Nasal Salt Glands - the cause of the white crusts on the nose

[DekuScrub]

you guys need to simmer down

rofl but i must say ive been getting a good amount of entertainment from reading this

now whenever someone does a search on nose crusties theyre going to get to look at all this how long has this been going on 4 days?

neither of you are going to win. ;D

 

[Elizadolots]

Eliza you cited this...from July 2009...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/white-crust-around-nose-27823/#post254497
ashrules says "i shall reduced the amount of calcium dust i am using" then in Dec. 2009 in this thread it appears that the chameleon has developed MBD...but the UVB light could be part of the reason....
https://www.chameleonforums.com/i-dontknow-wats-wrong-34125/

In the site you listed from Brad, I don't see where Brad has said that its calcium oversupplementation that caused the crusty deposit...or am I missing something?

summoner12 doesn't say its specifically calcium either...or am I missing something here too?

In this thread, Jade's chameleon had MBD and yet the reduced calcium thing was still done?? I wonder how the chameleon did in the end?
https://www.chameleonforums.com/white-crust-nose-71674/#post669513

I'm sorry I missed this last night. The "single post view" puts the post being pointed to on top. Alas, it also shows the posts that follow it, and for some reason, people seem to want to read those instead of the one on top. In the case of the first link, it was to Miss Lilly's post:

This is usually associated with too much supplementation. Chams excrete excess salt, etc, via the nostrils which is seen as the white crust. It is not uncommon. How often do you supplement and what with? The insects should only be dusted very lightly - if they look like ghosts, then you've overdone it.

As I was only providing evidence of posters saying they had gotten the crusts to disappear by reducing the amount of calcium used, the ultimate resolution of the issue is not, I think, germane. However, I believe Jade indicated that her chameleon had been treated for MBD and was "right as rain" or some such thing.

Perhaps I posted the wrong link from Brad's board. It is the supplements page. http://raisingkittytheveiledchameleon.blogspot.com/2007/12/supplements.html

Very often people ask about the crusty white discharge that has started to appear in their veiled chameleon's nostrils ...this is how the animal eliminates excess minerals and salts and is a sign of over-supplementation.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

However, I believe Jade indicated that her chameleon had been treated for MBD and was "right as rain" or some such thing.

For anyone interested, someone who took Eliza's advice to decrease their calcium supplementation because of the crusts had this conclusion:

Hello everyone, I dont know if you remember me and my chameleon Jade, but that's okay.
Jade became eggbound a few days ago, I took her to the vet but her condition elevated... soon it was to late. Jade had passed away. She was only a year old, but I loved her so much, but she was sick when I got her. Atleast now she doesnt have to be sick anymore.

Thank you for reading.

R.I.P Jade.

Thank you for your sympanthy. Jade had a broken jaw, calcium defeicency, MBD, eggbind. And she didnt shed well. Im glad she doesnt have those problem anymore.

Oh and the vet said her bones were like tissue paper. that must have been horrible.

It's such a shame that her chameleon was not getting the calcium she needed already and then was advised to give even less for something totally harmless. So my question: was it worth it?

 

[Chris Anderson]

The excretions have been analyzed in chameleons and consist of sodium, chloride, and potassium (Burrage, 1973). The salt gland is typically attributed to lizards that incorporate plant matter into their diet and is a means of dealing with high potassium and salt content in the diet so as to increase the water retention via decreased ion concentrations. I've never seen any evidence of it being a result of over calcium supplementation and given that these excretions from the salt gland are not abnormal, I don't understand why decreasing calcium supplementation would be considered optimal to increasing hydration levels.

