Metabolic Bone Disease

[dtrigg]

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Screen, I'm not sure what the dimensions are, but not too big for my chameleon..
Lighting - Either petzilla or something along those lines, they only carry one kind in Alaska
Temperature - His temp ranges from 70 on one side to about 90 on the other, that's in the day and night time
Humidity - humidity has been dropping lately because of the stinkin' winters here, usually from 25% to 40%.. again, I know, low, but I've been trying like crazy to get it better..
Plants - no live plants
Placement - low traffic, end of my bed in my room
Location - Alaska

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - veiled, boy, around 9 or 10 months old
Handling - never
Feeding - crickets, with gutload.
Supplements - I have a calcium supplement I obivously wasn't using enough
Watering - I mist a whole lot, I have a dripper as well as I leave a bowl of water in the bottom of his cage which helps with humidity
Fecal Description - hasn't had any lately, but usually little and white.. I don't know the consistency
Story - no idea, I got him from a pet store
Current Problem - He has MBD

I live in Alaska and obviously haven't been taking the best care of my chameleon if he got MBD. It's kind of advanced I would say from looking at pictures of others who have said it's advanced. He isn't eating at all anymore and I can't get him to drink. There are no reptile vets here in Alaska and I called the vets around my town who said they wouldn't know what to do with a chameleon if I brought it in, so there wasn't a point in stressing him out. He hasn't falled off anything yet but has come close a few times, I've been there to catch him and help him back up most of the time. I want him to not suffer, but I don't know what to do for him. He refuses to eat from my hand (or any tweezers, for that matter) and hates it when I spray him or try to get him to drink water. I've been soaking crickets in calcium spray and squishing them a little so they won't move and putting them right in front of him and he just looks the other way.

Any suggessions?

 

[pssh]

Post some pictures.

As for feeding, get him to hiss and put a cricket in his mouth when he opens it, put a new one in as he chews until he refuses to eat anymore or you feel he's had enough.

Do you have a UVB light? What kind of supplement is it? A vet would be able to give him calcium shots, perhaps the vets could call other vets and at least ask how much to give him? I'd call agood chameleon vet (even if they are really far away) and ask what they think you should do.

 

[dtrigg]

I have a red bulb and two blue/white bulbs, if I had kept the packaging I would tell you what they are I put the red on at night and the two white/blue on in the day, but that's it as far as heating goes because the temperature gauges always said he was in a good range. I'm working on pictures now, but he doesn't look so great.

 

[pssh]

He needs a UVB bulb now. Reptisun 5.0 tube is the best you can give him. He also needs a calcium supplement with d3 so he can absorb the cacium into his bones. Like I said before, call a good chameleon vet and ask for advise. There is a sticky that has a list of good herp vets. Look there.

 

[kinyonga]

If a chameleon has MBD its important to bring the calcium, etc. back into balance and for the calcium to get back into the bone. A vet can accomplish this by giving the chameleon injections of calcium until the blood calcium levels are high enough to give it a shot of calcitonin to draw it back into the bones. After the levels are brought back into balance, proper husbandry should keep them there.

If there is no vet to help, the levels can be brought back into line by giving the chameleon liquid calcium sandoz or calcium gluconate in place of the injections and the calcium will hopefully get back into the bones. However, you would have a hard time knowing if the calcium was back in balance or not.

The balance can be corrected, but any damage done won't likely be undone. If the damage to the organs, etc. is not too extensive and the husbandry is good the chameleon could live a long normal life.

 

[newbie]

It sounds like it MAY be MBD. If it is you'll need to act correctly and speedily.

First thing you need to know if it is. Get a positive identification. Some symptoms are week grip a sudden shudder-(like a shiver

in a person). Bowed limbs, falling.

MBD is caused by lack of calcium in the diet or if it's present an inability for the animal to metabolise it.

This may sound controversial but a reptile veterinarian would be best if you can afford it. However most vets are simply not

capable of treating them. And some are incompetent. In any case they will charge you a consultancy fee then for any treatments

which will be ongoing. Unless you are very wealthy you are probably better spending money on improving its living quarter. And

bringing up to standard. And treating the animal yourself. I don’t mean saving money so you can spend it on a holiday or car!

A vet should take into consideration the animals size but in any case the first thing should be to get calcium into the animal.

This should be injected directly into its bone providing the animal is large enough. Pure calcium liquid should then be regularly

administered.
Note that like moss in a lawn it’s a symptom of things not right like taking the gardening analogy you can kill the moss but it

will soon return because you need to treat the underlining cause - shade, PH. compact soil overhanging tree etc.
A vet. will only treat the symptom but will do nothing about the cause - you need to treat BOTH.

