New adoption/rescue Beardie advice appreciated

D

DocFox

New Member
This Beardie is somehow disabled, and I don't quite get it yet. This is my first Beardie, so any advice is welcome. Just brought home today.
On the pictures you'll see a scar on his back. Previous owner called it a battle scar from another Beardie. I believe it's actually a burn and that the tank had been knocked over. Evidence to support this theory= cracked glass, a whole in the screen lid, and a melted spot in the plastic on the screen hold, both of which are coincidentally about the same size as his scar.

His eyes look good. He's alert and makes eye contact, has good posture with his head. But his legs don't function properly. He can make scurrying actions that are quick and fairly coordinated, but doesn't seem to get any traction, so doesn't really move much distance without a great deal of effort. It's like a wind up toy who's feet don't touch or something.

I'm wondering if it's some kind of spinal injury from the suspected accident, or malnutrition.

I offered water first thing from a dropper, and he willing drank about 2ML. Offered several more times, with much less interest, just a drop or two each time. Then I dropped a superworm near his head. His head tracked right away, but there was no interest. Also no interest in Dubia.

Let him rest an hour or two, then we had a bath. Holding him, it's like there's no there there- like empty skin. So even though his shape doesn't look bad, he's for sure dehydrated, and I'm thinking malnourished.

Fresh out of bath measured 11.5 inched nose to tip of tail; 5.5 inches nose to vent; 146 grams.

Offered veggies. Ate a little kale but not muchbasically 2 good bites.

He was being fed mealworms and fluker's buffet blend. {oy} Well, at least those caked on streaks of the stuff came off in the bath with much rubbing.

Let him rest a couple of hours.

Removed sand, put down paper.

Have basking lights and UV all set up for him, which he hasn't had in some time. He came with a heating log. I've always heard any heated items are bad. But do folks use them for Beardies? I put it on the timer with the rest of the lights so he can cool down tonight.

Oh, and when you hold him, he twitches and alternates between stillness and shivering. He can't hold on to hands or shirt. But all feet move, but I'm not so sure about toes. All toes present, toenails look good.

I have a pound or so of Supers, Dubia by the hundreds, and crickets will be ready in a couple weeks, so as soon as he eats, he'll have all he wants. I'm thinking about some baby food... what do people think about that?

Hornworms? Butterworms? What will put on good weight quickest?

Other thoughts?




Here's some links to facebook photos and video:
http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?v=10200762503406535&set=vb.1281007080&type=2&theater
Video- I'm offering water with a dropper. He (I think he) drank about 2ML earlier.

Photos:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10200762503406535&set=vb.1281007080&type=2&theater#!/photo.php?fbid=10200761909071677&set=a.2111630311937.134089.1281007080&type=1&theater
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10200762503406535&set=vb.1281007080&type=2&theater#!/photo.php?fbid=10200761902991525&set=a.2111630311937.134089.1281007080&type=1&theater
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10200762503406535&set=vb.1281007080&type=2&theater#!/photo.php?fbid=10200761898431411&set=a.2111630311937.134089.1281007080&type=1&theater
 
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Hello! Do you know how big the cage is?? Its great that he(?) Is drinking. If you are unsure of sex, its fairly easy to sex them. Right above the vent, if male, will have two bumps, if female, only one bump is present. You said he is malnourished, so getting him eating asap is important...try giving him some fresh fruits, maybe a wax worm, or phoenix worm, in my experience (which I only have one beardie so take this part with a grain) sometimes they won't go for horned worms or silkies. My girl just ripped his head off and left him there. As for the baby food, if he doesn't eat any of the veggies/fruit (strawberries, kale, collard greens-note that they need a high variety of fresh fruits and veggies and that strawberries and kale should not be used at every feeding) and you think his situation is dire enough go ahead with baby food. I had a second beardie who wouldn't eat/was very ill and I gave him sweet peas squash and sweet potato babyfood mixed together, along with some pedialyte and liquid calcium. Get a syringe from the drug store or pharmacy at Walmart. Tell them you have a sick pet and need it and they will give it to you:) oh and I almost forgot... DON'T use the heat log! It will burn him!! They don't understand when to move because they like being hot and rely on their environment to warm them up.

