Multiple Chameleons in a greenhouse setting

[dlaunde]

Hey all,

As my fiancee and I get ready to move into our first house in the fall, we definitely want to put aside money to build a small greenhouse (probably 10x10 or 10x15) that will be properly heated even during the winter months. Our dream is to keep multiple chameleons within the greenhouse free range style (with necessary basking spots and UV lights for gloomy winter days).

Besides setup and all that, the initial question is can we safely keep multiple chameleons in such a big space? Currently we have a one year old Panther but would want to add at least a Veiled and possible another Panther. With that much space, would each chameleon find their own territory and not bother the others or would we need to section off areas with chicken wire to keep them from interacting?

Thanks!

 

[Extensionofgreen]

You'd need seperate areas, unless you were keeping something like melleri, which would still require diligent observation. A male a couple of females might be possible, but of a single species only.

 

[Alexander1]

Even if you devide the green house, still bad ass. Step into a jungle to meditate or have coffee, too dope

 

[joshuadh2310]

If you have a panther already i think it would be cool if you built a 10x10 and got another panther and you just separate it in two enclosures and you could free range two 10x5. I'd say eat t to where they can't really see each other though. If you had a boy you could get a girl and vid versa or two boys if you never have a thought of mating them.

 

[dlaunde]

So say if we decided to keep our current Panther indoors and when we do the greenhouse, only stock it with a single species that can get along together just fine (males only...don't want to worry about breeding or females, no offense to them at all!)...what species would be perfect for this?

I forget the user, but the person who built the giant indoor vivarium is what inspired us to do the greenhouse when we move in. The idea of just being able to walk in and let the chameleons have free range over the entire enclosure. Our plan would be to actually do a mini forest so instead of plants on a bench we would build boxes on the ground and grow trees from the ground up (nothing huge obviously). So it would be a true walk in forest.

 

[Extensionofgreen]

Males of all species will be territorial, at least during breeding seasons and are never a good idea to house together. Chameleons don't create and keep a finite amount of space as a territory. Their territory changes, when they breach the margins of the area they currently live in. They are slow moving and tend to stay in small areas, when the resources are plentiful, but they will wander to seek mates, out of curiosity, or to seek other gradients, within their habitats. Each species and even the individual is different ragarding whether the keep an internal map of their territory and utilize familiar routes and areas. In captivity, the areas we provide are small, so they easily return to the same basking spots and roosts, but in nature, basking areas change throughout the day and they are unlikely to make a conscious choice to return to one area for the sake of familiarity.

I may be the user with the giant indoor vivarium, I'm not sure. If I am, you will find it's photos and specifications under the key word search for "Epic parsonii". My animals are a pair and have a visual/soft physical barrier between them. I did house a juvenile pair together, but that may or may not have been a successful arrangement, as the animals matured.

It's possible that in a large enough area, 2 males of more docile and small species might avoid one another, but there is always the risk, one day they won't and will maul one another, or you will have one animal decline from living, unnoticed in constant submission, as the clues can be subtle.
Panthers and veileds are among the least tolerant of neighbors you will find.

 

[dlaunde]

Thanks!

Yours is in fact the vivarium I was referring to. I absolutely LOVE it.

I did not know you have a soft barrier between them. I suppose if I did a simple greenhouse with two sides and a walkway down the middle, something as simple as chicken wire from top to bottom with a simple screen door to enter either "enclosure" would work?

Or does an actual walkway along with keeping the trees inside trimmed so they never cross and touch either side work? Will a chameleon become curious enough to walk along the ground to explore new territory or will it only keep to where the branches of the trees/plants go?

 

[AZChamFan]

Personally if I was going to all the effort of building a greenhouse and I didn't want to involve females, my top choice would be a single magnificent male Parson's. If there's any chameleon that justifies an entire greenhouse to itself that's it!!!

 

[Extensionofgreen]

Chameleons can and will do whatever it is you wouldn't want or expect them to do.
If there is an area they should not be in, unless it is sufficiently barricaded, rest assured, you will find the chameleon there at some point. They absolutely will drop to the ground, if they are so inspired and battling a conspecific or exploring a new area is all the inspiration they will need.
I'm not trying to sound flippantly black and white on the matter and I am not saying these things, because those are the "rules"; it is the collective experience of many, many keepers, and having my own veiled and seeing his behavior, as well as having had melleri, parsons, jacksons, and other species over the years, it is obvious that most of the time they are intolerable of one another, especially 2 males. 10x10 is not as much space as we perceive it to be, when you have animals as territorial and active as veileds and panthers, a fight is inevitable. The situation isn't just bad with males, a male will force himself upon a female or try to relentlessly and cause her much stress and eventual death. Some species do better in pairs, given enough space, as in they aren't violent or relentless in their amorous pursuits, but observation is key and every animal is an individual. Physical barriers may not be enough, as just seeing another chameleon can cause stress.