So it is with the vivarium, spending all your money at the vet may leave you short on the money required to improve conditions.

It's a matter of priorities. My advise is go on line order Trex - Bone Aid liquid, and Solar Drops. - approx. £14.00 Replace your

UVB fluorescent tube if you have one if you don't have one buy one as they are essential! get a 10 rating one depending on the

size of the vivarium you may need 2. _ you can get a controller which does two. The animals need to be very close to the UVB tube

so make sure you put horizontal moss climbing vines close to the light. Most makes don’t get very hot and are usually cool enough

not to cause burns. You don’t need load of plants not overdo to much leaves no more than 50 p.c. The light should be on for a

minimum of twelve hours daily.

Do not overdose the animal. The D3 vitamins necessary for calcium uptake into the bones is mostly biologically manufactured by

light of the correct wavelength just under the animals skin hence the need for the UVB light tube(s).

Food supplements are essential and should be given every feed, get the one with at least 40 pc calcium read the ingredients

don’t be persuaded by a picture of a chameleon on the container! Vitamins are much less important and if your feeder insects are

gut loaded with suitable food the animal will get enough vitamins.

 

[jessica]

Like said before, a vet is the best idea.

You can put plastic wrap on the back and sides to help hold in the moisture and help up your humidity during the dry months.

I wish the best to your lil guy! Keep us posted

 

[kinyonga]

Newbie..."This should be injected directly into its bone providing the animal is large enough."...I would be interested in the article you got this from. I've been keeping chameleons for over 20 years and as far as I know you can't inject it into the bones. You inject it into the muscle and then its taken up by the body and eventually should end up in the bone.

You said..."it will soon return because you need to treat the underlining cause -shade, PH. compact soil overhanging tree etc."...please explain what you mean by these things needing to be corrected. (You are right that the husbandry has to be corrected as well as bringing the calcium levels back into line or it will come back.)

You said..."You don’t need load of plants not overdo to much leaves"...most people recommend lots of plants being in the cage....as long as the chameleon can get into the UVB it should regulate its own exposure to it.

Here are some good sites for you to read about chameleons...
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://web.archive.org/web/20060502...rnals.com/vet/index.php?show=5.Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20060421.../index.php?show=6.Vitamin.D3.and.Calcium.html
http://chameleonnews.com/?page=article&id=102
http://adcham.com/
http://raisingkittytheveiledchameleon.blogspot.com/

 

[coolmoon]

I have a male that I got through MBD and some may not agree but it worked.

First, I would put netting or towels about half way down across the length of the cage to catch him if he falls. Paperclips will work to hold it in place if you have a screen cage. You can find netting at most craft stores.

Definately get a UVB light, if you can't get one local lll reptiles is a good place.

You need multivitamin, liquid calcium which you should be able to get from a vet even if they don't treat chams or pure calcium if you can't get it, calcium w/d3 and a couple of syringes without needles. You should be able to get them from the vet or a pharmacy, just explain what you need them for. One is for water and one for the liquid calcium if you use that.

I would feed 4 crickets a day unless he will eat more on his own. Always try to get him to eat and drink on his own first. You may want to try cup feeding first and see if he will eat that way. I use a small plastic dish in the cage and I take the hopper legs off the crickets. Use vine to secure it in a spot that is easy access for your cham.

If you have to force feed, gently force the cham's mouth open just enough to get a cricket in. If he will open on his own great if not I put mine in my lap while doing this its easier unless you have someone to help you. I pull gently down on the dewlap and use my fingernail to open his mouth. I have heard a guitar pick would work. He may spit the cricket out but I just put it back in. After feeding I would use a syringe to give water. Try holding him in your hand with his head facing up and place a drop on his lips. It may take a few to get him to try it but it may work. If not you will have to force a small amount in the same as feeding. Be careful to not give too much at once and give him time to swallow. Every day try to get him to do it on his own first. I used calcium with d3 3 times a month, vitamins 2 times a month and pure calcium every day except when I used d3 or vitamin. I put it on 2 cricket only per day very lightly.

Chamelisa who is a member here also works with sick chams, you can try sending her a private message and see if she has any tips for you. Good luck I hope your cham makes it.

