"Naturalistic Hydration"

[DeremensisBlue]

@cyberlocc , It is time to come clean. While Petr was the force behind exposing the concept of nighttime fogging to the US digital community at large it was me that coined the term “Naturalistic Hydration”. And I am the one responsible/to blame for explaining it to the community in those terms. While it was convenient to hide behind the august reputation of Petr Necas, this issue just derailed a perfectly good rant against Facebook. And so I knew I needed to take action, come forward, and face the music with…a wall of text.

The reason why I chose “naturalistic hydration” to describe this concept was that that is what it was compared to the standard practice. In captivity (this will be gross generalizations), our chameleons follow our modified environment where we let the cage dry out at night and then mist and drip during the day. In nature it is higher humidity at night and the day is the chance to dry out when the sun comes up. Obviously, all are gross generalizations as my friends in Alabama would love to have a swing in humidity.

You are absolutely correct that this is dry season weather. During the wet season it can be raining all the time. How do we choose between the two? It is mostly because of what works best in captivity. If I advise a dry season schedule then we get the nighttime hydration and then we get the drying out that is necessary to avoid the bacteria blooms and the foot sores, etc. So the term “naturalistic hydration” was chosen at the very high level to make it clear that high night time humidity is natural. It isn’t just the ramblings of a crazy Czech sipping the nectar of the rare Madagascar poppy during a full moon. It is something we see evidence of everywhere. The important thing about this was not to say this was the one schedule that encompasses all things natural, but that there was a very important key hidden in adhering to the natural rhythms. And that the nighttime fog did contribute to the hydration cycle. It was very important to try to simplify this as much as was possible. People trying it (including me) were getting unmistakable results in chameleon hydration. But the social media experts (that strangely think they are at the forefront of knowledge while simultaneously rejecting anything they don’t understand) were fighting against this with compelling arguments such as “That’s ridiculous, chameleons don’t drink at night!” even though it was all explained and laid out with scientific paper evidence in the podcast where naturalistic hydration was presented. So, a public education campaign not only had to explain the concept, but counteract the people actively resisting understanding something new.

So, this all was to push home that nighttime fogging was not a new idea, but a realization of what is going on in nature. And it was never meant to imply that this represents everything that goes on in nature. My intention was simply to get people exposed to nighttime fogging as something that corrects a number of issues brought on by our insistence in making their high humidity time during the day instead of during the nighttime.

So why wouldn’t we recreate wet seasons too? The most common chameleon species we have in the hobby have wet and dry seasons. Our Kenyan species, like Jackson’s, have two of each per year. I do not know how important have both a wet and dry season is for our chameleons. And by “I don’t know” I mean I do not have any evidence that they need both. Sure I can speculate. But we can’t say we know until someone gets a brood of Jackson’s, splits them up, and does dry season all year for one group and two wet and two dry season conditions for the other and reports the conditions (and then they are replicated by someone else). I would love for this to be done one day. Put this on the list of things we need to figure out. At this point I am not seeing anything about the raising of Jackson’s, Panther, Veiled, and my other species that suggests that dry season conditions (with ample water and shelter available) are detrimental or produce chameleons with a lack of vitality. But I do know that trying to replicate wet season conditions in the standard chameleon cage is very problematic and leads to many health conditions. So why don’t they just all get sick in the wild and die? I think we can all agree that air movement is the #1 suspect. Once you apply air movement to a cage you have great leeway in what chameleons can tolerate. High temp + High humidity = RI? I think this has been true because the equation really is High temp + High humidity + stagnant air = RI. If you got the air moving I think RI would fall. Stagnant air is bad for health whether dry or humid. And this explains why constant misting during the hot summer months to cool down our outdoor chameleons does not result in sickness.

So, we can call nighttime fogging anything we want. I chose naturalistic hydration to highlight that this change in husbandry was to get back closer to what they see in nature. It was chosen to contrast what we were doing. And that was actually important to me, personally, because if something is working there needs to be an exceptional reason to change it. Usually, the only good reason is to get closer to nature with the faith that this will end up being better husbandry. High nighttime humidity is getting closer to what chameleons were designed to live in so it is worth it to investigate replicating.

So, that’s the background as far as my involvement in this topic. The forums are definitely the place to discuss things like this so I say we explore the topic.

 

[cyberlocc]

So, that’s the background as far as my involvement in this topic. The forums are definitely the place to discuss things like this so I say we explore the topic.

(I cut your quote so I dont hit 10k)

Great post, and I do want to make fully clear, that I absolutely LOVE, this idea of Naturalistic Hydration. I know sometimes it may seem I am trying to attack it, I am really not at all. I question some of our methods of achieving it (using a fogger), and have been trying to find ways to improve upon that (with plants).

Daytime Humidity:

I do question as you have pointed out, the Heat + Humidity = RI statement that gets thrown around. I agree with your assessment that I think it may be more of a Heat + Humidity + Stagnant Air = RI. Not because I am saying that the idea is wrong, or that it doesn't cause it (the H+H=RI) just that it doesn't seem logical to me, so it is hard for me to understand, and I want to.

