ColorCham427
Avid Member
I'd say he's mixed with Nosy Be, Ambanja, and Ambilobe... but how am I suppose to know
My Ambanja
- Thread starter Paul R
- Start date
chambabysitter1
New Member
*ahem* I'm a little surprised by all of you!
Paul came on here and was hoping for people to like his chameleon, which he obviously does- and I for one think he couldn't be any more stunning!
We weren't being asked about his locale, and I highly doubt anything you say could make him think any differently about his handsome boy- so why try to convince him of anything? So you can be right? So you could be the one to catch the 'mutt'? Sure, his colors are peculiar- and once in a while people slip up, but it would have been nice if one person could have mentioned it, and then we could have moved on- several posts were not necessary.
I thought it was very rude of all of you.
@Paul R- Is he still young? I hope to see more pictures, if that red gets any brighter he'll be one heck of a looker someday!
I think you are misinterpreting everything you just read. Chameleon Company has experience with many locales, and because of this they can easier recognize locales, seeing hundreds of babies over time. It seems he was just trying to offer some advice.
He didn't ask about the locale, but Chameleon Company was nice enough to try to notify him that he may be of mixed lineage. Then they discussed it like adults.
I think attacking him saying, so he can be right, is pretty out of line, and rude considering how you misinterpreted the situation.
yoza717
New Member
Very nice looking Cham, no matter what locale.
I am in the same boat with one of my males. I am not to familiar with what to look for in a pure Ambanja male. I have looked at several breeders websites and Ambanja/Ambilobe locales vary quite a bit, so it is very confusing to us novice keepers.
Any tips on how to tell pure lines versus mix locales would be very much appreciated
I am in the same boat with one of my males. I am not to familiar with what to look for in a pure Ambanja male. I have looked at several breeders websites and Ambanja/Ambilobe locales vary quite a bit, so it is very confusing to us novice keepers.
Any tips on how to tell pure lines versus mix locales would be very much appreciated
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
As already pointed out, you do miss the point .... by a Minnesota mile. Once posted and labeled as an "Ambanja" male, Paul and others can say all they want about how cute he is, well maintained he is, etc. But what you miss is that this is a public forum about chameleons, and many who are less familiar, or less certain, about Locales may look at that and possibly assume to have just learned that Ambanjas can look a whole lot different than they thought if it goes unchallenged ! To many with even modest experience, their skepticism is well placed, but they also did not feel certain enough to speak up. I do not suffer such timidity ... thank you .. thank you
If the doubts about its Locale purity go without voice, then it would seem that the most frequently read chameleon forum in the world (educated guess Brad ?) has now expanded the natural history and phenotype of the Ambanja Locale because we do not want to hurt someone's feelings ? I would dare to guess that a few who read here and were short on experience now know a bit more about how folks can get snookered on Locales. With all due respect, Paul was a volunteer
And it appears to be a marvelously maintained animal, which certainly was no accident. Husbandry very well done !
viaje
New Member
Chameleon Company, I never said that there was something wrong with letting him know that it was mixed lineage, just that I didn't feel that dwelling on it was important- and that just one post would have gotten the point across, since the thread wasn't asking "is this an ambanja?"
I didn't mean to be rude, apparently I was.
I didn't mean to be rude, apparently I was.
And "smugglers" are to be trusted?
Paul, with all due respect, you are relying on the "facts" that are assumptions at best, as you are having to take the word of others. Just the statement that you "only get Ambanja on the market" defies what many of us who are involved in the legal export know about how things come out of Madagascar. Not even the legal exporters, much less the "smugglers", are so guaranteed meticulous in what they send. If you get what you are supposed to 75% of the time you are to count your blessings.
Maybe here in the States enough serious folks in the market have been had enough times by mislabeled females, and even males now, to know that all too often the word of many sellers isn't worth the paper its written on.
So, despite all the assurances, the boat that only leaves the Ambanja dock, etc., you have a mixed locale critter. Very healthy, etc., but not what it was supposed to be.
With all due respect, i know the smugglers and what they can get!!