 

[newbie]

The views are purely mine obtained from my experiences from keeping these creatures they are not from articles. I am not advocating avoiding going to a vet for treatment if you can afford to, but cautionary advise and suggesting alternative approach of using limited funds to best use. As for purchasing medicines and supplements (other than general ones like flea powder) from a vet without the formal consultation - I'd be very surprised if most practices would allow it! certainly not here in the U.K. of course, you are free to disagree with my opinion if you wish. I offered a more practical solution than just run to the vet. As for the inaccuracy regarding injecting directly into the bone, I was talking not as a learned scientist addressing other scientists or writing a paper but in layman’s terms to someone who simply wants to know what best to do for his/her pet, but feel the small inaccuracy did not distract from the point being made. The analogy with gardening was simply included in an attempt to make a point clearer, that is to not only treat the symptom (MBD==moss) but also the cause (poor housekeeping==trees dripping etc.) and I hope that it was.

 

[newbie]

I just reread what the original poster said regarding his sick chameleon. I see that the animal is sprayed regularly in an attempt to get it to drink. I used to do like-wise but have cut-out spraying now and the animals are much happy for it.
Get a dripper or make one yourself from a plastic jar and tube. A small valve can easily be got drip water at a rate of a drop every 5 seconds into a container at the bottom set it to drip onto leaves. Turn on for 1 hour -a-day. Never directly spray your animal. If you need to mist do it for no more than a few squirts and away from the animal the intention is to add water to the air only. Get a hydrometer does not have to be fancy, mount it where can easily be seen but not over the water. Ensure the humidity is 50-60 percent. To increase humidity consider live plants ficus is a good choice. If it's around 50 or under turn on the dripper. If its over 60 for a while that’s OK but if it's in the 70 or greater you need to ventilate the enclosure. Try to avoid things becoming dripping wet except obviously under the dripper.
Humidity tends to increase at lower temperatures I.e. the morning then decrease during the day with the increasing temperature. The lighting should encourage him to feed and drink. The temperature should be 32C at the top near the basking area and will decrease as you move downwards and will naturally be several degrees cooler near the bottom. Night temperatures want to be no lower than 23 Celsius but need to be about 8 degrees Celsius less than during the day-time. DO NOT force feed unless it's absolutely necessary- your animal will get too stressed the animal will eat under the right conditions and while the animal has enough strength don't force feed. Also the animal is attracted by pray moving so restricting this is not a good idea put plenty of live moving food inside the enclosure and don't keep watching him. Do what I said in my previous post on this subject and give feedback in a weeks time. Note also that the animal will get water from the live food and some animal drink far less than others! Also disabling the insects causes stress to them and the insects become less palatable they create toxins, for that reason do not stress your feeder insects.
I'm prepared for a stream of people disagreeing as everywhere I've read people are telling other people to have a daily spraying regime and to drench everything.

 

[Carlton]

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Screen, I'm not sure what the dimensions are, but not too big for my chameleon..
Lighting - Either petzilla or something along those lines, they only carry one kind in Alaska
Temperature - His temp ranges from 70 on one side to about 90 on the other, that's in the day and night time
Humidity - humidity has been dropping lately because of the stinkin' winters here, usually from 25% to 40%.. again, I know, low, but I've been trying like crazy to get it better..
Plants - no live plants
Placement - low traffic, end of my bed in my room
Location - Alaska

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - veiled, boy, around 9 or 10 months old
Handling - never
Feeding - crickets, with gutload.
Supplements - I have a calcium supplement I obivously wasn't using enough
Watering - I mist a whole lot, I have a dripper as well as I leave a bowl of water in the bottom of his cage which helps with humidity
Fecal Description - hasn't had any lately, but usually little and white.. I don't know the consistency
Story - no idea, I got him from a pet store
Current Problem - He has MBD

I live in Alaska and obviously haven't been taking the best care of my chameleon if he got MBD. It's kind of advanced I would say from looking at pictures of others who have said it's advanced. He isn't eating at all anymore and I can't get him to drink. There are no reptile vets here in Alaska and I called the vets around my town who said they wouldn't know what to do with a chameleon if I brought it in, so there wasn't a point in stressing him out. He hasn't falled off anything yet but has come close a few times, I've been there to catch him and help him back up most of the time. I want him to not suffer, but I don't know what to do for him. He refuses to eat from my hand (or any tweezers, for that matter) and hates it when I spray him or try to get him to drink water. I've been soaking crickets in calcium spray and squishing them a little so they won't move and putting them right in front of him and he just looks the other way.

Any suggessions?

There's a lot you can do without a herp vet.

