MBD Recovery Not going well

[roxypepperch]

Hello. I have had my female veiled cham (Katana) for about three and a half months. I got her from a pet store when she was very young so she isn't very old. I followed the instructions they gave but clearly I didn't do as well on supplements as I should have. I do have the proper lighting. She actively avoided calcium supplement dusted crickets and since I gut-loaded my crickets with fluckers calcium fortified diet and fluckers cricket quencher with calcium, I thought since she was doing well that that was enough and that is what they said when I asked them at the pet store. Well a week ago she started a little facial shedding and she normally gets moody and eats less when she sheds so at first I thought nothing of her behavior. Then a couple days ago I noticed she was on the bottom of the enclosure just writhing around and not really getting anywhere. I thought she was going to die that night because she wouldn't eat her crickets or drink. After reading about the symptoms I suspected it was MBD even though her downhill spiral was quicker than some others because her legs didn't look as bad as most pics.

I took her to the vet yesterday and they said it was most likely MBD and that one leg was swollen where she possibly broke it during a fall. There aren't any great exotic vets in my area and I don't have a lot of extra money to spend because I was in the process of building a large enclosure for her (also had a car accident less than a month ago). So when the vet wanted X-rays and I asked what that would change and she said really nothing because even if the leg was broken they couldn't splint it. So I told her I didn't want the X-rays. I was hoping she would give her the calcium injections but she just gave me liquid to give her twice a day and another liquid that is an anti-inflammatory for her hurt leg. She had been drinking but has now completely stopped. I had to use a credit card to pry open her mouth to give her the medicine. I really didn't want to do this because I know she is horribly stressed but I figure she would die without me doing it. She seems worse now than before. Could that just be from the stress? My vet didn't seem to hold out hope for any sick chameleon. She said they really just aren't good pets and are just impossible to keep alive because they are stressed so easy and everything. I'm determined to at least do everything I can to give her the best shot at getting better.

Does anyone else have experience with recovery from MBD? I can't change my mistakes from when I first got her but I am willing to do whatever I need to to help her. The vet didn't have much advice besides the meds and try to get her to eat with wax worms or outdoor bugs to catch but she won't eat anything. I have seen people who force feed their chams but I don't know if the stress would be worse than the lack of food since she is at least getting hydration from the calcium liquid meds. Also, should I basically clear out her tank except for leaf cover to hide under? I took out her tallest branches and vines so she wouldn't fall but having her just crawling around in the coconut substrate (the vet said this was fine) just don't seem great to me. Also, should I adjust her temps differently since she will be on the bottom instead of on a bask? Her tank is tall (made for young chams) so her lighting and basking lamp are at the top far away from her. Also, I wanted to start taking her outside to get some actual sunshine but since she isn't used to it I was worried about stress. I tried yesterday and she immediately gaped when we got out there (she never gapes). Any thoughts? Thanks in advance.

 

[Andee]

Ok first things first, vines are important for lack of stress and muscle building in chameleons who have mbd. Chameleons who have mbd lose not only bone mass and get breaks easier, but they lose muscle control, problems with digesting, etc. The important things with mbd is keeping a chameleon that can exercise, exercising as much and as safely as possible. Get rid of the substrate immediately, it causes enough problems with impaction in healthy chameleons, in a chameleons with mbd it would be a really serious problem. Instead put down towels to cushion any falls and work on making a catch net as well because that will be a better solution. For medication, how much does she weigh in grams? Do you know? I can give you a general ball park of how much you should be giving her for liquid calcium since your vet doesn't sound very reliable and might have given you poor numbers. As for medicating, an easier way than a credit card in may opinion, is taking a 1cc oral syringe and taking your thumb and forefinger, placing it on either side of her head at the edge of the corners of her mouth. This usually make chameleons grumpy and likely to gape, it also allow for a better grip. The point of medicating is pretty much no matter how you do it, it will stress her out, what you have to remember is do it for as short as time as possible and then leave her alone for at least 30-1 hour to just let hee decompress. Or if she will take it offer her a food that is her favorite. I offer stuff like young hornworms or silkworms for my medication babies as they tend to eat those immediately and will often hand feed with them. Now if she doesn't gape, I am not saying it will be fun for either of you, but it's usually easier this way, wedge the tip of the oral syringe in between her lips and usually if you rub it gently back and forth she will get frustrated and open her mouth, you might have to pry a bit at her jaw to encourage it, this is you chance. What you do is place the oral syringe until the tip is into the front of her throat/the back of her mouth and then just push the plunger. Hold her head a bit once you pull out the syringe so she swallows all the medicine, I have had some who will either spit some out when I've given it to them, or thrash when I let go and some falls out. Once she swallows step back close the cage and clean everything. Then offer her food, if she has never hand fed from her I personally would just place a silkworms or hornworms in front of her and leave, come and check on her in a few minutes to make sure she ate it and it didn't just run away. Otherwise don't bother her unless you have to.