He is Ambanja, i can assure you that. Take a look on the net, 90% of Ambanjas show blue and red like mine, but even with that in mind, there is huge variation in batches, some of his brother are green, some blue, red, brown, orange.... the list is endless!! I have seen all of my breeders stock and they are all ambanja and show a huge amount of colour variation!!
Ill ask my breeder and post pics of his brothers, i wonder what people will call the other? Tamatave? Ambilobe? Nosy Be?
*ahem* I'm a little surprised by all of you!
Paul came on here and was hoping for people to like his chameleon, which he obviously does- and I for one think he couldn't be any more stunning!
We weren't being asked about his locale, and I highly doubt anything you say could make him think any differently about his handsome boy- so why try to convince him of anything? So you can be right? So you could be the one to catch the 'mutt'? Sure, his colors are peculiar- and once in a while people slip up, but it would have been nice if one person could have mentioned it, and then we could have moved on- several posts were not necessary.
I thought it was very rude of all of you.
@Paul R- Is he still young? I hope to see more pictures, if that red gets any brighter he'll be one heck of a looker someday!
Thank you for your positive comment, much appreciated.
He is only 5 months old and already so much colour. Ill post more pics of him going yellow and slightly orange
If i put a pic up of him yellow and orange will he then be accused of being an Ambilobe???
really people panthers can not only be graded on colourThanks again for you positive comment
As already pointed out, you do miss the point .... by a Minnesota mile. Once posted and labeled as an "Ambanja" male, Paul and others can say all they want about how cute he is, well maintained he is, etc. But what you miss is that this is a public forum about chameleons, and many who are less familiar, or less certain, about Locales may look at that and possibly assume to have just learned that Ambanjas can look a whole lot different than they thought if it goes unchallenged ! To many with even modest experience, their skepticism is well placed, but they also did not feel certain enough to speak up. I do not suffer such timidity ... thank you .. thank you
With all due respect, Paul was a volunteer
Ok a question! Then how is an Ambanja "supposed" to look?
No panther can be graded, there are the "said" colour variations but what about intermediate species that bridge two locales together. I really dont care about what people say, In S.A. we get Ambanja. The breeder told me, thae smugglers know, the colours match!
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Paul,
Having been to Ambanja myself and having seen numerous pure and hybrid panther chameleons over the years, I have to say that unfortunately Jim is correct on this one, Paul. Your panther, although in excellent health, is not a pure Ambanja. If this is in fact what all "Ambanjas" in South Africa look like, then the entire line is tainted. I suspect that a female Nosy Be was picked up along the way home (Nosy Be is quite close to Ambanja) and then sold as an Ambanja where it was bred into the line. While you may think that 90% of the photos online show animals that look the same, you either are not looking at pure Ambanja types or don't recognize some of the more subtle differences.
Sorry,
Chris
Having been to Ambanja myself and having seen numerous pure and hybrid panther chameleons over the years, I have to say that unfortunately Jim is correct on this one, Paul. Your panther, although in excellent health, is not a pure Ambanja. If this is in fact what all "Ambanjas" in South Africa look like, then the entire line is tainted. I suspect that a female Nosy Be was picked up along the way home (Nosy Be is quite close to Ambanja) and then sold as an Ambanja where it was bred into the line. While you may think that 90% of the photos online show animals that look the same, you either are not looking at pure Ambanja types or don't recognize some of the more subtle differences.
Sorry,
Chris
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
Paul,
I know that there is an adage that if you repeat something often enough, it becomes the truth.
Tell you what, we have a new satellite locale ... the "South African Ambanja".
I concur Chris. Nosy Be was my first guess, an educated one, but with all things hybrid, only The Shadow, and the smuggler, would know.
I know that there is an adage that if you repeat something often enough, it becomes the truth.
Tell you what, we have a new satellite locale ... the "South African Ambanja".