He's not eating because he's dehydrated, weak from vitamin mineral deficiencies, no energy. First, help him rehydrate. Most chams hate being misted directly especially if you use cold water. Use warm to hot, and spray the cage and foliage around him gently for a longer period. Watch him. He may start reflexive swallowing. Often, once a cham starts swallowing you can gently drip warm water over their head and they'll start licking and swallowing the water as it drips down onto their lips. If you aren't using any foliage that part of the trouble. No surfaces to hold droplets for him to drink from or to evaporate into the cage. A dripper can surely help, but not all chams will use them. In a pinch you can always put him on a low plant or other perch in your shower, turn the showerhead to hit the wall and bounce the spray onto the cham, set it at luke warm and leave him in there for 20 minutes. To avoid a fall, put towels under the plant. If you can get him to gape at all (try blocking his nostrils with your fingers), try some Pedialyte from a grocery store. You can add a little bit of diluted insect guts. Ask any vet or pharmacy for a small plastic needleless syringe.

The most likely reason for the MBD is lack of correct lighting and possibly lack of vitamin D3. I didn't see any mention of a vitamin dust or whether your calcium dust contains it. Chams under indoor lighting require some dietary D3. Dusting includes 3 types: calcium without D3, calcium with D3 given occasionall, and a herp vitamin given once a month to 6 weeks. But, dusting should only fill in the gaps in your insect gutloading.

Describe your gutload ingredients. Commercial types tend to be poor. You can feed your feeders much better by providing them with fresh dark leafy greens, chunks of fruit, fortified cereal grains such as Total, some (not too much) flake fish food, and bee pollen.

Where are you in AK? I live in rural SE AK. There is a pet shop in Juneau that can get or may have in stock ReptiSun or ReptiGlo fluorescent bulbs (you want the linear tubes, not compact coil fluorescents), so you can get them or order them. You will need to get it shipped regardless, but Juneau might be quicker initially than the south 48. Lots of herp supplies can send you bulbs. The Wee Fishie Shoppe's toll free phone is 1-800-478-0728.

The cage temps...are they the same day and night? Chams need at least a 10 degree temp drop at night...no visible light at night. Chams do see full color and possibly color ranges humans don't see. If your room gets down below 50F at night maybe a small blue heat spot at the most.

To maintain your cage humidity over time, consider live plants. The surfaces hold moisture, provide cover, help the cham thermoregulate, and through transpiration help raise the humidity passively. IMHO a dripper won't raise the cage humidity much on its own (been there tried that). Other ways to raise humidity include hanging plastic sheeting on back and/or sides of the cage, using a room humidifier aimed right at the cage. So called "cool mist" or ultrasonic humidifiers are great as they produce a fine fog that condenses on cage surfaces and won't cook your cham like a steam vaporizer can.

Hope this helps!

 

[Carlton]

Oh, I meant to suggest another way to feed...try putting a plastic storage box in the cage with a perch down to the rim, and put a piece of fruit and a few feeders in it. They will move around and attract his attention. Not too many at once or he'll just sit there and stare at them. If he can't use his tongue make sure he can climb close to the insects. The bugs won't escape or hide, and he can hunt on his own time.

 

[Carlton]

I just reread what the original poster said regarding his sick chameleon. I see that the animal is sprayed regularly in an attempt to get it to drink. I used to do like-wise but have cut-out spraying now and the animals are much happy for it.
I'm prepared for a stream of people disagreeing as everywhere I've read people are telling other people to have a daily spraying regime and to drench everything.

Whether someone sprays the cage or not really depends on their particular climate where the cage is kept and whether it is screen sided or solid sided. Most keepers in the USA use all or partially screened cages for the arboreal species. In colder climates with forced air heating the cham's cage can really dry out quickly. A dripper alone just won't be enough. Spraying the foliage (not the cham as you said) provides general humidity through evaporation. Some places I've kept chams required daily heavy spraying just to reach a cage humidity of 40% for a short time. I've had to use ultrasonic humidifiers, daily misting, automatic misting systems on timers, and direct individual watering from a syringe to keep some of my chams hydrated. The point I think you were making is to measure the air humidity and adjust your technique to suit it.

Not all chams drink from drippers reliably, or they may stop using one over time. I know from experience and lost a beautiful veiled cham because I assumed he was drinking from a dripper daily. If your cham uses the dripper great. If not, you'll need to provide drinking water some other way. You are right in that you don't want the cage to sit completely soaked 24/7. It does need to dry out somewhat during the day to prevent mold and fungus.