Need a little advice

HairyScaryMark said:
I am led to believe it's the combination of Calcium in the diet with UVb radiation which allows the production of Vitamin D3. (I probably should check this.)

The problem I have with a lot of this advice is I don't see real science backing up the suggestions, which are often taught as the only way to do things. I've seen figures about calcium/phosphorus ratios and suchlike but that still leaves plenty of questions unanswered. How much D3 does a chameleon need? How much can it absorb? How effective are supplements in providing this? Then would Vitamin A be more effectively (and safely) provided through plant matter containing this nutrient rather than an artificial supplement? I've seen useful information in comparing brands and suchlike but this still doesn't say how much is actually absorbed by the chameleon.

Human nutrition still isn't an 'exact science' that we know every single detail of. From my perspective, this calls into question how definitive an answer can be given in relation to chameleons (an animal which a lot less is known about)?

Then there's a lot of variables the advice doesn't account for. How much of the supplement will still be on the feeder insect by the time the chameleon eats it? Then not every chameleon eats the same amount of insects so it may not be appropriate to use the same quantity of supplements? Then does a Meller Chameleon require the same supplementing schedule as a smaller species of chameleon?

The lady who owns my local exotic pet shop, who is a Zoologist told me she only sells pure calcium as it's a lot safer than it is to use other supplements to which there is a risk of an animal overdosing on. Would this not be a sensible approach when giving advice to inexperienced keepers?

I'm not calling people's expertise into question here, I just would like more solid answers based on real evidence.


In relation to lights, Zoo Med isn't available at all locally to me. I'm led to believe that some UK shops have had problems with suppliers of Zoo Med. Arcadia is available at similar price range Zoo Med on this website and is rated as higher output by that test.

http://www.petclubuk.com/sp/reptile...strip-lights/arcadia-d3-reptile-lamp-18-/2034
http://www.petclubuk.com/sp/reptile...hts/zoo-med-reptisun-50-uvb-18-x-1---15w/2731

I also heard people say that a linear UV strip wont give output as high as the sun (even in the shade).
Click to expand...

More isn't better when it comes to UV. A 10.0 being used without a meter to figure out the lamps output at the basking sport and adjusting the levels of UVB (raising the light higher above cage to decrease UVB levels) is not a good idea. People tell other people to use the 5.0 because it has done so well for so many other people.

The reason for using a calcium with D3, is that we can't tell if they do or don't get enough of the right UVB from artificial lighting. It is a pretty good bet that inside lighting does not provide everything the sun does. So to be on the safe side it is a good idea to supplement. that is what these dusting are... supplementing the diet we think the chameleon would have in the wild. Since the food we offer isn't very diverse, how can we ensure they get what they need? by adding supplements. The sticky tongues supplements have been tested by analyzing a dead chameleon to see what contents are in the body... I don't know the whole process but there was a fairly scientific method to determine what minerals and vitamins should be added.

A chameleon should make it's own D3 by being exposed to UVB.... But because it isn't natural sunlight, and we can't be sure we give them all of the spectrum the sun can, we add some more D3 to their diet to fill in the gaps.

The reason it isn't a great idea to use D3 all of the time, is the over dose factor.

Here is how it works in the body... Link to UV Guide.
 
I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with using a Reptisun 5.0 linear but I've yet to see one person suggest anyone buys a Arcadia D3 lamp despite it performing slightly better in the test than the Zoo Med Reptisun 5.0.... Coincidently, I may buy one tomorrow as my local reptile shop stocks Arcadia products but not Zoo Med.

The problem I have with some of the advice is although a lot of it sensible enough it's still in part based on educated guesses of what a chameleon does or does not need. I understand people have done these things successfully for many years but that doesn't mean it's the only correct way of doing things. For example. Craig Anderson uses glass terrariums, Exo Terra compact UV lights and a substrate for some of his Chameleons. This goes against all the 'conventional wisdom' on this forum but still has great success with this setup and he's by far not the only one.

I've even seen people post the causes of deaths of their chameleon on here when I don't believe they have enough information to support it (not in all cases but certainly in some). It is impossible to accurately determine the cause of death of any animal without performing an autopsy and there is still no guarantee that would be conclusive. Perhaps educated guesses are often correct but I believe they should be presented as educated guesses rather than the unequivocal truth.
 
Havent read the thread, so sorry if Im off mark.