I concur Chris. Nosy Be was my first guess, an educated one, but with all things hybrid, only The Shadow, and the smuggler
, would know.
desultadox
Established Member
And now you have to decide whether or not you're OK with breeding a mixed Panther. As a non-breeder though, he is a good-looking specimen, prettier than a lot purebred Ambanjas in a lot of ways.
reyesjoshuacruz
Established Member
Smugglers essentially lie to make money, thats a fact.
money talks my SA friends, and money is more than enough motivation to pass a nosy fem as a amb.
There is no honor in smuggling, if you think just because you've met them or someone they know, you wont get lied to.....think again.
Dont put it passed someone that you know already lied to lie again, it only gets easier with time, esp when all you see is money signs.
chris your signature looks malnourished
money talks my SA friends, and money is more than enough motivation to pass a nosy fem as a amb.
There is no honor in smuggling, if you think just because you've met them or someone they know, you wont get lied to.....think again.
Dont put it passed someone that you know already lied to lie again, it only gets easier with time, esp when all you see is money signs.
chris your signature looks malnourished
Jerm
Avid Member
As strictly an Ambanja breeder, I also agree with Jim. I have not witnessed one showing these colors in the past. Very healthy looking cham. though, keep up the good work.
Im not saying that mixed locales are bad or worthless, in fact there are some amazing colorations and unique animals that come from mixing morphs, we just want to make sure that people know what they have and how to label juveniles for future sales. It is very important to let people know what they are purchasing.
Im not saying that mixed locales are bad or worthless, in fact there are some amazing colorations and unique animals that come from mixing morphs, we just want to make sure that people know what they have and how to label juveniles for future sales. It is very important to let people know what they are purchasing.
to all who disagree that he is Ambanja!!!!!!!!!
How is Ambanja "supposed" to look?????? Go on the net and actually take a look at Ambanja panthers, All is see is blue, green and red!!!!! Maybe only yours are "dull" coloured (mine being brighter). And as for that comment about "South African Ambanja's" you wont win this dispute with primary school humor!!!!!!
How do you explain the huge amount of colour variation in a single batch?????
Ill post pics of Ambanja males that look identical to mine with references!!! Just check the book "chameleons" by Ferguson, Kalisch etc.....
How is Ambanja "supposed" to look?????? Go on the net and actually take a look at Ambanja panthers, All is see is blue, green and red!!!!! Maybe only yours are "dull" coloured (mine being brighter). And as for that comment about "South African Ambanja's" you wont win this dispute with primary school humor!!!!!!
How do you explain the huge amount of colour variation in a single batch?????
Ill post pics of Ambanja males that look identical to mine with references!!! Just check the book "chameleons" by Ferguson, Kalisch etc.....
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
Paul,
No doubt you see things differently than some of us To all chameleon owners out there, the chameleon you own can be whatever you want it to be in your eyes. As I have said many times in other threads, the problem lies in how much effort you have to make to convince others as to its identity. When you have an animal that gets a "doesn't look like any that I ever saw" from many who have considerable experience with the Locale claimed, what is the point of arguing ? It still isn't going to "look like any Ambanja that I ever saw".
In my limited experience, I have probably only handled about 500 WC male Ambanjas. And probably another 500 hatched from WC imported females, presumably pedigree. But if I hatched out one from a WC female that looked like yours, I would reject it as having been WB, and label it as a breeding that crossed locales while in transit.
Paul, in answer to "how is an Ambanja supposed to look", you have a computer to do you own research. While there will be others out there offering pedigree Ambanjas that are not pedigree, I think that you can find enough photos to get a consensus about what the phenotype is.
No doubt you see things differently than some of us
To all chameleon owners out there, the chameleon you own can be whatever you want it to be in your eyes. As I have said many times in other threads, the problem lies in how much effort you have to make to convince others as to its identity. When you have an animal that gets a "doesn't look like any that I ever saw" from many who have considerable experience with the Locale claimed, what is the point of arguing ? It still isn't going to "look like any Ambanja that I ever saw". In my limited experience, I have probably only handled about 500 WC male Ambanjas. And probably another 500 hatched from WC imported females, presumably pedigree. But if I hatched out one from a WC female that looked like yours, I would reject it as having been WB, and label it as a breeding that crossed locales while in transit.