Now my way may sound a bit harsh, but it's fast, once you get it down it usually lasts as long as 1 minute if you have someone who is particularly stubborn. They can get bruises from the syringe. But if you regularly switch sides of the mouth they really aren't much of a problem, because they are just a bruise and chameleons heal superficial bruises like these extremely fast. What's more important is you cause minimal stress for ainimal amount of time. And you get all their meds.

As far as gutloading a food sources, if someone hasn't already told you flukers products are crap. And as for supplements in dust form I prefer all in one multivitamin and mineral dusts as they are easier to absorb.

 

[Andee]

Oh and outside time, if you have the right weather, use natural uvb to its fullest, abuse it like no tomorrow. What I would do, if you notice uneasy behavior with her, (such as flattening in the way that shows she is obviously uncomfortable) sometimes gaping is not a good way to guess with uncomfortable behaviors. Chameleons gape when upset, stressed etc. But they also gape when thermoregulating. Also chameleons when outside will often turn dark colors in the beginning when soaking up sun. What I recommend when introducing a chameleon to the outside, especially a baby, since little ones a generally very suspicious, is you do it once a day for 15 minutes no matter what the reaction is (unless it is flat out terror and running). In my opinion if she seems uneasy the first few times, this is totally normal and you should wait the entire 15 minutes before going in. Going outside with a chameleon who is uneasy is an amazing bonding experience, if you sit with them for a bit, and sit with them the entire time, they will realize that they can trust a bit more because you made sure nothing happened to them. At least this is how my experience has been with my chameleons. I don't know if this is exactly what goes through their head lol. As she seems to get more at ease you can increase outside time definitely.

 

[Lizzie The Chameleon]

you said she was going to the bottom of the cage, is she gravid? females can lay infertile clutches even without ever seeing a male and after they hit about 4 months, they need a laying bin about 12 inches deep of playsand or they will become egg bound and die. i could tell you if she was gravid by a picture is you are not sure. good luck!

 

[roxypepperch]

As far as the meds go, the vet pre-loaded each syringe with one dose so I can't make any adjustments. It says it is 0.06 mL medication + dilutant. Thats the calcium glubionate 23 mG/mL. Her other med is metacam 0.5 mG/mL and it is 0.02 mL med + dilutant in each syringe. She has her follow up appointment the next Wednesday so if anyone has any better ideas about the meds I could bring them up at that visit. I've tried rubbing the syringe on her lip and can get it in her lip but she locks her teeth so I can't get it in her mouth so that's why I was using the credit card to slip in between her teeth and then she opens her bottom jaw wide and I squirt in the meds that way. I think I could probably force feed her this way to if she won't take anything on her own. I watched a force feed video where they rub a mealworm against the cham's lip and they apparently usually open and take if after awhile but if she doesn't I could stick it in her mouth under the credit card.

She has vines on the bottom of the tank with her and she hadn't been able to even lift up herself up at all but this morning she is lifting the top part of her body so I am happy to see that. I am going to take everything out and put a towel on the bottom like you suggested but I'm trying to only do one thing at a time and give her a break in between so she doesn't get overly stressed. I live in Arkansas and it has been in the 80s until today and now it is in the 60s but still sunny. I know that is cold for her but with the sun would that be ok to have her outside only about 15 minutes?

The vet felt of her and didn't seem to think she had eggs but like I said I'm not sure I completely trust her. I really hope she doesn't because she still doesn't move well so she wouldn't be able to dig and everything like they need to to lay her eggs. I'm attaching a pic of her. Thanks for all the advice.

 

[Lizzie The Chameleon]

WOW poor girl! i've never seen a cham with legs that swollen before! she isn't showing gravid coloring, but then again not all chams do. maybe @jannb can help you with that one. wishing you guys good luck and hope she feels better soon!