I would really like to know, as I am sure you would. What is truly the cause of the RI, is it the Heat + Humidity and if so, why? Is it the stagnant Air? Is it a creation of Bacteria that is formed due to the heat mixing with the water? I haven't really seen any hard data on what causes it, and feel this is something we should be exploring, as if we know the cause, then we know the fix, right?

I know on one of your more recent videos, I had watched you had suggested a 50-70% daytime humidity for Panthers, and I loved to see that its stark contrast from the 30-40% that we see parroted so often it seems. There seems to be so many issues that can stem from too low of humidity. I know your chameleon academy has a disclaimer about shedding and that raising humidity would not help solve the issue. In that instance, and I believe we spoke about that, if following your sheet to a T, and maintaining a humidity level of 50-70% then thats true. However as I told Gingero, and we discussed, if the humidity is 20% than that statement no longer holds true, at least as I understand it from the papers that I have read, if you have conflicting data on that I would love to see it though, I am not a biologist, I simply can perceive and try to understand the information I see from those that are and so that is what I am going by.

I do have a wonder in all this, that you would actually be the best source in the world to clear up for me. It does I think tie back to the entire puzzle, and maybe be a crucial piece that we have been missing all along.

I kept a few chams in my younger days, back in the Aquarium Days, and know it was a disaster my Jackson's was sold to me under the pretense of "you likely wont keep this alive are you sure want it". So I wasn't around for the switch to Screen cages, so am not sure (Other than the bits and pieces that I can recreate from old posts on these and other forums, and studies magazines ect).

However what I can gather, we went from Aquariums, and those did not work, I know first hand of that. Then the screen cage took its first iteration, and hasn't changed much. I get it, it works why change it, its understandable, I personally would always prefer that the hobby and community grow and try to improve rather than sit idle with well that worked. I feel a win, should be taken as such, but not let it be a finish line but merely a pit stop to the next goal line.

Anyway, we took that as the goal line, and we kind of stopped there for what seems to have been a long time. I feel size has been another construct of that as well, from what I gather the 2x2x4 was a size that was in the early stages of "Reptibreeze" and that again, it worked the cham seemed to like it fine, it established an ability to have a gradient that worked. to the point where it is now just sat in stone. Until you developed your Atrium, and turned much needed to be turned heads, I feel that size is much much better personally, my animals seem to enjoy the horizontal width more than vertical.

I know you have begun to do this again, with your "Vivarium Series" and am not sure if that is the cage redesign we are seeing coming, is more of that, but it would be a blessing in my eyes. The demonazation of "Glass" has lessened as of late, it took a LONG time, but it is happening. By glass I do not mean, just Exoterra glass vivs, but Vivs like your Vivarium series or even the breeders with enclosed sides. I take pride in the statement that I have explored this forum, up and down a couple of times throughout the years . and Remember reading Posts, by Brad and Chris, speaking highly of Glass, and yet here we are 13 years later and glass is still being demonized. As you said the other day, breaking through the mob, is tough business I guess (No, I know).

Anyway sorry to ramble I just want to make sure I have the history down correct. For the tie in, I am curious could a major aspect of this stale air issue be the very nature of the screen cage that we have labeled as goal? If we deem stagnant air as the culprit in the RI, would not a more enclosed system with a chimney effect provide a better quality of air circulation?

I know way back Chris found Protean cages, and utilized them to great success. However He had them modified to support more Airflow, a fully mesh top being one such modification. Whether this hinders the chimney effect I am unsure, what it does hinder is the ability to maintain humidity. Less top side opening = more humidity, while still providing ventilation in the form of constant air movement from a chimney effect. As I brought up to bob in the green house effect.

If we reduced the size of the top opening, while also providing a smaller than a solid panel venting entrance, we could support a higher humidity throughout whilst supporting a maybe better ventilation? I know you had commented on the wet branches and causing feet lesions. However I dont think that would happen to the extent that seems common belief in the Chameleon Hobby. Orchids, as we were talking about a while ago, cannot escape their wetness, and need quite alot of ventilation as well. They also have this odd and horrid habit of rotting their roots if their feet are to remain wet.

They need to be able to have their roots be dry, alot. Whilst also being able to pull water from the air, and at the same time be dry lol. This does work, in vivarium situations as above. The roots do dry, even with 100% humidity. We can see this effect in practice in Herpetology with Dart Frogs. They need 100% humidity, their skin is fragile and will lose water very very quickly. Yet the plants in the tank are not rotting and the surfaces do dry out fully between mists.

As to whether or not the Wet Season, as spoke of above is needed, your right it might not. Just a few of my thoughts on if we wanted to, and why our current issue with humidity is happening. Which does have a tie in with our nighttime humidity, which I will now Address in the next post, because this one might be close to 10k.

 

[cyberlocc]

Nighttime Humidity:

I do question, as I said before our way of providing night time humidity. I have a few concerns with it, in my own trial things I have found, and have since left the system that is being used, due to them, and am exploring other ways. So I will go over those with you, as maybe you have insight as you have been using it.