Paul, in answer to "how is an Ambanja supposed to look", you have a computer to do you own research. While there will be others out there offering pedigree Ambanjas that are not pedigree, I think that you can find enough photos to get a consensus about what the phenotype is.
Kent67
Retired Moderator
I recommend looking for photos of chameleons that were taken IN Ambanja, Madagascar. There are plenty of photos of 1st and 2nd generation captive panthers labeled as Ambanja that look nothing like wild chameleons near that town. For instance, these photos were taken by one of the exporters in Madagascar:
http://www.adcham.com/images/images-species/F.pardalisAmbanja/FurciferPardalisAmbanjaM2.JPG
http://www.adcham.com/images/images-species/F.pardalisAmbanja/FurciferPardalisAmbanjaM3.JPG
http://www.adcham.com/images/images-species/F.pardalisAmbanja/FurciferPardalisAmbanjaM4.JPG
http://www.adcham.com/images/images-species/F.pardalisAmbanja/FurciferPardalisAmbanjaM5.JPG
http://www.adcham.com/images/images-species/F.pardalisAmbanja/FurciferPardalisAmbanjaMaleComb
The first two photos from this gallery were also taken in Ambanja, Madagascar.
http://www.kamaeleoner.dk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=72&Itemid=92
http://www.adcham.com/images/images-species/F.pardalisAmbanja/FurciferPardalisAmbanjaM2.JPG
http://www.adcham.com/images/images-species/F.pardalisAmbanja/FurciferPardalisAmbanjaM3.JPG
http://www.adcham.com/images/images-species/F.pardalisAmbanja/FurciferPardalisAmbanjaM4.JPG
http://www.adcham.com/images/images-species/F.pardalisAmbanja/FurciferPardalisAmbanjaM5.JPG
http://www.adcham.com/images/images-species/F.pardalisAmbanja/FurciferPardalisAmbanjaMaleComb
The first two photos from this gallery were also taken in Ambanja, Madagascar.
http://www.kamaeleoner.dk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=72&Itemid=92
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Paul,
Again, the problem is you are not experienced enough to see the more subtle indicators that it is not an Ambanja. You're simply looking at the presence/absence of very basic colors, not the distribution of colors, pattern and different shades of blues, etc., that help more experienced individuals differentiate panther locales.
I took these photos in Ambanja:
I'm sorry, your animal is a hybrid, not a pure Ambanja.
Chris
Again, the problem is you are not experienced enough to see the more subtle indicators that it is not an Ambanja. You're simply looking at the presence/absence of very basic colors, not the distribution of colors, pattern and different shades of blues, etc., that help more experienced individuals differentiate panther locales.
I took these photos in Ambanja:
I'm sorry, your animal is a hybrid, not a pure Ambanja.
Chris
eisentrauti
Avid Member
Why aren't you satiesfied with the animals which live in your country ? I mean damaranum, thamnobates or pumilum are just gorgeous !
That some good links, thank you for that!!!!
Once again, there is my point of the huge variation seen in Ambanja's and panthers for that matter.
In S.A. we do not have access to panthers as freely as the USA or Europe, my point is that both the male and female are from Ambanja and they have been inbred for 2 generations because we can not get any other panthers in this country so where is the mixing of locales????
Sorry i post this with your quote by once again thathe great links
Why aren't you satiesfied with the animals which live in your country ? I mean damaranum, thamnobates or pumilum are just gorgeous !
Because its illegal to keep them in my province, if i lived in Kwazulu Natal its legal. Because i can catch them and not legally keep them i lost interest in them
We have alot of endemic chameleons that are found in very restricted areas and therefore the law is extremely strict in my province, in some provinces along the coast it is even illegal to keep exotic animals nevermind indigenous ones
Its a good thing that they are protected as alot of people still keep them as pets after catching them in the wild.As i have mentioned in a previous thread, i have caught a chameleon species that is not described. It is a completely new species or atleast a subspecies that shows alot of variation
