots (carrots were a tiny amount for additional fiber to make sure his bowels were moving. I chose carrots because of lower sugar and higher fiber and I looked it up and they are non toxic to chameleons. This was just a random thing I did.
Today he ate 1 wax worm this morning. And when I get back home in a bit I'm going to give him some more Pedialyte and try 1 small hornworm. I'm avoiding crickets and dubias unless they are pureed for now.
justanotherchamowner
Member
I like it!! Im currently doing this with my hands once a day and very very like warm water about 1/2 inch.
Reprivite is the one most people use. Calcium to phosphorous can be at 2.1…you’re only giving that bit of phosphorous twice a month …the rest of the time you’re giving phos free calcium powder.
Miner-all does not contain vitamins…it’s minerals…so by dropping The reptivite, you are not giving your chameleon any vitamins..including prEformed vitamin A.
MissSkittles
Chameleon Enthusiast
Yay! Poo goo with color! I’m really pulling hard for your guy to get thru this and I know you’re putting your all in to him. 
) you could try one of those little fingertip massagers that they sell by the condoms. If it’s too strong you could put a washcloth between it and his belly.
If you have no embarrassment about it (& at 42 you should be at that point by now
) you could try one of those little fingertip massagers that they sell by the condoms. If it’s too strong you could put a washcloth between it and his belly.justanotherchamowner
Member
We are talking about chameleons here right? HahaaaYay! Poo goo with color! I’m really pulling hard for your guy to get thru this and I know you’re putting your all in to him.
If you have no embarrassment about it (& at 42 you should be at that point by now