 

[Andee]

Yes I agree her legs are very swollen, poor baby. Hopefully she will make it through this. If the credit card is working then do it, just make it as quick as possible. In my opinion 0.06 of liquid calcium in two doses a day... wouldn't be near enough for a girl her size and in her condition in my opinion. I mean my male isn't near as bad as her and is about her size, probably weighs the same and is a little bit longer, and he take .4-.5 cc in one dose once a day. From the sounds of it the liquid calcium is the usual diluted amount, though I would wait for someone whose got a bit more knowledge on measurements before you alter it too much. However I would feel comfortable upgrading her to .2 ml or cc in one dose once a day. That way there is less stress. So next time you go into the vet, ask if you can get premixed liquid calcium in a 2oz container. My vets always provide me with at least .5 oz depending on how many chameleons or reptiles I have under my care who need it. Sometimes I can have as many as five. With her I would keep 2oz on hand because she can easily go into a laying season where you may need to prepare her as much as possible by increasing it a bit, and also ask for several 1 cc syringes so you can adjust the units if you need. Yes liquid calcium can be dangerous if over medicated, anything can be, but the thing with females who use so much calcium when producing eggs is you can add a little bit extra with liquid calcium and be safe. The most I would ever add to a laying females medication is .05. But with her I honestly don't think she is on near enough.

 

[roxypepperch]

Yes her legs are so swollen . Especially that back one. The vet thinks that she fell and probably broke that one. She won't quit moving around so I'm sure that is irritating it even more. The thing is, I was watching her so closely and her legs weren't swollen or curved at all just a couple weeks ago. She is very friendly and so I handle her and keep a close eye on her because I saw the pictures of MBD with the curved legs. Then I had a car wreck and I live with and am the sole care-giver for my grandparents so for about 2 weeks I didn't take her out, I just fed her and saw she was on her perch so I didn't really notice that she went downhill so fast until she was on the bottom. I was so convinced she was dead no matter what so I'm really happy she is making progress. I am the biggest animal lover and I just hate that this is happening because I know she is suffering because I didn't get all the right information. And the bad part is that everyone I know here thinks I'm stupid for spending the money to take her to the vet or anything. I live in an area where pets are just throw aways and if something gets sick, then people just get rid of it and get a new pet. So I'm glad I can talk to everyone on here that understands.

I took her outside for 15 minutes this afternoon and she seemed to like it or at least tolerate it. She did turn very dark because it was so sunny. While we were outside she tried to eat a fly which was the first she has tried to eat anything in several days. When we came back in I gave her the calcium meds and I used a method I read about where you pinch the sides of their head and she opened her mouth on her own. She also ate meal worms on her own when I put her back in her tank. This evening I took her out to give her the second dose and she locked up again so I used the credit card method and then I changed her tank around because she is getting more mobile and I was worrying about her falling again. I took out the coconut fiber and put these baby towels at the bottom and put her vines around closer to the ground so she can't climb high. I had caught her climbing about 4 inches off the ground earlier and she was unable to hold on herself so now she can climb around but it is just almost flat on the bottom. I didn't dust the mealworms because I just wanted her to eat something and I was afraid she wouldn't eat them but if she keeps eating then I will try dusting them. The vet said to give her anything she would eat so I'm going to go get some waxworms tomorrow as well as some of the smaller crickets. The petsmart has hornworms but they are huge so I don't know about that. Any other insect suggestions?

I'm going to do more research on those dosages and Monday I'll call and ask her weight. They were trying to make it easier on me by drawing everything up in advanced but I went to 2 years of medical school so I'm comfortable with drawing up my own meds and everything and even giving injections if I need to. I found one veterinary journal article about the treatment of severe MBD with injections and I may print that and any other info and take it with me when I go back. Also in the next month I have to drive 3 hours to Little Rock for my own doctor's appointment and I figure there must be a better exotic vet there so I can take her with me to see someone there if I'm still dissatisfied with the vet here. I used to live there and so I'm sure my old vet could recommend someone since they only see dogs and cats and if not my vet that I usually see here that sees only dogs and cats could possibly recommend someone because I trust him a lot. He has really helped my chihuahua that has had a lot of health problems. Thanks to everyone. I haven't messaged on here before but someone suggested Jann and I had read a post by her about MBD so I may message her directly and see if she has any other advice as well.