Chris

 

[lojack13]

Wow, awesome scientific work! This article has opened my eyes. I was always told that over supplementation of calcium was causing the nasal crusts. And I have been cutting a day or 2 of calcium from my Chams diet when I see this occur! No more from this day forward. I had that "Aha!" moment halfway through reading when I started thinking about my Chams hydration. I have a water softener, and what do water softeners run off of to soften your water?... "Salt" LOL I suspect on heavy drinking days / cycles they are developing the nasal crusts from the softened well water. Thanks for your hard work and research! It certainly changed my misguided beliefs and potentially saved my Chams from getting MBD

 

[Elizadolots]

Is this back? Chris, have you read Dr. Hazard's study on the adaptability of the nasal salt gland in a specific type of iguana? You can find it here: http://bio.research.ucsc.edu/~barrylab/Lisa/PDFs/Hazardchap06proof.pdf

A couple of comments that I want to make sure you note:

From the "repeatability" section:

The ontogeny of salt glands in lizards has not been studied, and it is possible that individuals exposed to different ions early in life may retain a tendency to secrete different ions in a laboratory situation.

From the conclusion:

Although most species secrete either primarily potassium or primarily sodium under natural conditions, many appear to be capable of a wide range of cation secretion when subjected to experimental ion loads. This includes Conolophus and Uta stansburiana, close relatives of the marine/intertidal forms Amblyrhynchus and U. tumidarostra, respectively. This suggests that selection for the ability to secrete sodium
may not have been necessary for the ancestors of these marine species to switch from a more typical terrestrial diet to a marine diet. Secretion of sodium by these species may simply reflect acclimation of the glands to a sodium-rich diet.

As her qualifications have been called into question, here's her CV: http://bio.research.ucsc.edu/~barrylab/Lisa/Pages/cv.html

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Wait, wait, wait....your entire argument was that because the nasal salts of chameleons specifically were not examined that the rest of the evidence wasn't conclusive enough since they were done on different species. Now that Chris has provided a paper specifically on a chameleon with salt gland analysis you want to use a paper on an iguana as your proof against it??

 

[Chris Anderson]

Yes, I have read this book chapter. Can you point me to where it says anything at all to suggest that the nasal salt excretions of chameleons has anything to do with "excessive" calcium supplementation, that these nasal excretions are abnormal or indicative of a supplementation issue, or that the reduction in calcium supplementation should be the response to observation of the normal function of these glands?

The lines you quote suggest that a history of exposure to particular ions over the life of an animal could result in the development of an ability of the salt glands to excrete those ions in different concentrations. This is in the context of the evolution and development of this mechanism to cope with osmotic balance. While in the most extreme interpretation this could be contorted to suggest that such excretions could THEORETICALLY be related to calcium, these sentences provide no scientific evidence that it has ever been shown to be related to dietary calcium levels, let alone that this possibility should be the basis to make husbandry recommendations from.

As I said, I've never seen any support for the excretions of the nasal salt glands in chameleons being the result of over calcium supplementation. Since these excretions are not abnormal and are an effort to increase water retention, I don't understand why decreasing calcium supplementation would be considered optimal to increasing hydration levels.

Chris

 

[Elizadolots]

I'm somehow not seeing a link to an article...however, a study from 1973 pretty much has to be about wild animals doesn't it?

Chris Anderson wrote:

The lines you quote suggest that a history of exposure to particular ions over the life of an animal could result in the development of an ability of the salt glands to excrete those ions in different concentrations.

Yes.

That's it exactly. I believe that Dr. Hazard's work supports the theory that captive bred/raised chameleosn exposed to large amounts of calcium carbonate would adapt to express that as their "heavy" environmental salt. I'm not saying she explicitly says that. I'm saying that her results and conclusions put it in the realm of possible.

There is experiential evidence on this board that decreasing calcium supplementation will cause the crusts to go away.

While that is not evidence that the crusts are made of calcium, it is evidence that calcium plays a factor in the crusts.

I suspect someone has misinformed you of the issues because optimal hydration was never a consideration in this debate that I am aware of.

 

[Chris Anderson]

I believe that Dr. Hazard's work supports the theory that captive bred/raised chameleosn exposed to large amounts of calcium carbonate would adapt to express that as their "heavy" environmental salt. I'm not saying she explicitly says that. I'm saying that her results and conclusions put it in the realm of possible.