Foggers:

Salty brought up in that other thread, an issue I have with foggers, or I think I did lol. If the chameleon was to happen to fall asleep right under the fogger and is breathing in the "Mist" it puts out would this not be injected water in the lungs? Could this not be a source of RI in and of itself? Do chams not experience pneumonia in the way that we do? In that same vein, we could attribute the same issue to misting. Maybe the phenomenon that we are attributing to be Heat + Humidity equaling RI, actually be Mist entering their lungs while they are trying to breath and being sprayed. The heat could intensify this in some way maybe? Air is thinner, and more likely to absorb water when its hot, hot dry air wants water, so the mist binds with the air and gets inhaled in amounts that Cause RIs.

If thats the case, then maybe Humidity isnt our daytime problem nor is daytime water, its our delivery system, we have been pushing this "ohh finer the mist the better" notion, when maybe drops of water so a rain system instead of misting nozzles was the better option all along. I dont think many folks have attempted an actual only drop based rain system, I know my findings were lackluster when looking for ideas to make my own, most incorporated misters in some capacity. sorry to go back to daytime, just was fitting to this and I didn't think about it till typing this.

So if the issue is in fact breathing in water, and causing water in the lungs, surely blasting the "Cool Mist Humidifier" right at the chameleon isnt ideal. We really cant control this, without diffusing the mist more, I think Brody has done something to this effect on his system. I think that was what Salty was getting at, as I am fairly certain he does raise nighttime humidity, and is onboard with the idea of it.


Bacteria, is a MAJOR concern of mine in the fogger system. I have a few vivariums on fogger for different species. The system was extremely difficult to maintain, to clean. Taking it all apart to clean the various pieces and having to do so, what seemed to be every few days was a serious downside, especially as I am convincing the wife to allow me to add more Vivariums and the complication level rises to do so. That problem doesn't really fit everyone, to someone with 1 or 2 cages, its not that big of a deal. To me, with various size cages in different locations, and more than 2 lol, the problem escalates quickly. I require intrict PVC fogger tubes, and to tear them down and clean them so often was a serious chore.

Which also leads to fear with people who wont take the time to do that even for 1 cage, or forget what have you. The bacteria (what I assume to be bacteria, the slime if you will) gathers quite quickly.


I have been seeing alot of folks take to using nighttime misting instead. I have done so myself, I dislike this idea as well. I am using it, as for me currently the lesser of 2 evils. However now we have a wet cham, a wet cage, and wet and rotting plants, we are breeding bacteria in the cool wet dark conditions. We are hindering our plants that dont want to spend the night soaking wet, but would rather transpire the water they have already.

Wet VS Dry:

Now this is entirely speculation, as to the wet season and the dry, however I have been messing with the Harlequin Flower Beetle as of late. Odd little beetle, they too experience a wet and a dry season. They change colors, seems to be a fibrous hair like substance on its shell that causes this effect. When the beetle is dry, and humidity is low, its yellow or orange. When the Humidity is high, the beetle becomes green or reddish, a darker shade to its dry color.

The beetle will survive dry weather, it can be kept with a up and down humidity its entire life, it will seemingly thrive. It will mate, it will eat, it will flutter, it will live what seems to be a happy healthy life for 3-4 months. However a beetle that spends its life green, in 80% humidity and higher at all times, will also mate, eat, flutter, and it will live what seems to be a happy healthy life, for 6-7 months. With a change of constant humidity, vs occasional drying out with spikes, its lifespan in captivity is almost doubled.

I'm not saying this will happen chameleons, or that their life span will double. I am just saying, we know the Dry season is rough on chams, and that many perish during that season. So there is in my mind, at least the slightest chance, that it may prove to be a similar case of that of the beetle.


Summary:

So in summary, to stop rambling, and let some one else throw some ideas and thoughts to the mix lol. I think, the idea of raising the humidity is a great one, however I think the idea should not only be at night. I think that foggers are also a subpar choice to doing so. I think, if we can figure out why the RIs happen with daytime humidity, we can as I suggested before. Modify our thoughts on caging, to allow us more humidity using less water which will help balance everything else in tandem. We can drop the fogger, and allow the plants to do what they do, naturally, transpire.
I feel the screen cage, is a relic of a past goal, that was succeeded and needs to be moved away from. I feel that in these days, of moving towards more natural keeping and recreating what our animals would experience in the wild its a hindrance.

We went from 1 extreme to the next, we had aquariums, with almost solid lids, and then screen lids, with poor ventilation, poor height, and poor gradients. So we flipped the script, we seen the issues and just went from 1 extreme to the next, well if there is not enough ventilation, lets make it fully screen. Well there is not enough height flip it on its side. Ohh well that worked, they are surviving so it must right now. However does the fact that 1 extreme didn't work, really mean the next that kind of works, is the best? Did a lack of ventilation push us into a corner where we have now went overboard. However, if we change the way we cage, to help support Nightime humidity, Daytime will have to raise with it. Short of using fans to trick the system, we cant have both.

In moving to a enclosed caging idea, like the froggers, using cork or foam and coco backgrounds, Bioactive vivaria, and using the right plants, we can initiate a rise in all humidity both day and night. As well as establish better gradients cage wide, lower to the soil higher humidity higher to the top, lower humidity. We are then as well, allow our chams more access to decide what it is they want, instead of us deciding for them. 50-70% humidity at the cages top, may very well be plenty. As long as the cham has the ability to enter higher humidity zones. Our weather data, isnt very revealing of where it was taken. Was it taken at the canopys top, maybe there it is 50%, or was the measurement was taken at 5 feet up in the midst of Madagascars seriously water transpiring palms.