 

[Andee]

I would definitely message Jann she will help in any way she can. And she's a wonderful resource ,she too has done a lot of rescue work and sometimes the chams she rescues also are more into their senior years so have extra problems. She also has some amazing vets on her side. She may know some near you who are more helpful. Since she showed interest in the fly and she doesn't like powdered food at all, you might want to try Phoenix/black soldier fly larvae. You can get they online and they don't need gutloading once they arrive. They are extremely naturally high in calcium and don't need extra supplements. You can also separate some and let them pupate into flies and feed the flies to her. Just don't put the worms in the fridge they usually dry out much quicker if you do that.

 

[roxypepperch]

Do you have a site that you order from that is good and reliable? I tried some with crickets but didn't have much luck so just started buying them in store but I know I need to have her on a more variable diet when she gets bigger so finding a good site would be helpful. Also, you said flukers was crap so what would you recommend for gut loading and caring for the crickets?
Thanks

 

[Lizzie The Chameleon]

Also, you said flukers was crap so what would you recommend for gut loading and caring for the crickets?
Thanks

i personally recommend bug burger. some of this forums sponsors sell & ship hornworms silkworms etc.

 

[Andee]

Umm personally for gutloads I make my own. But if you want to go an easy way that gets everything you need and repashy super load works combined with either cricket crack or bug buffet, you should add about a cup or half a cup of the super load to the bug buffet or the cricket crack. The super load is extremely strong and has a lot of good ingredients however some of its major ingredients are not helpful if used in too large of quantity. That is why it is best when paired with a good but generally deficient gutload such as cricket crack or bug buffet. The problem with them is they are great food for regular feedings, but in my opinion if you are trying to gutload quickly you need an extra boost with them. For wet gutload you need a variety of fruits and veggies, good veggies I use, winter squashes, summer squashes, zucchini, carrots, Dino and Tuscan kale, mustard greens, dandelion greens, sweet potato. For fruit, I use old bananas that are too brown for me, and just cut them and throw them with the peel in, orange pieces, strawberry tops when I have cut strawberries (they will eat leaves and the fruit left over), older raspberries that are a bit mushy or something but not moldy, I have used brown apples and when apples in the fridge get kind of wrinkly or something... But never feed mold. Just feed fruit or veggies if you wouldn't technically eat it but it would be safe to eat.

Now as far as feeders, it depends on what you are looking for. I sometimes order from eBay though sometimes you can get bad insects with them. And I am not just talking about a dead shipment but also poorly taken care of, such as carrying mites or phorrid flies. Crickets are safe at ghanns supposedly. So search in Google Ghann's crickets. You should try coastal silkworms right now, they have live silkworms at the moment, just remember to buy chow if you don't have it. Phoenix worms I think you can get from mulberry farms or certain cricket farms. Not sure I don't usually order crickets because I normally don't feed them.

 

[Andee]

i personally recommend bug burger. some of this forums sponsors sell & ship hornworms silkworms etc.

Try looking on the forum classifieds too, sometimes forum members have amazing deals on feeders they raise themselves.

I would personally not recommend bug burger, it is not good enough to be fed on its own in the way that it has too many useless products in it as fillers and it also has products high up in the list that are bad in high quantities but good in low quantities. So super load has the same problem that the products high up in the list are bad in high quantities but good in low quantities. However with super load you get more useful ingredients and less of the useless ingredients.

 

[Lizzie The Chameleon]

Try looking on the forum classifieds too, sometimes forum members have amazing deals on feeders they raise themselves.

I would personally not recommend bug burger, it is not good enough to be fed on its own in the way that it has too many useless products in it as fillers and it also has products high up in the list that are bad in high quantities but good in low quantities. So super load has the same problem that the products high up in the list are bad in high quantities but good in low quantities. However with super load you get more useful ingredients and less of the useless ingredients.

oh really? i've heard bugburger was like the best. learn something new with every post on this forum it's really amazing

 

[Andee]

The only reason I know what I know is because I make my own and completely research all food items that go into my gut loads. Now bug burger is by far one of the better commercial gutloads out there compared to stuff like flukers and will etc. However repashy itself makes better ones and even then I would only use most of them in addition to another one. ^^

 

[rminnis]

Get her some superworms, banded crickets, dubai roaches, or silkworms these are much better for your chame then waxworms or mealworms