My Veiled Cham is really weak.

[larryecm]

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Veiled, female, about 7-8 months. 6 Months
• Handling - Not often, she won't let me.
• Feeding - Crickets, 10 a day, once daily. Gut loading using Flucker's Calcium Enriched Cricket Food. Tried various worms, she won't eat them.
• Supplements - Dusting with Fluckers Calcium with D3, twice weekly.
• Watering - I was using a manual spray body, spraying for 2-3 minutes 3 times a day. I now have an automated Mistking. Yes, she used to always drink at least 1-2 times a day
• Fecal Description - Dark Brown, with whitish/yellow urate. Although, no bowl movements in probably a week.
• History - Was very healthy acting until about 1-2 weeks ago.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - She was in a 20g aquarium until recently, I now have her in a DragonStrand Large Atrium mesh enclosure. 46w x 40" tall x 24" deep
• Lighting - lights on 12 hours per day. I did have a 75w heat lamp and a UVB bulb. I now have 2 HO T5 Arcadia 6% lights, and 150w heat bulb
• Temperature - Cage floor is around 72, basking spot is 85. Lowest overnight is 66-67 degrees. I measure using a laser infrared thermometer.
• Humidity - On average 50-60% measured with a humidity gauge. Controlled using a household humidifier, and frequent mistings (see above)
• Plants - I was using plastic, but now I am using live plants. All are safe per a listing of safe plants I found on this forum.
• Placement - In my home office, no fans, air vent below her but it doesn't blow directly on the cage. Top of cage is about 80" above ground
• Location - Western North Carolina, US

Current Problem - While in the 20g tank, she started showing gravid colors and acting like she might be gravid, so I put her in a laying bin. She also looked like she was gaining some weight. The laying bin is a 24" wide trashcan, with 20" deep sand/organic soil mixture. She had stopped eating. After about 4 days, she didn't really show signs of digging, and I had my new enclosure set-up, so I moved her into it. While in the laying bin, she ate 3 crickets total, and was drinking a little. I noticed she was having trouble hanging onto the branches and staying stable. So I moved her back to the laying bin. Now she mostly lays in the sand, and doesn't move often at all. She seems very weak, and unable to support her body weight with her legs, and she cannot climb. From a suggestion by a another forum member, I started giving her a little Insure today using an eye dropper. She has drank a little and her colors have improved. I also tried giving her a warm shower last night, but she didn't drink at all.

The best of my knowledge, I've done everything correctly. I've read and read and read, so not sure what's wrong. Any assistance or advice would be appreciated.

 

[larryecm]

Let me add - The light in on the enclosure photo was just there for the photo - it's my old light for my 20g aquarium, that had a UVB and heat lamp in it. For my new light, see my description.

 

[LindsayG]

Hello. I'm sorry your little girl isn't doing very good. She looks to have MBD due to not getting any calcium. She should've been getting calcium WITHOUT D3 at almost every feeding, calcium WITH D3 twice a month, and a multivitamin twice a month. I would get her to a vet as soon as you can incase she does have eggs and is unable to pass them herself. Being egg bound can kill her. The vet will also be able to help with the calcium problem. She does not look good but she also doesn't look like it's anything that can't be fixed. Another thing, you'll want to stop using the flukers gutload. It's useless. You want to feed the feeders fresh fruits and veggies, lots of greens and then get a good premade gutload like bug burger or cricket crack to use also. Once she's feeling better I would try introducing new feeders again. She needs variety. There are tons of different bugs out there, she's bound to like something. Just keep trying. I hope every thing works out for her.

 

[larryecm]

Thanks Lindsay - I wasn't dosing calcium without D3 due to the Fluckers cricket quencher having it, plus the Flucker's Gutload which also had vitamins and Calcium in it. Frustrating, as I thought I was doing the right thing.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[carol5208]

Her front legs look curvy to me in that picture.I don't know if it the way she is laying, but she looks like she has MBD. Most aquarium lights have plastic over them. Was this the case with yours? If so, she was not getting UVB. Also how old was the light? Are you even sure it was a UVB light. To my knowledge aquarium lights doe not contain UVB unless you had some type of animal besides fish that you specifically bought it for. If she has eggs and has MBD, she may not be able to lay them.

 

[carol5208]

Thanks Lindsay - I wasn't dosing calcium without D3 due to the Fluckers cricket quencher having it, plus the Flucker's Gutload which also had vitamins and Calcium in it. Frustrating, as I thought I was doing the right thing.

Thanks for the advice.

You may have been giving her enough calcium,(although most give daily) but if she was not getting any uvb the calcium did not get absorbed.

 

[LindsayG]

Thanks Lindsay - I wasn't dosing calcium without D3 due to the Fluckers cricket quencher having it, plus the Flucker's Gutload which also had vitamins and Calcium in it. Frustrating, as I thought I was doing the right thing.

