MDB or Gout - Includes Xrays

[Pickle-cham]

How are the Dubai gutloaded,?
The reason I ask is if they are fed a high protein diet they can potentially contribute to gout. The roaches store excess protein as uric acid which will potentially pass up the food chain when consumed.
Uric acid and purines are linked to gout and kidney problems when in excess but not likely the case here since your chameleon is only 6 months.

A t5ho light set up for UV might be more cost effective in long run as bulb needs changing less frequently than t8's plus better penetration of usable light for D3 synthesis. I'm not familiar with your supplement regime but I am a believer that the supplements should match the lighting provided. The better the UV the less d3.

The latest picture looks a lot better than the earlier photos eyes less sunken, if it is mbd it hasn't got to the stage of bow legs or rubber jaw by the looks of the photos.

 

[Bebopboop]

How are the Dubai gutloaded,?
The reason I ask is if they are fed a high protein diet they can potentially contribute to gout. The roaches store excess protein as uric acid which will potentially pass up the food chain when consumed.
Uric acid and purines are linked to gout and kidney problems when in excess but not likely the case here since your chameleon is only 6 months.

A t5ho light set up for UV might be more cost effective in long run as bulb needs changing less frequently than t8's plus better penetration of usable light for D3 synthesis. I'm not familiar with your supplement regime but I am a believer that the supplements should match the lighting provided. The better the UV the less d3.

The latest picture looks a lot better than the earlier photos eyes less sunken, if it is mbd it hasn't got to the stage of bow legs or rubber jaw by the looks of the photos.

Hello! Thank you for your concern and suggestions. I super appreciate them! I just answered some of these questions above (we must have been typing at the same time )

I also meant to say (related to the vets diagnosis) that I am hoping that these recovery signs DO point to MBD and not to gout -- then at least I'd know we are giving good treatment. But again - we will see what the vet recommends on Friday and if we should do blood tests.

I also take Bebop out for sunshine almost every day! He is pretty social (as far as chams go) and comes willingly on to my hand! So we sit on the front porch together most mornings to soak up some natural vit d.

 

[Bebopboop]

How are the Dubai gutloaded,?
The reason I ask is if they are fed a high protein diet they can potentially contribute to gout. The roaches store excess protein as uric acid which will potentially pass up the food chain when consumed.
Uric acid and purines are linked to gout and kidney problems when in excess but not likely the case here since your chameleon is only 6 months.

A t5ho light set up for UV might be more cost effective in long run as bulb needs changing less frequently than t8's plus better penetration of usable light for D3 synthesis. I'm not familiar with your supplement regime but I am a believer that the supplements should match the lighting provided. The better the UV the less d3.

The latest picture looks a lot better than the earlier photos eyes less sunken, if it is mbd it hasn't got to the stage of bow legs or rubber jaw by the looks of the photos.

Ah yes! We use the t5ho light 5.0 reptisun

 

[Pickle-cham]

Hello! Thank you for your concern and suggestions. I super appreciate them! I just answered some of these questions above (we must have been typing at the same time )

I also meant to say (related to the vets diagnosis) that I am hoping that these recovery signs DO point to MBD and not to gout -- then at least I'd know we are giving good treatment. But again - we will see what the vet recommends on Friday and if we should do blood tests.

I also take Bebop out for sunshine almost every day! He is pretty social (as far as chams go) and comes willingly on to my hand! So we sit on the front porch together most mornings to soak up some natural vit d.

I'm a slow type
Oops sorry for duplicated question. So your supplement with vit D what levels of synthetic vitamin D? You might have to take into consideration the natural light you provide as the chameleon if it gets a lot of sun then less D3 supplement is required.

You say your conservative with supplements though so probably also not the issue here neither will it be hypercalcaemia where too much calcium thins the bones.


Hope the vet can help your little guy

 

[kinyonga]

So have you been taking him out for sunshine for most/all his time with you? If so, he should have been producing enough D3 along with what you were giving him.

In the last photo you posted his ankle looks bent…is it always like that?

He‘s giving mixed signals to me…some indications it could be MBD but no real outward indications.

If it’s MBD…then the calcium glubionate should help,..but only if he gets the appropriate amount of D3 either produced from exposure to the UVB light along with the D3 supplements…but vitamin A might also be playing a part in it. Without the D3 he can’t absorb the calcium.