It won't let me view your pictures, so even without seeing him I highly recommend a vet asap.

What is your basking temp? Ambient temp? How many gallons is the cage? Is your UVB light 10.0? I will help you best I can, but you might PM crocky. She has beardies and is super smart. Best of luck!!!
 
Updates and answers

Hello!
Thank you for responding.

First answering your question, then will give an update:

He's in 20gal long tank. Fine for him now, but starting to look for bigger. Given his mobility issues, if he is permanently damages, he won't need anything bigger. It takes his great effort to get from one side of the tank to the other.

Definately Boy.

I unplugged the log, but left it in so he can bask on it. He's able to get on top of it, which is a plus. Right now have 95 basking 74 ambient. It's take me a few days to get the light distances just right. And given his mobility issues, I want to make sure that cooler isn't too far away.

Right now I have a 5.0 UVB on him, just has a spare tube from the chams. Will be ordering a 10.0 this weekend.

I'm uploading to youtube as I type so folks can see that facebook won't let them.

So the really good news is when I got to the office this morning (I work from home and all the reps are in my office), he was sitting at his food dish waiting. He had a pretty darn good appetite, and in 20 minutes ate six 3/4" dubia, 2 medium supers, and 5 large supers. I dusted everything pretty heavily with both calcium and multi vitamin.

The bad news is that he's not capable of catching the food on his own. You'll see on the videos that both walking and bending his head down aren't working properly.

He was un-interested in kale, peas or carrots, and when I got back from the store, it did not look like he grazed any while I was gone.

He's accepting water well. Given that he ate I opted not to buy baby food. I bought collard, mustard, acorn squash, bell pepper, apples, and a bananna (thought the potasium might help rehydrate). Have not offered these yet, haven't been home long.

He ate 3 more supers a few minutes ago.

I found these rubber matts for sinks that have a square raised pattern on then and little round holes about the size of a hole punch. I thought it might help him become mobile, and miraculously, it does. He's able to get just a little traction to propell him forward.

No sign of poop yet.
: <

Hopefully the video links to youtube will work.
This is from last night:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1EsL2Sc76Y

These two are this morning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOTVGQDnhcM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP9jCIVPo7o
 
Just watching him is heartbreaking. Beardies should be all over the place.

There is a dragon rescue place, that has wonderful information. It is called Beautiful Dragons. I order all my microscope supplies from them.

For now I would work with him eating and pooping. Any time I put one of my dragons in warm water, a poop was almost a guarantee. Smell is enough to gag you.:( Can he not even swim in the water? If so that little guy has some serious problems and will need to see a vet. He may have eaten some of the substrate and is impacted. Hopefully quality time in very warm water will help. Move him around like he is swimming while you hold him. A drop on mineral oil on a feeder may also help.

I do not know what is wrong with him. I am just offering help for the easy problem. If he is impacted it could be putting pressure on a nerve. Very possibly he has some major issues from the fall. I have had dragons jump out of my hands and drop 4 ft with out any problems, so I hate to think what may have happened to your new guy.

Also when he opens his mouth for a worm or what ever, try to get a bite of greens in his mouth. After they are adults they need more of their diet to be greens than other feeders.

Let me know how he is doing. Hoping for the best for both of you.
 
DocFox said:
Hello!
Thank you for responding.

First answering your question, then will give an update:

He's in 20gal long tank. Fine for him now, but starting to look for bigger. Given his mobility issues, if he is permanently damages, he won't need anything bigger. It takes his great effort to get from one side of the tank to the other.

Definately Boy.

I unplugged the log, but left it in so he can bask on it. He's able to get on top of it, which is a plus. Right now have 95 basking 74 ambient. It's take me a few days to get the light distances just right. And given his mobility issues, I want to make sure that cooler isn't too far away.