Thanks for the advice.

I completely understand the confusion and it's extremely frustrating that they market that stuff that way because all it does is put people's animals in harm. Read the care sheets on here for female veiled and juse follow that once she's better aND she'll do just fine but first she definitely needs a vet.

 

[R.H]

Thanks Lindsay - I wasn't dosing calcium without D3 due to the Fluckers cricket quencher having it, plus the Flucker's Gutload which also had vitamins and Calcium in it. Frustrating, as I thought I was doing the right thing.

Thanks for the advice.

Don't feel bad, you now know to lightly dust every feed with calcium!!
I did exactly what u did untill these lovely people guided me in the right direction !
I hope ur baby gets better soon , deffo need a visit to ur local vet! !

 

[larryecm]

Carol - I didn't use an aquarium light, I purchased the hood, and specifically purchased a UVB Light, and a basking lamp. The light was on top of a metal screen, so no plastic filter to cut the UVB.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Veiled, female, about 7-8 months. 6 Months
• Handling - Not often, she won't let me.
• Feeding - Crickets, 10 a day, once daily. Gut loading using Flucker's Calcium Enriched Cricket Food. Tried various worms, she won't eat them.
• Supplements - Dusting with Fluckers Calcium with D3, twice weekly.
• Watering - I was using a manual spray body, spraying for 2-3 minutes 3 times a day. I now have an automated Mistking. Yes, she used to always drink at least 1-2 times a day
• Fecal Description - Dark Brown, with whitish/yellow urate. Although, no bowl movements in probably a week.
• History - Was very healthy acting until about 1-2 weeks ago.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - She was in a 20g aquarium until recently, I now have her in a DragonStrand Large Atrium mesh enclosure. 46w x 40" tall x 24" deep
• Lighting - lights on 12 hours per day. I did have a 75w heat lamp and a UVB bulb. I now have 2 HO T5 Arcadia 6% lights, and 150w heat bulb
• Temperature - Cage floor is around 72, basking spot is 85. Lowest overnight is 66-67 degrees. I measure using a laser infrared thermometer.
• Humidity - On average 50-60% measured with a humidity gauge. Controlled using a household humidifier, and frequent mistings (see above)
• Plants - I was using plastic, but now I am using live plants. All are safe per a listing of safe plants I found on this forum.
• Placement - In my home office, no fans, air vent below her but it doesn't blow directly on the cage. Top of cage is about 80" above ground
• Location - Western North Carolina, US

Current Problem - While in the 20g tank, she started showing gravid colors and acting like she might be gravid, so I put her in a laying bin. She also looked like she was gaining some weight. The laying bin is a 24" wide trashcan, with 20" deep sand/organic soil mixture. She had stopped eating. After about 4 days, she didn't really show signs of digging, and I had my new enclosure set-up, so I moved her into it. While in the laying bin, she ate 3 crickets total, and was drinking a little. I noticed she was having trouble hanging onto the branches and staying stable. So I moved her back to the laying bin. Now she mostly lays in the sand, and doesn't move often at all. She seems very weak, and unable to support her body weight with her legs, and she cannot climb. From a suggestion by a another forum member, I started giving her a little Insure today using an eye dropper. She has drank a little and her colors have improved. I also tried giving her a warm shower last night, but she didn't drink at all.

The best of my knowledge, I've done everything correctly. I've read and read and read, so not sure what's wrong. Any assistance or advice would be appreciated.

Your girl is in trouble. She needs a vet asap. She may be egg bound. There may be be something else going on like MBD. It may be a combination of a lot of things. Regardless, she is gravid and in trouble. This is not something the forum can help you with. Changing your husbandry will not solve this. She is in a crisis now. Please get her to a vet today. Take her to the vet in a bucket she can lay in. I have used one of those white painters buckets or a tote to transport females that are in trouble laying. I set it up with some sort of dirt to lay in, a few sticks and little plants. I throw a dark towel over top. I also dig starter holes for them.

 

[larryecm]

jajeanpierre - What makes you think she is Gravid and possibly egg bound? Based on photos I've seen, her belly honestly doesn't look that big.

I am going to get her to a Vet, but I cannot until tomorrow - They are closed for the day.

 

[carol5208]

Carol - I didn't use an aquarium light, I purchased the hood, and specifically purchased a UVB Light, and a basking lamp. The light was on top of a metal screen, so no plastic filter to cut the UVB.

oh ok, sorry I misunderstood! When I read back I see I made a mistake.

 

[carol5208]

Well you used both calcium and and uvb, but probably not enough calcium. Ask the vet to xray and you will know for sure if you are dealing with eggs, then you will know where to go from there. Good luck and let us know what the vet says.