The main consequence of vitamin D overdose is a buildup of calcium in your blood (hypercalcemia). I would say the main consequence of low vitamin D3 is MBD or bone loss.

If it’s MBD, then he might not eat well…when a chameleon has MBD, it also makes the muscles weak…so food moves slower through the digestive system…thus, less hunger and less pooping.

Also, the carnivore care is ok to use for a few days but it might be better to use Susan James/Kenny Lopez’s bug juice recipe,,,
http://www.adcham.com/html/husbandry/bug-juice.html

Hope you get it sorted out in the end.

 

[Beman]

I just dont won't any fecal samples that are < week old I'm syringe feeding him now, but in his current condition i feel like he is too weak to poop (it really seems like it takes some effort lol). Hopefully he will be able to pass something though before the appt.

Thank you!

Yeah no it needs to be a fresh fecal. Hopefully he will pass one. Remember he just went off food. So force feeding can be far more stressful. I would be careful with it.

 

[Bebopboop]

So have you been taking him out for sunshine for most/all his time with you? If so, he should have been producing enough D3 along with what you were giving him.

In the last photo you posted his ankle looks bent…is it always like that?

He‘s giving mixed signals to me…some indications it could be MBD but no real outward indications.

If it’s MBD…then the calcium glubionate should help,..but only if he gets the appropriate amount of D3 either produced from exposure to the UVB light along with the D3 supplements…but vitamin A might also be playing a part in it. Without the D3 he can’t absorb the calcium.

The main consequence of vitamin D overdose is a buildup of calcium in your blood (hypercalcemia). I would say the main consequence of low vitamin D3 is MBD or bone loss.

If it’s MBD, then he might not eat well…when a chameleon has MBD, it also makes the muscles weak…so food moves slower through the digestive system…thus, less hunger and less pooping.

Also, the carnivore care is ok to use for a few days but it might be better to use Susan James/Kenny Lopez’s bug juice recipe,,,
http://www.adcham.com/html/husbandry/bug-juice.html

Hope you get it sorted out in the end.

Yes! I take him out into the sun whenever I can/ whenever he is willing.. I've been pretty obsessive about this and his care in general, but I am also a new chameleon owner so I know I could have been making mistakes

On Sunday night (the night before the emergency visit) I noticed his back ankles looked extra bent/ it seemes like he was having an especially hard time moving those. Also, he was moving his back legs in really odd positions - like they looked dislocated or something... One idea I had is that he fell while I was out and broke some bones or pinched a nerve or something...

This might make sense with the MBD.. if his bones were weakening over time and then a fall led to this episode. Idk It's all speculation. I thought he was getting his vitamin A from the repashy clacium loD.

Is there something wrong with the Emeraid supplements? Someone on facebook recommended this: Flukers Reptia+Boost .. any thoughts?

 

[Bebopboop]

Yeah no it needs to be a fresh fecal. Hopefully he will pass one. Remember he just went off food. So force feeding can be far more stressful. I would be careful with it.

Thank you for this advice! I am just giving a tiny bit.. .5-1 ml once a day in hopes that it isnt too stresful but that he can still get some nutrients and fluid.

 

[kinyonga]

Regarding the carnivore care…it’s made for meat eaters rather than insectivores…so IMHO it’s better not to use it for long.

 

[Bebopboop]

Regarding the carnivore care…it’s made for meat eaters rather than insectivores…so IMHO it’s better not to use it for long.

Got it! Thanks for sending the bug juice recipe!! I didn't know that was a thing.

 

[Bebopboop]

So have you been taking him out for sunshine for most/all his time with you? If so, he should have been producing enough D3 along with what you were giving him.

In the last photo you posted his ankle looks bent…is it always like that?

He‘s giving mixed signals to me…some indications it could be MBD but no real outward indications.

If it’s MBD…then the calcium glubionate should help,..but only if he gets the appropriate amount of D3 either produced from exposure to the UVB light along with the D3 supplements…but vitamin A might also be playing a part in it. Without the D3 he can’t absorb the calcium.

The main consequence of vitamin D overdose is a buildup of calcium in your blood (hypercalcemia). I would say the main consequence of low vitamin D3 is MBD or bone loss.