Except there is not a single mention of calcium at all in the book chapter and no scientific evidence that calcium levels during development could change the calcium content of the excretions of the nasal salt glands. What I mean by that is there is absolutely no support, no matter what way you try to contort it, to the suggestion that "excessive" calcium concentrations in chameleons would cause these excretions or that alterations of supplementation levels should be the husbandry response to the presence of this normal salt excretion.

There is experiential evidence on this board that decreasing calcium supplementation will cause the crusts to go away.

No, there may be speculation, but no evidence or rigorous experimentation. There is no statistical support for such a statement and no control to verify that no other changes to husbandry are accountable for the loss of these excretions.

While that is not evidence that the crusts are made of calcium, it is evidence that calcium plays a factor in the crusts.

No, in the absence of any type of verification that calcium had anything to do with it, it proves nothing.

I suspect someone has misinformed you of the issues because optimal hydration was never a consideration in this debate that I am aware of.

I'm actually quite well informed about the topic, thanks though. The fact that hydration was not brought up in a topic relating to a mechanism for maintaining osmotic balance is just proof that the topic lacked complete perspective.

Chris

 

[Elizadolots]

Except there is not a single mention of calcium at all in the book chapter and no scientific evidence that calcium levels during development could change the calcium content of the excretions of the nasal salt glands. What I mean by that is there is absolutely no support, no matter what way you try to contort it, to the suggestion that "excessive" calcium concentrations in chameleons would cause these excretions or that alterations of supplementation levels should be the husbandry response to the presence of this normal salt excretion.

There's no mention of a situation that only occurs in captivity when the study was of wild animals....Is that somehow surprising?

So, when repeated posters, some of them long time members say "I cut back on the calcium (or, "I switched to purified water instead of tapped" because that's the same thing)" it's meaningless? You discount the reports of the people who post here?

No, there may be speculation, but no evidence or rigorous experimentation. There is no statistical support for such a statement and no control to verify that no other changes to husbandry are accountable for the loss of these excretions.

My summary of that is: the study has not been done, so there are no actual facts, there is only theory.

No, in the absence of any type of verification that calcium had anything to do with it, it proves nothing.

It was never a question of proof, it was always a question of possibility.

I'm actually quite well informed about the topic, thanks though. The fact that hydration was not brought up in a topic relating to a mechanism for maintaining osmotic balance is just proof that the topic lacked complete perspective.

Chris

hey, you're the one who kept mentioning it like it was part of the discussion.

 

[Chris Anderson]

There's no mention of a situation that only occurs in captivity when the study was of wild animals....Is that somehow surprising?

So you're suggesting that your hypothetical scenario has weight because while there are no facts to support it, there are also no facts explicitly stating that every aspect of it is wrong?

So, when repeated posters, some of them long time members say "I cut back on the calcium (or, "I switched to purified water instead of tapped" because that's the same thing)" it's meaningless? You discount the reports of the people who post here?

Yes, I am saying that all observations should be taken as a grain of salt and questioned. I am saying that in the absence of control and explicit testing, you can't assume correlation to be causation. I am saying that these anecdotes are not support for the idea that calcium supplementation should be reduced based on the presence of normal excretion from the nasal salt glands.

My summary of that is: the study has not been done, so there are no actual facts, there is only theory.



It was never a question of proof, it was always a question of possibility.

Lots of things are theoretically possible, that doesn't mean there is support for these theories. Just because a room of monkeys could theoretically carve their own instruments and write a symphony doesn't mean we should hold our breath for it to happen. Similarly, just because a study hasn't been explicitly done to prove calcium supplementation is not the cause of salt deposits around the nares of captive chameleons, or that these deposits are indicative of a problem that should be treated with reduce calcium supplementation, does not mean that there is any support for the idea.

hey, you're the one who kept mentioning it like it was part of the discussion.