 

[larryecm]

Thanks so much for your help, I'll keep you updated. She's actually looking a bit more lively tonight. She's climbing, or trying to climb. Big improvement from just laying there.

 

[jajeanpierre]

jajeanpierre - What makes you think she is Gravid and possibly egg bound? Based on photos I've seen, her belly honestly doesn't look that big.

I am going to get her to a Vet, but I cannot until tomorrow - They are closed for the day.

I say that because no female should be lying on the ground weak. She has a big belly--believe me she has a big pregnant belly. I can see the outline of what looks like an oval egg in the second photo just over her hind leg. She looks like she has a fractured front left leg, possibly from MBD. She just looks gravid. She looks dehydrated or else everything is softening up along her back and pelvis the way my chameleons do in the few days before they lay.

If she is calcium deficient and I am right that she is in trouble trying to lay those eggs (I'm not a vet. I'm looking at two pictures and reading your description so what do I really know?) she will likely die without medical intervention. The longer you delay medical intervention the poorer the outcome. If she were mine and I wanted to keep her alive I would have her in a vet's tonight. The trouble is finding someone who is open and who will deal with a reptile. If I didn't care if she lived or died, I would have her to a vet for an opinion of options, prognosis and time frames and then make a decision if one needs to be made. I would not let her linger.

If she were mine, I would not consider surgery an option. The mortality rate is too high and she is going into it in probably poor condition. I would get an xray, subcutaneous fluids and a calcium injection. Based on the x-ray and the exam, the vet might want to try oxytocin, which is very hard on them. I would have a bucket set up as a laying bin to transport her so if they give her oxytocin, she has somewhere to lay the eggs.

Laying eggs is often very very hard on them and if they go into in poor condition they often don't make it. Read jpowell86's two posts about his recently imported gravid Melleri, especially the one entitled "Gravid Melleri Conclusion."

 

[Carlton]

Thanks Lindsay - I wasn't dosing calcium without D3 due to the Fluckers cricket quencher having it, plus the Flucker's Gutload which also had vitamins and Calcium in it. Frustrating, as I thought I was doing the right thing.

Thanks for the advice.

We know, it IS frustrating! Producing eggs takes a lot of the female's calcium reserve, so if she was borderline deficient to begin with that's probably why she is now in trouble. Her leg curvature is suspicious of MBD. We've found through sad experience that the standard herp products so available at pet supplies just don't contain the correct formulations for chams. The Flucker's gutloads and cricket quencher are of marginal value. I hope she turns around!

 

[larryecm]

Thank you jajeanpierre - I am going to get her to a vet today, calling as soon as they open. There was not option for a vet last night, nobody was available. I even called the Reptile vet that is 1 hour away.

Thank you again.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Thank you jajeanpierre - I am going to get her to a vet today, calling as soon as they open. There was not option for a vet last night, nobody was available. I even called the Reptile vet that is 1 hour away.

Thank you again.

Transport her in a bucket set up like a laying bin. Dig a couple of little starter holes maybe four/five inches deep. Cover it with a dark towel. If she is up on her branches this morning, try to get her to drink if possible. If not, the vet can always give her subcutaneous fluids. If the vet does give her oxytocin, I would be inclined to leave her in the bucket you used for transport, so have something to cover the top so she can't climb out and lights so she is the right temperature and thinks it's daytime. They tend to not lay at night although oxytocin will probably take away any choice she has.

The eggs might have poorly calcified shells. If she had MBD to begin with, there might not have been enough calcium in her body to put a good shell on them. A thin shelled egg isn't as rigid as a proper egg, so could be more difficult to pass. It also won't be as visible on an xray and might fool a vet into thinking it is not ready to be laid.

Good luck. Please let us know.

 

[Crashbandit05]

I saw that your reside in WNC, I do as well. What vet do you go to? I've heard of one in Hickory but not sure. Good look with your girl, hopefully things can be turned around for the better.

 

[larryecm]

Update: She is at the Vet now - Definitely gravid, and has eggs, which was confirmed via X-ray. She does have early signs of MBD, but not bad. He said the X-rays looked really good. Our Vet feels confident that if we get some Calcium and Vitamin A in her, that she will be able to pass the eggs. He thinks, as eluded to above by jajeanpierre, that the Calcium draw required for the eggs was too much on her body.

He's putting together a treatment plan now, and we'll bring her home later this afternoon. He is also most likely going to dose her with Oxytocin. He is very much against doing surgery, due to the high risk.

CrashBandit05 - I'm seeing Balsam Animal Clinic which is west of Asheville, NC in the area where we live. Hickory is a good 2 hours for us.

Again, thanks everyone for your support - I'll continue to keep this thread updated on progress so that it might help others.