A big issue with that entire idea and principle is it has to change the minds of not only keepers but of businesses. Which we have seen is like pulling teeth, obviously if promise was shown, small businesses with roots in the community like yours would adapt to our new found needs. However, thats not going to change the minds of exoterra, or zoomed. We seem to run into that with lighting. I have been preaching what I feel the advantage to naturalistic lighting is to everyone who will listen for awhile lol. ZERO Converts lol.

 

[cyberlocc]

Oh and I dont think that Petr is a Crazy old Czeck, I think old age may be taking a tole with some of my interactions with him. However I do think that he is very knowledgeable and has been a great asset to this community for a very long time and always will be. There is also a pretty sizable language barrier at times, and sometimes he fails to recognize it, and so do we (or at least I do).

I just wanted to clear that up from the other post, as it may have came off as I do not like him, and I dont not like him, I do struggle communicating with him however. I have some issues with empathy, and know that at times I can come off as brash, and maybe offense and its not my intent. I speak from a logic mind, rather than an emotional standpoint, and tend to think the same way.

And if he has, Nectar of the rare Madagascar poppy I want some!

 

[salty dog]

Thank you guys for putting in the time & effort to explain this subject!! fresh clean air is critically important no matter which way hydration is introduced wet or dry....fabricating a fresh jet stream will be challenging...

 

[DeremensisBlue]

I'll do topics in sections here. First,
Foggers, humidity, and RI

For a respiratory infection to occur we need the onslaught of bacteria to be greater than the immune system can handle. This trip point can be reached by increasing the bacteria in the area or creating enough stress that the immune system weakens. So the question, when we have reports of RIs is what combination of things happened. Everyone loves to guess and confidently state their opinion, but when you sort through the data it becomes very hard to find a smoking gun. With the scenario of people trying to get 100% humidity by wrapping their cage up and pumping fog in all night it is probably the increased stress of trying hard to breath with stagnant air. But when someone in internet land says they started fogging and their chameleon got an RI you know it is a grossly simplified report that leaves out much of the important information and is delivered with a conclusion come to by someone who probably is not qualified to make a conclusion. So I am not even sure what the real connection is between fogging and RIs. I would need to see it myself and figure out why things went wrong. I just don’t have that information yet. I have, luckily, seen very little of RIs in my work with foggers. But that has the detriment that I have to figure out why things are working without failures to compare/contrast. To be an effective educator I need to understand the fail points just as well as the success points. So, I am still working on this. I did have one failure and that was with having stagnant air. (Integrating the chimney effect solved the issue.)

I do not think it is a problem with getting too much water in the lungs. Chameleons are reported to place themselves where the fog will be over night. I have no idea how they know where the fog stream is when it only goes off at night, but I have observed this and have heard from others who saw this. The challenge here is that there are so many wildly different experiences with fogging that it is hard to find patterns to the fail points. But that wouldn't mean that finer or coarser mist would not have a better effect. It is certainly a good test to try out different humidity methods and see how we can best implement our environmental control. There are certainly many things that could be better about our present humidity devices. I am all for things improving. Foggers are especially effective with screen cages because it takes a concentrated humidity beam to counter act the ventilation. But you point out the difficulties that are inherent with screen cages and humidity control. Localized control is difficult and a couple inches away from the fog beam you are at ambient room humidity. So there is a great deal of work for us to do here. Using enclosed cages opens up more options for us and this is an area that is well worth exploring. I am actually very excited about experimenting more in this arena. Maybe transpiration and a standard humidifier? I like the low power methods. Instead of blasting them with a concentrated beam of mist, fog, heat, UVB, etc... having a gentle ebb and flow over the entire area is much more preferable. So I am closely following what you (@cyberlocc ) are doing with your systems. It will take some effort to turn it into something that the general populace can reproduce, but that is how this all works. You have one success that runs smoothly and then you turn efforts to figure out how to optimize it for general consumption. And, just on a personal note, that I what I have dedicated my work to - rooting out the successes in the community that will move us forward and figuring out how to explain it or make it accessible to the more general community. I very much like my job.

 

[DeremensisBlue]

Next, Caging….

Yes, we do a great deal of slamming to extremes!

I do believe that we will slowly migrate towards more enclosed caging in the chameleon community. This is a function of both education and availability. The reason why it is moving so slowly is that there is a huge body of experience and knowledge around making it work with screen cages. Every cage has characteristics that you need to be familiar with to make them work. Screen cages have the downside that any energy you put into the system quickly dissipates and the effective range is measured in inches before it disappears into the ambient. But that also is a plus as there is a wide range of buffer space to do something wrong. The chameleon just moves a couple inches away and is out of the intensity. We have a large body of advice and equipment that is tuned in with this dynamic. If you applied screen cage advice to a glass cage (with or without the chimney effect) you will quickly kill the chameleon. So glass/enclosed cages must come with educational support as to how to use the tools. And, also, it needs to be presented with the benefits in such a way that the benefits justify changing something that is working. We are raising chameleons to what we figure is old age in screen cages. Why change? What is the benefit? So, to change the course of this huge ship there will need to be an enormous store of information and social media support systems for people to ask questions.