Hydration absolutely should be part of the discussion. The nasal salt gland is a mechanism for maintaining osmotic balance. Any discussion on osmotic balance that lacks consideration of hydration is lacking. Any attempt to diagnose husbandry changes in response to the production of secretions for the maintenance of osmotic balance without the consideration of hydration is completely uninformed.

Chris

 

[Elizadolots]

So you're suggesting that your hypothetical scenario has weight because while there are no facts to support it, there are also no facts explicitly stating that every aspect of it is wrong?

Yes. I am merely saying this is a valid theory, not that is a proven fact (or FAQ)

Yes, I am saying that all observations should be taken as a grain of salt and questioned. I am saying that in the absence of control and explicit testing, you can't assume correlation to be causation.

Absolutely. We are in complete agreement on this.

I am saying that these anecdotes are not support for the idea that calcium supplementation should be reduced based on the presence of normal excretion from the nasal salt glands.

Again...complete agreement.

Lots of things are theoretically possible, that doesn't mean there is support for these theories. Just because a room of monkeys could theoretically carve their own instruments and write a symphony doesn't mean we should hold our breath for it to happen. Similarly, just because a study hasn't been explicitly done to prove calcium supplementation is not the cause of salt deposits around the nares of captive chameleons, or that these deposits are indicative of a problem that should be treated with reduce calcium supplementation, does not mean that there is any support for the idea.

Does it mean there is no support? I mean, we're at no explicit studies have been done...do we get to say "it's a fact that calcium is not part of the nasal salt gland discharge"?

Hydration absolutely should be part of the discussion. The nasal salt gland is a mechanism for maintaining osmotic balance. Any discussion on osmotic balance that lacks consideration of hydration is lacking. Any attempt to diagnose husbandry changes in response to the production of secretions for the maintenance of osmotic balance without the consideration of hydration is completely uninformed.

Chris

I agree, though you are going into realms not discussed in this thread previously.

I'll tell you my primary concern (and I'm sure this will come as a huge surprise to some).

If, in fact, the nasal discharge, which is controlled by calcium supplementation,* is not calcium then I am worried that the animals are expelling needed sodium in response to an overload of calcium carbonate. While a sodium deficiency would be extremely unlikely in the wild, it seems like it could be forced by over supplementation of calcium carbonate in captivity if the nasal salt gland is not expressing calcium carbonate.



*that's the experience of the board. I refuse to view that as anything other than experience and evidence.

 

[carol5208]

Kinyonga" Decreasing calcium, if the person decreases it too far, is harmful....so if snalt is not harmful, I would rather see a chameleon with snalt on its nose than see a chameleon with MBD because of decreased calcium....IF IT EVEN IS CALCIUM THAT IS PLAYING A PART IN THE SNALT" So I ask, why tell members to cut back on calcium then?? What is the point??? So the chameleon has white on its nose...big deal, right????

 

[zlee]

Wonderful post, thank you.

 

[Chris Anderson]

If, in fact, the nasal discharge, which is controlled by calcium supplementation,* is not calcium then I am worried that the animals are expelling needed sodium in response to an overload of calcium carbonate. While a sodium deficiency would be extremely unlikely in the wild, it seems like it could be forced by over supplementation of calcium carbonate in captivity if the nasal salt gland is not expressing calcium carbonate.



*that's the experience of the board. I refuse to view that as anything other than experience and evidence.

In effect you are recommending a shotgun treatment method for something that you have no evidence to suggest is even a problem, without consideration of the problems that could result from your recommended treatment or consideration of alternative, less detrimental means to address the perceived issue. While some on the board may have observed a reduction in nasal salt gland excretion following reduced calcium supplementation, there is nothing to suggest that the two are directly linked, that the nasal salt gland discharge was harmful in any way or indicative of a problem, or that the reduction in calcium supplementation was beneficial. Why should anyone consider reducing calcium supplements given that there is no indication that this nasal discharge is harmful, or anything but normal, no indication that calcium supplementation level has anything to do with the discharge and no indication that calcium supplementation levels are unreasonably high when nasal salt gland discharge is present, especially given that simply increasing hydration will accomplish the same thing? Its a stupid idea.