Right now I have a 5.0 UVB on him, just has a spare tube from the chams. Will be ordering a 10.0 this weekend.

I'm uploading to youtube as I type so folks can see that facebook won't let them.

So the really good news is when I got to the office this morning (I work from home and all the reps are in my office), he was sitting at his food dish waiting. He had a pretty darn good appetite, and in 20 minutes ate six 3/4" dubia, 2 medium supers, and 5 large supers. I dusted everything pretty heavily with both calcium and multi vitamin.

The bad news is that he's not capable of catching the food on his own. You'll see on the videos that both walking and bending his head down aren't working properly.

He was un-interested in kale, peas or carrots, and when I got back from the store, it did not look like he grazed any while I was gone.

He's accepting water well. Given that he ate I opted not to buy baby food. I bought collard, mustard, acorn squash, bell pepper, apples, and a bananna (thought the potasium might help rehydrate). Have not offered these yet, haven't been home long.

He ate 3 more supers a few minutes ago.

I found these rubber matts for sinks that have a square raised pattern on then and little round holes about the size of a hole punch. I thought it might help him become mobile, and miraculously, it does. He's able to get just a little traction to propell him forward.

No sign of poop yet.
: <

Hopefully the video links to youtube will work.
This is from last night:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1EsL2Sc76Y

These two are this morning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOTVGQDnhcM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP9jCIVPo7o
Click to expand...

Okay, first things first. Your temp is too low. For his age it should be 105 (+/- a degree or two is fine).
The way he moves his back legs, makes me wonder if he is impacted...I have read that if they are impacted or eat something too big for them, that it can paralyze the back legs. Given that I think he is impacted, I would urge you not to give any more super worms, as this can add to the issue at hand, actually I would almost say do babyfood if all you can offer is superworms. I see the injury on his back, and it is hard for me to tell, is it a burn or more like an indentation?

Also, I would still at least get a 40gal if he is special needs for the rest of his life, as it gives more of a temperature range. If he is somehow miraculously healed, then at least a 60gal.

Hoping the best for both of you.
 
Thanks, Laurie

Oh I know, Laurie. When my eyes first tracked on the fact that his "scar" was the same size as the plastic burn, my body didn't know whether to cry of throw up. It's just awful.

When I first put him in his bath last night, there was a great deal of scurrying. I took it for panic, and put my hand under his head, and he calmed right down. No poop last night either. But there were some motions that I couldn't tell what they were, sort of a heavy breathing, but a great deal of constricting down his sides, and some rasping sounds that I would have taken for mucous in his lungs. But there's no sign at all of any mucous around mouth or nose.

When he was in the sand, he did a great deal of scurrying. The coordination of legs looked right, but he just couldn't get any traction. I think it might be wrists and toes that aren't functioning. But anatomically, they look fine, not like they have been crushed, or showing signs of withering in any way.

He scurried on the paper too, but paper was harder for him to move, as you can see on the videos. The rubber matts make a huge difference.

I felt around his belly, and there's no swelling as if he's constipated, in fact, it's all very empty feeling, and his skin is horribly loose.

He's had a lot to eat today, so I would expect a bowel movement tomorrow. I'll bath him again today, and see what happens. But I honestly don't know how long it's been since he had a decent meal.

What is so odd, and also so very hopeful, is how alert and bright-eyed he is. I also wonder, given they called him "scooter" if he's maybe been this way a long time, and the burn was just an added injury unrelated to the mobility thing. We'll know more when we get him properly hydrated and fed up.
 
Thanks squeekz1992

Repositioning the lights to adjust temp upward. It'll take me a couple of days to get it perfect- this is a new tank and new location. It was up to 104 by about 9 this morning, so I moved the lights away a bit.

Will stick to the dubias for a few days until we get a bowel movement. I ordered some phoenix works, waxworms, and fly larvae from west coast roaches today. My crickets are just 1 or 2 instars shy of a good size for him this week. But they'll pop up soon.

Thanks for the input.
 