So, yes, that is the thinking behind me coming out with the Vivarium series last year and formalizing the product line this year. But for me to do this I have to create a whole network of education as to how to use the tools and it has to be extensive enough that the people are able to be confident enough to buck the trend of the social media experts saying that you NEED screen or your chameleon will die. I regularly got emails from people blaming my clearside cages for their chameleon’s RI because some Facebook person confidently pointed to solid sides as a problem. A couple of logical tests would always prove that this was not the problem. But that is the kind of resistance anything new is facing. So the speed bump is pretty respectable. So, last year, only the people who emailed me and proactively requested the vivarium models got them. (Vivarium models are my cages with all solid sides except for the bottom service door and top so it used the “chimney effect”). This year I will be able to make them part of my standard product line because I have the educational support systems in place to help people try this. It is a slow process. The thing is, that for me to effectively launch a product line that implements a new strategy I not only have to show how to do it, but I also have to explain all the things that could go wrong and answer all the misinformation out there. So it becomes a substantial task!

With all this said, the one thing that will justify, in the community’s minds, a switch in everything they have “grown up” with is seeing gorgeous naturalistic environments with a vibrant, healthy chameleon slinking about the shadows. A huge benefit of bringing a chameleon into our home is that we have a slice of nature. Sure, we can be fascinated by a chameleon sitting in a cage, but deep down, we know it is merely a caged dragon and that it is a fish out of water. But when they see a lushly planted environment and the chameleon fits in just as well as the orchid there is a deep feeling of being connected to nature in this small portal. It is that feeling that will draw people to make the effort to step up their husbandry.

So, what can we do? Make gorgeous environments. Simple as that. Make environments that people desire to aspire to and that connect them with nature. And this is more than just flowery language. It is literally the core of what drives me to do what I do. Looking at everything I do, it is putting pieces in place that help the community achieve this. I want us to be creating windows into nature that make the dart frog people envious. Considering how incredible that community’s cages are that is a tall order, but it is a great target to shoot for!

 

[Hashtag ChamLife]

...
With all this said, the one thing that will justify, in the community’s minds, a switch in everything they have “grown up” with is seeing gorgeous naturalistic environments with a vibrant, healthy chameleon slinking about the shadows. A huge benefit of bringing a chameleon into our home is that we have a slice of nature. Sure, we can be fascinated by a chameleon sitting in a cage, but deep down, we know it is merely a caged dragon and that it is a fish out of water. But when they see a lushly planted environment and the chameleon fits in just as well as the orchid there is a deep feeling of being connected to nature in this small portal. It is that feeling that will draw people to make the effort to step up their husbandry.

So, what can we do? Make gorgeous environments. Simple as that. Make environments that people desire to aspire to and that connect them with nature. And this is more than just flowery language. It is literally the core of what drives me to do what I do. Looking at everything I do, it is putting pieces in place that help the community achieve this. I want us to be creating windows into nature that make the dart frog people envious. Considering how incredible that community’s cages are that is a tall order, but it is a great target to shoot for!

This. Well said.

This is pretty much how I try and approach my keeping, to bring a slice of nature in, replicating all the intricacies of it. For me, living in Florida, I have a slight advantage as my cham room is a "Florida room" where I can open the windows and replicate their natural habitat fairly easily.

To add to the discussion a bit - though I don't bring nearly the experience - I have been toying with the concept of "100%" overnight humidity. I've been able to, with use of a fogger and a humidifier, have my windows dripping with moisture. Since the first night, as the temps were in the 30s, I've taken to opening a window of each side of the room to create the much needed "chimney effect". I don't necessarily use any tools to tell me when the air is stagnant, but rather I can taste, smell and feel when it is.

The biggest factor is no matter if you have a greenhouse, a room, or an enclosure, you just can compete with nature. The air exchange is infinite in nature. I think you are correct when you say it's not JUST heat or stagnation, but the stress on the immune system. But, reducing the stressors will help prevent any number of issues.

Now, in my exact case, I can tell you most definitely that my chams drink 75%+ less since I've been upping the humidity. However, I recently had a nice bloom of grain mites that came in with some dry gecko food so my experiment has been delayed.

I can see the point you make about introducing ANY kind of new product. Plus you have to take into account things like individual preferences, geological locations, etc. That is to say, a glass enclosure wouldn't be beneficial in my exact circumstances. At the same time, I personally wouldn't dissuade someone from getting one who lives outside of a tropical climate or who keeps their ac in the 70s year round.

As a general rule, I try to look to nature when I have questions about my keeping. It's good to have folk like yourself to look to for guidance and information. Debate and discussion are the vessels for advancement. I look forward to this thread developing!

 

[Taylor81]

I read alot on here but seldom contribute in the forums. I am more active on FB in a couple of groups. But I wanted to comment on this as I've been working towards these methods strongly.