If it’s MBD, then he might not eat well…when a chameleon has MBD, it also makes the muscles weak…so food moves slower through the digestive system…thus, less hunger and less pooping.

Also, the carnivore care is ok to use for a few days but it might be better to use Susan James/Kenny Lopez’s bug juice recipe,,,
http://www.adcham.com/html/husbandry/bug-juice.html

Hope you get it sorted out in the end.

Hi again! Sorry to keep messaging, but I agree that the outward signs of MBD aren't present.. like any deformities or anything, but all the other symptoms are there. it all just happened SO fast, which is why i think maybe a fall or injury happened and made some of these syt

So have you been taking him out for sunshine for most/all his time with you? If so, he should have been producing enough D3 along with what you were giving him.

In the last photo you posted his ankle looks bent…is it always like that?

He‘s giving mixed signals to me…some indications it could be MBD but no real outward indications.

If it’s MBD…then the calcium glubionate should help,..but only if he gets the appropriate amount of D3 either produced from exposure to the UVB light along with the D3 supplements…but vitamin A might also be playing a part in it. Without the D3 he can’t absorb the calcium.

The main consequence of vitamin D overdose is a buildup of calcium in your blood (hypercalcemia). I would say the main consequence of low vitamin D3 is MBD or bone loss.

If it’s MBD, then he might not eat well…when a chameleon has MBD, it also makes the muscles weak…so food moves slower through the digestive system…thus, less hunger and less pooping.

Also, the carnivore care is ok to use for a few days but it might be better to use Susan James/Kenny Lopez’s bug juice recipe,,,
http://www.adcham.com/html/husbandry/bug-juice.html

Hope you get it sorted out in the end.

Now I’m thinking the only thing that makes sense is too much vitamin d3. Bebop really does get a lot of natural sunlight and he has good UV light as well…

I only started giving him the repashy supplements with d3 a little over month ago. Would that make sense? Could he overdose on d3 from 3-4 Dustings if he was already getting enough d3?

If so, then is this extra calcium treatment extra toxic? But he also seems to be getting better?

Lol ugh… so many questions, but I just can’t stop thinking about it. Now am just frustrated the vet charged so much for the emeraid stuff when I could have been grinding my crickets and egg yolks together

 

[Beman]

Hey there oral D3 supplements can overdose the body. D3 from light can not cause an overdose. Their body just will not make what they do not need. Repashy Calcium plus LoD version 2 times a month would not cause an overdose issue.

 

[kinyonga]

You said…”Now I’m thinking the only thing that makes sense is too much vitamin d3. Bebop really does get a lot of natural sunlight and he has good UV light as well”… D3 produced from exposure to UVB light whether it’s from the sun or a UVB light should not lead to an overdose… it’s regulated by the body…only producing what is needed. D3 from supplements is a different matter…it’s already in the form thats ready to be used and can build up in the system and lead to MBD.

You said…”I only started giving him the repashy supplements with d3 a little over month ago. Would that make sense? Could he overdose on d3 from 3-4 Dustings if he was already getting enough d3?”…not IMHO...remember I’m not a vet and only give my opinions based on what I’ve learned over the years.

 

[Bebopboop]

It seems like the vet treatment is working!!! In my opinion, he has made huge recoveries in short amount of time! He is even trying to climb today. I didn’t think I would ever see him on a branch again.

He doesn’t have good control over his limbs (esp his back legs seem extra uncoordinated), but this is huge considering I was preparing to say goodbye!

I am hoping he can make a recovery enough that he is comfortable he had a little bug juice today

 

[Pickle-cham]

That's good news, btw sometimes they have off weeks where they just don't eat for a bit.
When's the last time he shot for food? The elasticity of the tongue is a good indicator of health with regards to hypercalcaemia and hypocalcemia.

 

[Bebopboop]

That's good news, btw sometimes they have off weeks where they just don't eat for a bit.
When's the last time he shot for food? The elasticity of the tongue is a good indicator of health with regards to hypercalcaemia and hypocalcemia.