Wow, so sorry your little guy is not feeling well. Looks like you have gotten sime great advice so far. I suspect this is a result of an injury or/severe malnourishment as well as no UVB for his bones to form correctly. Baby food is just fine, I have fed several young dragons baby food to get them going if they were not eating. Use a Protein base like chicken, mixed with sweet potato. They love the sweet potato not to mention it is good for them. Feed it in a dropper like you did the water. Typically I tempt them by putting dropping a tad on the end of their mouths until they open then it is usually on like donkey kong! Also hornworms are really good to fatten up. Lots of breeders use these for females coming out of brumation just to get them some meat on their bones. Phoenix worms are awesome as well. My guys love butter worms but I would not feed them often. Dubias are a great staple. As for greens, maybe try some escorole, book choy, that may tempt him to eat his greens a little more. I would even add in a little romaine right now until we know it is not a pooping problem. That will add a little more water to the diet. Don't do the romaine to often though, maybe a few days and maybe put it down near him so he does not have to go in the bowl to get it. You can dust his greens a little too. I have not found a dragon yet that could resist some cilantro. You don't want to feed that too often either but good to give them a little boost. I hold it right to their mouths and they take it with a smile on their face.

I agree on holding off on the supers for a little while until you find out what may be going on and like Laurie said warm baths. I would give him a warm bath daily right now until you know he is hydrated. Just enough to cover his vent. They soak water in through their vent. I would do this about 20 minutes a day for the next few days anyway,then once a week. If he cannot hold himself up I would have something in their for him to prop against and closely supervise.

Make sure to get him a 10.0 reptisun linear bulb. Also I would stick with his basking temp about 95 - 100. That should be plenty to help digest. I keep all my guys about 100 with lower gradients on the slate for them to move to. I definitely would not go higher than 105. 103-105 is good for young'ins. As long as the cool side is mid to lower 70's the 20 gallon should be fine but most of the time it is hard to stabilize temps sometimes in a tank that small. If you can then that is great. Once you can figure out what is going on you can upgrade the size then. The less changes you can do righ thow the better. I use larger peices of slate for basking at a slant held up by smaller rock to give them options on temp gradient but the log might be fine as long as he can get comfortable on it.

While he is in the warm bath you can massage his tummy with soft easy strokes from closer to his head towards his tail. Whenever I have had a constipated dragon this alway works. Warm water is usually enough but if not typically paired with easy strokes on his belly from front to back does the trick. Just make sure if he poops in the bath water that you get him out as soon as he is done.

Do you have any history on him other than his name? How long has be been like this etc??? That would certainly be helpful.
Not sure I covered everything but it sounds like you are getting him off to a good start and bless his heart, he looks like he has hard a hard road. So glad he has a loving home. He does look alert which is good! If this is a recent on set I would worry about spinal injury in which case I imagine he is in some pain :(.

Also you may want to put something in their with a little more traction for him to grip on like tile etc. you could also put a small cloth or hand towel in there to give him a soft spot to lay if he feels the need. Just make sure to keep it clean. I have cloth hammocks in my guys cages and they love them.

Keep us updated.
 
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Hurray!

A little poop about 10 seconds into the bath. Not enough, but a good start. And yes, sand. A fair amount of urate, and some stuff the exact color of those food pellets, but not very much of that.

A layer of skin came off that "scar." To answer the question from earlier, it doesn't see to have much indentation, but some. The scales are clearly damaged. It sure looks like a burn scar to me. Nothing there resemble what would have been a bite, there's no line to it at all.

Here's video of the bath, you can see all his legs do move.

And say- is that a photo-sensor pore I see on his head?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSdS9GnHfWU
 
Thanks for the reply, Crocky

So when I first inquired on the ad on craigslist (there was a photo posted), I asked if it had been rehomed yet. The reply I got was 'not yet.' Then the story I got was that it was the roomate's, and he moved out and left it. She was alternating lights with her snake, as his didn't have lights of his own. Feeding him mealworms.