I have been on a "naturalistic hydration" pursuit for about a year now. I have developed into a quite large system at this point. I run an ultrasonic fogging system with a total of 18 discs. This is lightly pumped by a waterproofed 120mm fan up into over cage duct working that crosses cage tops for distribution out of holes drilled in the bottom working alot like an AC system so to speak.

I started smaller until making some personal observations while checking on things during the beginning stages of this pursuit. The observation made was actual swallowing at night. The only thought that came to mind was a swallowing of the moisture that had built up in the nasal cavity, effectively making the chameleon drink at night. I believe without a doubt this is exactly how things happen in nature even tho I have no science to back it, I have seen real fog just like anyone has. I'm currently looking into trying to get this on film but I think this is what happens and why in the wild they are seldom seen drinking.

Things I have learned is airflow is a major factor in doing this, I run 4 different fans on different timed intervals to disturb air, the gentle breeze my ductwork makes Is also disturbing the air. These fans run alot during the daytime and less but still intermittent at night to disturb air and prevent stagnation. I also do fresh air exchanges with outside air (indoor keeper) atleast once a day.

Another note, bacteria can get airborne quite easily. So higher heats cause more evaporation causing what's on surfaces to get airborne easier, and more bacteria in the air as a whole... the lack of circulation causes this bacteria to build up within the stagnant air. I think this is a large culprit to RI's. The build up of the bacteria that had become airborne and no airflow moving it out of the area is the recipe for disaster I think.

I have been in this practice for about a year now and have only grown my fogging capability stronger with only positives and no RI , so as long as I positives in my methods and intend fully to continue this pursuit.

 

[cyberlocc]

I read alot on here but seldom contribute in the forums. I am more active on FB in a couple of groups. But I wanted to comment on this as I've been working towards these methods strongly.

I have been on a "naturalistic hydration" pursuit for about a year now. I have developed into a quite large system at this point. I run an ultrasonic fogging system with a total of 18 discs. This is lightly pumped by a waterproofed 120mm fan up into over cage duct working that crosses cage tops for distribution out of holes drilled in the bottom working alot like an AC system so to speak.

I started smaller until making some personal observations while checking on things during the beginning stages of this pursuit. The observation made was actual swallowing at night. The only thought that came to mind was a swallowing of the moisture that had built up in the nasal cavity, effectively making the chameleon drink at night. I believe without a doubt this is exactly how things happen in nature even tho I have no science to back it, I have seen real fog just like anyone has. I'm currently looking into trying to get this on film but I think this is what happens and why in the wild they are seldom seen drinking.

Things I have learned is airflow is a major factor in doing this, I run 4 different fans on different timed intervals to disturb air, the gentle breeze my ductwork makes Is also disturbing the air. These fans run alot during the daytime and less but still intermittent at night to disturb air and prevent stagnation. I also do fresh air exchanges with outside air (indoor keeper) atleast once a day.

Another note, bacteria can get airborne quite easily. So higher heats cause more evaporation causing what's on surfaces to get airborne easier, and more bacteria in the air as a whole... the lack of circulation causes this bacteria to build up within the stagnant air. I think this is a large culprit to RI's. The build up of the bacteria that had become airborne and no airflow moving it out of the area is the recipe for disaster I think.

I have been in this practice for about a year now and have only grown my fogging capability stronger with only positives and no RI , so as long as I positives in my methods and intend fully to continue this pursuit.

How and how often do you clean said pipes?

That has always been my biggest concern with "Foggers".

Also do you do anything in the fogger resovoir to keep the water there clean?

What type of water do you use?

Do you circulate the Foggers water supply?

What type of plastic is being used for your Resovoir?


Cool Mist humidifiers, including your ultra Sonic discs. Are very well known, to be extremely dangerous to humans. They vaporize everything. That's fine when you are vaporizing water, however what happens when you vaporize bacteria, mold or Algae. In a non sealed system such that the fogger is by it's very nature, that's a major concern.

https://www.childrenscolorado.org/c...ing/parenting-articles/danger-of-humidifiers/


And I could just be a little overly paranoid, I don't even use Mist Resovoir for that reason (plus it's easier to not have to fill it .). Which is why I ask.

I really wanted to explore the "Swamp" system, however I have been concerned if the tempature reduction caused by it, may be too much. However I do have some thoughts on ways to do it, and may give them a shot.

 

[Taylor81]

How and how often do you clean said pipes?

That has always been my biggest concern with "Foggers".

Also do you do anything in the fogger resovoir to keep the water there clean?

What type of water do you use?

Do you circulate the Foggers water supply?

What type of plastic is being used for your Resovoir?


Cool Mist humidifiers, including your ultra Sonic discs. Are very well known, to be extremely dangerous to humans. They vaporize everything. That's fine when you are vaporizing water, however what happens when you vaporize bacteria, mold or Algae. In a non sealed system such that the fogger is by it's very nature, that's a major concern.

https://www.childrenscolorado.org/c...ing/parenting-articles/danger-of-humidifiers/


And I could just be a little overly paranoid, I don't even use Mist Resovoir for that reason (plus it's easier to not have to fill it .). Which is why I ask.

I really wanted to explore the "Swamp" system, however I have been concerned if the tempature reduction caused by it, may be too much.