Eyes closed can sometimes be related to lighting or inferior diet (just crickets poorly gutloaded and inadequately supplemented, for example).


Info on Lighting:
List of feeder bug options (the more variety, the less chance of boredom and better chance of providing the necessary nutrients):
Info on how to gutload (feed) the bugs:
Info on supplements:
A vet visit is not usuall a bad idea when you have a concern about the chameleons health. Assuming the vet is qualified
 
HairyScaryMark said:
I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with using a Reptisun 5.0 linear but I've yet to see one person suggest anyone buys a Arcadia D3 lamp despite it performing slightly better in the test than the Zoo Med Reptisun 5.0

I don't have anything against the Arcadia bulb, but I just haven't seen one available in my region. If it does perform better and you can get them, go for it!

As hobbyist forum members most of what we can advise IS based on hard earned experience. Some people consider themselves experienced after keeping one cham for 6 months...others wouldn't dream of dispensing advice until they have successfully bred multiple generations of chams. We can't control that, nor can we control who gets to post what. Anyone reading forum posts will find that over all, the more sound advice is that which multiple keepers use with success, and pass on. One big problem any public forum is going to have is that everyone lives in hugely different locales. What works for one may not work for another. We also can't control that. Anyone looking at a forum for advice has got to develop some sophistication...one odd suggestion in the face of many others that differ has just got to be suspect. Conventional wisdom has it's place for complete beginners to start off with. Some of us are wise enough to experiment and test new ideas...most of us are not and are only interested in the basic common acceptable methods. For example: solid sided cages may work just fine for some, and nothing says you can't change your mind about them, but screen may be safest for someone without any experience. Do we really want to see newbies buy chams at pet shops and force them into a 40 gallon glass fish tank on the livingroom table? No, that's a return to the cham dark ages.The problem I have with some of the advice is although a lot of it sensible enough it's still in part based on educated guesses of what a chameleon does or does not need. I understand people have done these things successfully for many years but that doesn't mean it's the only correct way of doing things. For example. Craig Anderson uses glass terrariums, Exo Terra compact UV lights and a substrate for some of his Chameleons. This goes against all the 'conventional wisdom' on this forum but still has great success with this setup and he's by far not the only one.

I've even seen people post the causes of deaths of their chameleon on here when I don't believe they have enough information to support it (not in all cases but certainly in some). It is impossible to accurately determine the cause of death of any animal without performing an autopsy and there is still no guarantee that would be conclusive. Perhaps educated guesses are often correct but I believe they should be presented as educated guesses rather than the unequivocal truth.
Click to expand...

You are completely right about stating causes of death. Considering how many chams die in human hands every year and how few of their stories are "exposed" to a public forum, the majority of people who lose one DON'T pontificate about the cause. I've only lost a few chams thankfully, and because I do get them experienced vet care as soon as a problem shows up I know what lead to death...but I do get them necropsied WITH tissue analysis. Two who died were mysteries and the necropsy didn't help much. Should you necropsy a cham? Certainly! But, we are always going to hear the sob stories about no money to do it. To me, with my steady income and the priority I place on vet care I can afford to do it. I would never keep any pet without experienced vet care. It gets so I don't want to hear the complaints about having to drive two hours to reach one...I have to FLY to reach mine.
 
Arcadia products aren't sold in the states. This is why you don't hear most of us talking about it.

You mess this up a lot, his name is CHRIS Anderson.

You make a lot of asumptions. Do you know what chams he keeps in the glass cages with substrate? Maybe some of those chams are ok to be kept that way. He also talks about how he uses a meter to be sure he is using the compact lamps safely. Most people don't have the understand or tools to do this. Do the general advice is to not mess around with it.


HairyScaryMark said:
I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with using a Reptisun 5.0 linear but I've yet to see one person suggest anyone buys a Arcadia D3 lamp despite it performing slightly better in the test than the Zoo Med Reptisun 5.0.... Coincidently, I may buy one tomorrow as my local reptile shop stocks Arcadia products but not Zoo Med.

The problem I have with some of the advice is although a lot of it sensible enough it's still in part based on educated guesses of what a chameleon does or does not need. I understand people have done these things successfully for many years but that doesn't mean it's the only correct way of doing things. For example. Craig Anderson uses glass terrariums, Exo Terra compact UV lights and a substrate for some of his Chameleons. This goes against all the 'conventional wisdom' on this forum but still has great success with this setup and he's by far not the only one.