Good to know!! I have really just been syringing like 0.5 mls of something with fluid, plus his 0.06ml of calcium every day so i know he is getting some sort of hydration/nutrients.. really minimal and seems to be working so far! Haven't seen him use his tongue or eat on his own since Friday or Saturday but he does smack his lips and move his tongue around when he's swallowing... Monday and Tuesday he was barely moving at all, so I'm just hoping that he keeps making these slow recoveries.

is there a way to upload videos here? it's a little sad to see him so uncoordinated, but again just happy that he seems definitely not dying hah

 

[Pickle-cham]

Good to know!! I have really just been syringing like 0.5 mls of something with fluid, plus his 0.06ml of calcium every day so i know he is getting some sort of hydration/nutrients.. really minimal and seems to be working so far! Haven't seen him use his tongue or eat on his own since Friday or Saturday but he does smack his lips and move his tongue around when he's swallowing... Monday and Tuesday he was barely moving at all, so I'm just hoping that he keeps making these slow recoveries.

is there a way to upload videos here? it's a little sad to see him so uncoordinated, but again just happy that he seems definitely not dying hah

Yes it's possible via YouTube is easiest way there maybe other options I'm unaware of.

 

[Little Man Simba]

I used to be a veterinary radiology technician...based on your radiographs, it doesn't look like mbd to me, however, I do see a possibly enlarged liver and he has A LOT of food in there! Constipation & dehydration can cause some lethargy/sluggishness as well...

One thing to note, taking proper diagnostic radiographs requires skill and experience. Unfortunately, most vet's are not specialized enough to be able to take (and read) them as they should. When looking for something like a fracture is one thing, but for everything else, most practices send out radiographs to a radiology specialist (something you can do on your own too!). In my opinion, these radiographs are low quality, and the technique wasn't proper enough to reflect bone, only tissue. (A different setting is used for each).

When looking for mbd in radiographs you will see many tiny bright spots, which are bone calcification, from mini fractures. You will see much more transparency in the bones as well. Additionally, you will see the bones bending and joints will look undefined. I don't see much of that at all in yours, except the hind feet, which is probably only a positioning issue. He was probably trying to grasp when they took the shot.

I highly suggest that you find a good *radiology* specialist. Check out universities too! There is a great specialist at the Veterinary Specialty Hospital in San Diego, California. They may not work with reptiles much, but they are leaders in the field and if they can't give you a proper diagnosis (solely on bone density) they can probably refer you to someone who can!

 

[Bebopboop]

I used to be a veterinary radiology technician...based on your radiographs, it doesn't look like mbd to me, however, I do see a possibly enlarged liver and he has A LOT of food in there! Constipation & dehydration can cause some lethargy/sluggishness as well...

One thing to note, taking proper diagnostic radiographs requires skill and experience. Unfortunately, most vet's are not specialized enough to be able to take (and read) them as they should. When looking for something like a fracture is one thing, but for everything else, most practices send out radiographs to a radiology specialist (something you can do on your own too!). In my opinion, these radiographs are low quality, and the technique wasn't proper enough to reflect bone, only tissue. (A different setting is used for each).

When looking for mbd in radiographs you will see many tiny bright spots, which are bone calcification, from mini fractures. You will see much more transparency in the bones as well. Additionally, you will see the bones bending and joints will look undefined. I don't see much of that at all in yours, except the hind feet, which is probably only a positioning issue. He was probably trying to grasp when they took the shot.

I highly suggest that you find a good *radiology* specialist. Check out universities too! There is a great specialist at the Veterinary Specialty Hospital in San Diego, California. They may not work with reptiles much, but they are leaders in the field and if they can't give you a proper diagnosis (solely on bone density) they can probably refer you to someone who can!

Hi thank you for your input! The place we went sent the X-rays to their “reptile team” and radiologists, so I do think they had some external powers looking in - we waited around for the response. I think you can view the X-rays at a higher quality at this link: https://www.idexximagebank.com/emailView?emailToken=e0afca68-6f4b-4d0a-b2d3-9f7982100d80

Not sure what to do about the food. As I said he has been sooo weak - Monday and Tuesday barely moved at all. Today he tried to move and climb around!! Seems like he is gaining strength - hopefully enough to pass his food soon. It does seem like the calcium and food supplements are making a positive change. Today I saw him smackin his lips around so maybe he is starting to gain an appetite! Fingers crossed the trend continues in the right direction

 

[Bebopboop]

I up graded his hospital bin to a 16”x16”x30” butterfly cage on its side, and I think he is appreciating the extra space!!! He climbed up on this little perch all on his own

Thank you so much everyone for taking time and interest in this little guy