The fan system for the ducting runs 24/7 so it dries out all piping during the day as well as continues to help circulate air. If I didn't do this I feel greatly I would in fact have bacterial built up in these lines. But I have inspected them and having the fan push air all day does effectively dry the whole system.

The reservoir and piping is cleaned once a month but I have yet to see any buildup that brings any alarm to me in the reservoir or the piping.
The container is a Sterlite Gasket top tote. Granted I am not testing this in a lab but I havent seen anything that brings any alarm to me. The water is from a reverse osmosis system supplied in via float switch. This has been done for about a year now.

Yes sir I 100% understand everything gets vaporized and I took great care and monitored things at night as well as inspected pretty much daily when I first started moving into these practices. It started much smaller, this is what I have grown into at this point.

If I was having some sort of build up in the system I am sure I'd have seen some sort of problem or a catastrophe with my chameleons health. All has been positives and good healthy chams that I have worked my way up to misting less and less as a result thru observation of urate quality.

 

[cyberlocc]

The fan system for the ducting runs 24/7 so it dries out all piping during the day as well as continues to help circulate air. If I didn't do this I feel greatly I would in fact have bacterial built up in these lines. But I have inspected them and having the fan push air all day does effectively dry the whole system.

The reservoir and piping is cleaned once a month but I have yet to see any buildup that brings any alarm to me in the reservoir or the piping.
The container is a Sterlite Gasket top tote. Granted I am not testing this in a lab but I havent seen anything that brings any alarm to me. The water is from a reverse osmosis system supplied in via float switch. This has been done for about a year now.

Yes sir I 100% understand everything gets vaporized and I took great care and monitored things at night as well as inspected pretty much daily when I first started moving into these practices. It started much smaller, this is what I have grown into at this point.

If I was having some sort of build up in the system I am sure I'd have seen some sort of problem or a catastrophe with my chameleons health. All has been positives and good healthy chams that I have worked my way up to misting less and less as a result thru observation of urate quality.

"The Fan system runs 24/7" Could you show us this system, what do you mean by fan system? Where are the fans located? Is there more than 1 that feeds the Lines? I know you said 4, I thought you meant fans in the room, not fans in the duct system.

Do you use fully screen cages? As if your running the Fan for the Fogger 24/7 that will still raise daytime humidity as well, not as much as the fogger will, but running the air over the body of water through the day, is acting as a swamp cooler of sorts.

 

[Taylor81]

"The Fan system runs 24/7" Could you show us this system, what do you mean by fan system? Where are the fans located? Is there more than 1 that feeds the Lines? I know you said 4, I thought you meant fans in the room, not fans in the duct system.

Do you use fully screen cages? As if your running the Fan for the Fogger 24/7 that will still raise daytime humidity as well, not as much as the fogger will, but running the air over the body of water through the day, is acting as a swamp cooler of sorts.

Yes indeed it is and does keep humidity slightly higher but not by much. My caging sees between 50% and 70% humidity during the day.

Sorry for the misunderstanding on the fan. Yes I run 4 fans within the room itself. The fan that powers the fogger system is a 120mm computer fan essentially that has been waterproofed.

The fan currently has an improvised dust cover as you will see pictured. I'm working on something a bit more permanent as this is all DIY past the electronics.

 

[Taylor81]

"The Fan system runs 24/7" Could you show us this system, what do you mean by fan system? Where are the fans located? Is there more than 1 that feeds the Lines? I know you said 4, I thought you meant fans in the room, not fans in the duct system.

Do you use fully screen cages? As if your running the Fan for the Fogger 24/7 that will still raise daytime humidity as well, not as much as the fogger will, but running the air over the body of water through the day, is acting as a swamp cooler of sorts.

Also my caging is custom built myself, solid sides, screen fronts and tops. I house mainly Parsonii. But also have some Panthers.

 

[cyberlocc]

Yes indeed it is and does keep humidity slightly higher but not by much. My caging sees between 50% and 70% humidity during the day.

Sorry for the misunderstanding on the fan. Yes I run 4 fans within the room itself. The fan that powers the fogger system is a 120mm computer fan essentially that has been waterproofed.

The fan currently has an improvised dust cover as you will see pictured. I'm working on something a bit more permanent as this is all DIY past the electronics.

I am aware what a House of Hydro Mist Maker is . For filters, I got you!

https://www.amazon.com/120mm-Part-F...uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl

Also when that fan fails, no offense to HoH, but those fans are not great. They are cool that they are "Waterproof", but they are just cheap Chinese not very well built fans sprayed with a Waterproof coating. HoH doesn't make them, and I am not trying to knock them, but there is much better fans available that will hold up to the humidity, run cooler and quieter, and do a much better job of it. For alot less money. https://www.amazon.com/Noctua-NF-F12-iPPC-2000-IP67/dp/B00KFCRIQM

Those Noctuas, will hold up to the humidity and are designed for high end servers, they will never die lol . One of the best PC fans in the industry, well it is the best, for alot of applications any that involving pure air pushing, once you need SP then there are better options however, but in this case Noctua would be king, and its IP 67 . If you haven't figured it out yet, my other hobby is computers, and have built and maintained alot of High end Servers, and Watercooled Computers .