I've even seen people post the causes of deaths of their chameleon on here when I don't believe they have enough information to support it (not in all cases but certainly in some). It is impossible to accurately determine the cause of death of any animal without performing an autopsy and there is still no guarantee that would be conclusive. Perhaps educated guesses are often correct but I believe they should be presented as educated guesses rather than the unequivocal truth.
Click to expand...
 
You are completely right about stating causes of death. Considering how many chams die in human hands every year and how few of their stories are "exposed" to a public forum, the majority of people who lose one DON'T pontificate about the cause. I've only lost a few chams thankfully, and because I do get them experienced vet care as soon as a problem shows up I know what lead to death...but I do get them necropsied WITH tissue analysis. Two who died were mysteries and the necropsy didn't help much. Should you necropsy a cham? Certainly! But, we are always going to hear the sob stories about no money to do it. To me, with my steady income and the priority I place on vet care I can afford to do it. I would never keep any pet without experienced vet care. It gets so I don't want to hear the complaints about having to drive two hours to reach one...I have to FLY to reach mine. /B]
 
Please excuse my messed up response and quotes. I am still learning how to quote sections of a post!
 
well it is cold these days in my area and I cannot open the window.
I have a Reptiglow bulb for the tube bulb I heard that it doesn't produce the right kind of uvb rays. I have a half gallon dripper and I set it to the slowest drip cycle so the water hangs there for a few seconds and then falls.
he doesn't have a bubble it just goes closed.
I feed him crickets dusted in calcium with D3
I haven't dusted the bugs in a while cause I had lost the dusting stuff. so I've been giving him dusted bugs every 2 or so days
I normally just feed the crickets carrots. (is he getting too much vitamin A?)
here is a picture of his eye closed.
I am holding him now and he seems alert and both his eyes are opened.
he opened the closed one a minute after I got him on me
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/5271/p1010372o.jpg
 
Do not use calcium with D3 all the time, and use greens like kale and collards. I'm sorry I can't give you more on the vitamin A thing, I just can't remember what happens with an overdose, or build up of it in their systems.
 
ok. well my older bro says it might be his enviroment since I haven't rearranged it in a while he says the he might've memorized his cage layout and only needs one eye. whe n I took him out of the cage his eye opened and he was alert. I think I might need to rearrange it but using only 1 eye to navigate around isn't too good for him now is it?
 
You said..."what am I to do? it is too cold to actually open the window"...since you can't provide UVB from the sunlight this time of year, you need to provide enough UVB from an appropriate UVB light or from a combination of a UVB light and enough D3 supplement to make up for what he isn't getting from the light. The most often recommended light is the Repti-sun 5.0 long linear fluorescent tube light. It has not been reported to cause eye problems, etc. and seems to give them enough UVB along with dusting twice a month lightly with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder.

The chameleon also needs appropriate temperatures to aid in digestion...thus it plays a part in nutrition.

In addition to that powder, its important to dust at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder to help make up for the usually poor ratio of calcium to phos. found in most feeder insects.

I also use a vitamin powder twice a month that has a beta carotene source of vitamin A. Beta carotene (prOformed) sources of vitamin A won't build up in the system like prEformed vitamin A can...however, there is controversy as to whether any/all chameleons can convert it, so some people give their chameleons a little prEformed vitamin A once in a while. Excess prEformed vitamin A can interfere with the D3 and push the chameleon towards MBD so its important not to overdo it.

You said..."I normally just feed the crickets carrots. (is he getting too much vitamin A?)"...the vitamin A from vegetables is prOformed and can not build up in the system. You should gutload the crickets with a wider variety of greens and veggies though. You can use dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, celery leaves, etc.

Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are important for good bone health and in other systems in the chameleon so its important that they are in balance. To balance them you need to look at your supplements, what you feed the insects and what you feed to the chameleon.

All of this doesn't really address the eye issue...it could be from the light or it could be from something else. I'm sorry I can't help you with that other than to suggest taking the light off for a few days and/or using another one.

Good luck!
 
ok thanks for all the help. I messaged Care4URchameleon on youtube and he said about the same thing I should do.
I took a look at him this morning and his eye seemed to be open and alert but I have the light off I am going to get him another light today so he doesn't just have the heating lamp on him.
what about Grapes to gutload them with?
I was thinking I could do a schedule like 1 veggie 1 fruitand switch it by day
 
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