I am glad that you are inspired by my build and am flattered that it has been so well received.

 

[joshuadh2310]

Chameleons can and will do whatever it is you wouldn't want or expect them to do.
If there is an area they should not be in, unless it is sufficiently barricaded, rest assured, you will find the chameleon there at some point. They absolutely will drop to the ground, if they are so inspired and battling a conspecific or exploring a new area is all the inspiration they will need.
I'm not trying to sound flippantly black and white on the matter and I am not saying these things, because those are the "rules"; it is the collective experience of many, many keepers, and having my own veiled and seeing his behavior, as well as having had melleri, parsons, jacksons, and other species over the years, it is obvious that most of the time they are intolerable of one another, especially 2 males. 10x10 is not as much space as we perceive it to be, when you have animals as territorial and active as veileds and panthers, a fight is inevitable. The situation isn't just bad with males, a male will force himself upon a female or try to relentlessly and cause her much stress and eventual death. Some species do better in pairs, given enough space, as in they aren't violent or relentless in their amorous pursuits, but observation is key and every animal is an individual. Physical barriers may not be enough, as just seeing another chameleon can cause stress.

I am glad that you are inspired by my build and am flattered that it is been so well received.

very well said! i do think the OP should not rush into this and really weight out there options as they do seem to have many right now.

 

[Andee]

I agree a 10x10 is a really good size for a single Parsons, and they tend to do really good in a controlled green house environment.

 

[Extensionofgreen]

the counteract to a greenhouse being great for parsonii is that are among the least active species and you won't see them utilize the space as much as a panther or veiled, though they sure do deserve and appreciate it.

 

[Andee]

Well I would only recommend a panther if it was like Ryker when Ryker could see. Veileds definitely. Ryker needed a huge cage and would have used and abused a 10x10. Also a mellers would do well in that space.

 

[jpowell86]

the counteract to a greenhouse being great for parsonii is that are among the least active species and you won't see them utilize the space as much as a panther or veiled, though they sure do deserve and appreciate it.

I was just thinking...clearly none of these people have owned a parsonii. A 10x10 area for a parsonii is plenty generous. Actually a waste of space for one parsonii in IMO. Unless it serves other purposes like just being an awesome planted area or a consistent warm area for growing your insects.

 

[Andee]

I have never have a parson's for sure, but if I had a greenhouse area for a parson's I would likely have two in it and keep it sectioned off. Would a mellers use it? I always view them as being active.

 

[AZChamFan]

I have never have a parson's for sure, but if I had a greenhouse area for a parson's I would likely have two in it and keep it sectioned off. Would a mellers use it? I always view them as being active.

Agreed! I have never owned a parson's either, but I am well aware of their docile nature and it would still be my first choice! I wouldn't be doing it with expectations of a lot of action! Like you mentioned Andee I think meller's would also be fantastic and would be my very close second choice! Nothing against panthers or veileds but I couldn't help feeling I had a wasted opportunity if I kept one of those species in the greenhouse when they can so easily be kept in an ordinary enclosure inside the house. Obviously this will come down to personal preference of the OP, but one thing I would not do is attempt to keep two males of any species in the same greenhouse for the very reasons Extensionofgreen mentioned.

 

[jpowell86]

I have never have a parson's for sure, but if I had a greenhouse area for a parson's I would likely have two in it and keep it sectioned off. Would a mellers use it? I always view them as being active.

If you give a melleri a 40x40 area..they will use every bit of it. That is what I love about melleri so much. They are huge but active. I wasn't being a turd in my other comment, I just realize most haven't kept them and don't realize that they just basically sit there all day. I love my parsonii, but they are not the most entertaining of chameleons. They are regal in their own way. But yes, a 10x10 could house two no problem when sectioned off correctly.

 

[Andee]

turd XD that's an interesting description XD, I would never describe you that way XD. Meller's are amazing. And they usually thrive in a green house environment as long as it is controlled for what they need as far as humidity and temps right?

 

[AZChamFan]

turd XD that's an interesting description XD, I would never describe you that way XD. Meller's are amazing. And they usually thrive in a green house environment as long as it is controlled for what they need as far as humidity and temps right?

And wouldn't they possibly satisfy the OP's desire to have more than one cham in their greenhouse without the need for barriers? Or am I thinking wrong?!!!

Oh never mind - the OP doesn't want females!

 

[Andee]

Well and even if you do a colony of meller's you have to be very aware of any fights between adults who have been together a while. The females can even be severely territorial. And I am not sure, @jpowell86, aren't the subspecies you are using in the colony not being imported at the moment?