Chris

 

[carol5208]

In effect you are recommending a shotgun treatment method for something that you have no evidence to suggest is even a problem, without consideration of the problems that could result from your recommended treatment or consideration of alternative, less detrimental means to address the perceived issue. While some on the board may have observed a reduction in nasal salt gland excretion following reduced calcium supplementation, there is nothing to suggest that the two are directly linked, that the nasal salt gland discharge was harmful in any way or indicative of a problem, or that the reduction in calcium supplementation was beneficial. Why should anyone consider reducing calcium supplements given that there is no indication that this nasal discharge is harmful, or anything but normal, no indication that calcium supplementation level has anything to do with the discharge and no indication that calcium supplementation levels are unreasonably high when nasal salt gland discharge is present, especially given that simply increasing hydration will accomplish the same thing. Its a stupid idea.

Chris

Well said as ALWAYS Chris!!!

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

If, in fact, the nasal discharge, which is controlled by calcium supplementation,* is not calcium then I am worried that the animals are expelling needed sodium in response to an overload of calcium carbonate. While a sodium deficiency would be extremely unlikely in the wild, it seems like it could be forced by over supplementation of calcium carbonate in captivity if the nasal salt gland is not expressing calcium carbonate.

That makes no sense physiologically at all. Animals do not become hyponatremic (lacking sodium) unless they have a very detrimental illness affecting the adrenal gland, which is not something documented in reptiles. Dehydration causes hypernatremia, not hypo. Calcium levels would not cause that effect.

Chris has made absolutely excellent points and Carol has hit the core of the matter that I've been saying all along.

 

[Elizadolots]

In effect you are recommending a shotgun treatment method for something that you have no evidence to suggest is even a problem, without consideration of the problems that could result from your recommended treatment or consideration of alternative, less detrimental means to address the perceived issue.

Well...first, I have not recommended a treatment method at all. I have a concern which I think is valid and for which no research has been done, but I have always--despite what some have said--recommended ignoring the crusts. However, as you probably know, some owners are very concerned with the aesthetics of their animals and find the crusts unacceptable. For them I do suggest reducing the quantity of calcium used but maintaining the same supplement schedule.

While some on the board may have observed a reduction in nasal salt gland excretion following reduced calcium supplementation, there is nothing to suggest that the two are directly linked,

"Some" is actually quite a large number. I fail to see how you can say that people can observe a reduction in the nasal discharge when they reduce the amount of calcium supplement, but there is no evidence that they are linked. Isn't the observation that "when I cut back on calcium, it went away" evidence that they are linked?

That makes no sense physiologically at all. Animals do not become hyponatremic (lacking sodium) unless they have a very detrimental illness affecting the adrenal gland, which is not something documented in reptiles.

In nature. However, the situation of a captive reptile being fed ghosty white crickets is very unnatural.

I am going to, respectfully, ask you to try to report my posts accurately. Above you essentially accused me of contributing to the death of a chameleon. However, I cannot find that I ever offered Jade4321 any advice whatsoever. As far as I can tell, the only time I ever posted anything to Jade it was condolences on the death of her chameleon.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

In nature. However, the situation of a captive reptile being fed ghosty white crickets is very unnatural.

It doesn't matter if it's in wild nature or captivity. Can you name any example of an animal that has a body part that physiologically functions completely differently in a captive setting than its wild counterpart? Please also provide proof that we are feeding them way more calcium than they would get in the wild. You are making this assumption based on what exactly? We have to supplement their food but until we have the nutritional analysis of all the bugs of Africa and Madagascar that have been feeding on the surrounding vegetation I cannot say that the calcium intake is less, the same, or more. Wild ones dont get MBD so maybe we've just supplemented up to their normal requirement. Who's to say?