Shameless plug, but I got up to 69th place in 3D Mark Overclocking Leaderboards last year, the image is 89th, I have the 69th somewhere, but this one was on my Fbook wall and easier to grab . So I know a thing or 2 about Computer Fans .

Sorry for the mini Derail, but it is kind of applicable to the thread .

 

[Taylor81]

I am aware what a House of Hydro Mist Maker is . For filters, I got you!

https://www.amazon.com/120mm-Part-F...uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl

Also when that fan fails, no offense to HoH, but those fans are not great. They are cool that they are "Waterproof", but they are just cheap Chinese not very well built fans sprayed with a Waterproof coating. HoH doesn't make them, and I am not trying to knock them, but there is much better fans available that will hold up to the humidity, run cooler and quieter, and do a much better job of it. For alot less money. https://www.amazon.com/Noctua-NF-F12-iPPC-2000-IP67/dp/B00KFCRIQM

Those Noctuas, will hold up to the humidity and are designed for high end servers, they will never die lol . One of the best PC fans in the industry, well it is the best, for alot of applications any that involving pure air pushing, once you need SP then there are better options however, but in this case Noctua would be king, and its IP 67 .

I've been happy with the HoH. Didnt expect them to not get recognized I just hadnt named them. Yea I'm aware they are basically a vendor for most of what they sell not a manufacturer. Thanks greatly for the filter link I was looking for exactly this. And as for the fan too I'll give it a go when this one fails which I didn't expect it to last forever but it has gone strong for a year so far. I just bought both of those you linked. I'll have the fan now for future replacement when my current goes down.

 

[cyberlocc]

I've been happy with the HoH. Didnt expect them to not get recognized I just hadnt named them. Yea I'm aware they are basically a vendor for most of what they sell not a manufacturer. Thanks greatly for the filter link I was looking for exactly this. And as for the fan too I'll give it a go when this one fails which I didn't expect it to last forever but it has gone strong for a year so far. I just bought both of those you linked. I'll have the fan now for future replacement when my current goes down.

Ya my fogger trials have been HOH based as well, great company to work with and great products .

How many cages are you pushing 12 disc with? quite alot I would reckon? Well parsons so likely big lol.

Ya those filters are GREAT. I use them for my projectors cabinet and my Overclocking Test Bench (its Aluminium), its so nice to be able to clean them without having to unscrew the filter, when not possessing a magnetic surface for the likes of alot of filters.

 

[Kaizen]

I am taking no stance on this debate whatsoever, but I'm just wondering whether we're all on the same page here. At 77F, air holding 10 grams of water/kilo of air = 50% RH (so 100% RH would be 20 g/kg water:air). If we drop that temp down to 59F, the very same amount of water dissolved in the air = 100%RH. So, if your house is at 77 during the day, at 50% RH, and you drop your nighttime temps down to 59, then you have achieved 100% RH with out doing anything extra. Note also that even if the RH during the day a 77f were to drop to 35% (7g/kg water:air), that very same amount of water:air would amount to 75% RH at night, provided we're all dropping our chams down to the 59-60f mark at night.

 

[cyberlocc]

I am taking no stance on this debate whatsoever, but I'm just wondering whether we're all on the same page here. At 77F, air holding 10 grams of water/kilo of air = 50% RH (so 100% RH would be 20 g/kg water:air). If we drop that temp down to 59F, the very same amount of water dissolved in the air = 100%RH. So, if your house is at 77 during the day, at 50% RH, and you drop your nighttime temps down to 59, then you have achieved 100% RH with out doing anything extra. Note also that even if the RH during the day a 77f were to drop to 35% (7g/kg water:air), that very same amount of water:air would amount to 75% RH at night, provided we're all dropping our chams down to the 59-60f mark at night.

Good point. However, I don't think many have 50% humidity at 77, nor do I think they are dropping to 59.

Right now it's winter, so heating will lower the humidity come summer alot of folks, will be cooling with AC so again dropping with humidity.

Most folks houses are going to be kept around 70 and 30% - 50% that is the "what humans prefer" range.

My cage gradients from 70-72f with 80%ish at the floor (bioactive) to 85-87f (ambient) at the top with 40% ish.

At night, the top is 62-65, but I don't use screen Cages. The humidity at that time is 60-70%. Again that's the top, so seeing the biggest swing. Lower down, more humidity to 90% plus. Lower down, also sees a drop in temps, down to 58-59, soil wet plants, and being an enclosed cage allow this for me, but it won't happen for most screen keepers.

 

[Taylor81]

Ya my fogger trials have been HOH based as well, great company to work with and great products .

How many cages are you pushing 12 disc with? quite alot I would reckon? Well parsons so likely big lol.

Ya those filters are GREAT. I use them for my projectors cabinet and my Overclocking Test Bench (its Aluminium), its so nice to be able to clean them without having to unscrew the filter, when not possessing a magnetic surface for the likes of alot of filters.

This is currently over 6 large custom cages and 2 standard 2x2x4

But I have the ability to fog several more which are coming slowly in the future.

I have a total of 18 discs. The 6 disc and the 12 XL systems. My fog output is quite thick and each pipe gets several holes across each cage top. So many points of exit.