So when we met up (in a public place), she said that there had been another Beardie too, and the roomate took that one. Said the scar was a battle wound from the other beardie. Said I could email if I had any questions.

After I got home and started getting a feel for what was up, I sent a very nonchalant email (didn't want to be accusatory) asking how long the roomate had been gone, and whether they had been housed together, how she watered him and what his favorite food was. I haven't gotten a reply.
 
Update

The bad news: Not very interested in food this morning. Tried to get him to eat a dubia for 3 or 4 minutes, he licked at it once, not not enough to catch it. Dangled romain, zero interest in that. I did get him to take one whitey super worm. I had a second whitey, but he wouldn't eat that.

So then I tried some "gruel" a mixture of sweet potato baby food, a little strawberry flavored pedialite, and a dab of zilla caloric suppliment/appetite stimulant. He did pretty well with that. It was a good consistency to use the pipette, he probably got a good ML.

The good news: Then we had a bath, and in about 3 seconds, a bowel movement. Urate first, then a pencil-wide log about 1 1/4 inch. Still looked like those feeder pellets. I didn't see any insect parts.

I'm feeling good about the gut being functional and not blocked.
 
If he's not interested in the other foods I'd keep up with the babyfood. Its got enough of a sweet taste that it should stimulate him:) I'm glad he went finally!! And he looked a lot better in that video (as far as color!) And that he was moving all legs was a great encouragement:) good luck and keep us posted!!
 
Thanks squeekz1992

I've gotten a total of 4ml of "gruel" into him today and a fair amount of water.
I just did the last feeding for the evening. Then I took him out and handled him for a little while. I put him down on the rug, and he actually can walk on it. I know this does against many ideas of good hygiene, but I just ordered some carpet liner from Amazon. I think he'll just be way more comfortable if he can move around his tank when he wants to. It can't be good for his sense of safety to have the feeling he can't move around.

Oh, and btw, after sitting on the carpet for a little while, he scurried to my hand.
:)
 
I had a rescue beardie years ago that did some of the helpless "scurrying" movements you described. She was totally malnourished and had had no UV lighting. She could not lift herself off the ground or move much at all. She lay in a laundry basket under new lights on my kitchen table for weeks. Her GI tract was full of sand and she had trouble digesting solids. A variety of sweeter baby food with added minerals and vitamins was a sure fire way to keep her eating. It was most of what she could eat for quite a while. I know that lack of calcium inhibits skeletal muscle tone (leaving them sort of collapsed on the ground so they can only slither along on the surface instead of lifting up onto their legs) and makes coordination of other body muscles more difficult. After a couple of months she was running all over the house. It could be that as his nutrition improves so will his motor skills. Can't say much about the injury, but I suspect nutrition will make a big difference regardless.
 
Malnourished is definitely the case here. At 11.5", your beardie should weigh at least 400-600 grams, not 146 grams. I'm betting you're correct on the burn, too.

It sounds like you've gotten lots of great advice for feeding and rebuilding his strength. I wish you lots of luck--it's really heartbreaking to take in a rescue animal and deal with so much damage from his previous life, and it's even more heartbreaking if you lose them. I'm crossing my fingers and toes that you don't lose this one!

BTW, calcium deficiency may be contributing to his difficulties with his legs; messages may be not be getting from his brain to his rear legs properly. I'll bet that as he gains weight under your care, the leg problem will clear up at least some.

We can hope, anyway!

Good Luck!!

Sandy
 
Thanks Carlton and ChuWuti!

Yes, I have been getting good advice. But what you two just said made my day.

Carlton, knowing you've seen a similar presentation of symptoms, and that it was overcome is very hopeful.

And ChuWuti, giving me a target weight, and knowning my little fella is less than half his normal weight reinforces my diagnosis and gives me a target.

I fully recognize I could lose him. But the hope I have is that he is so alert and bright in how he holds his head, and makes eye contact with me any time I look to him tells me he has the will to live, and it's so far ahead of the game than if he were limp and unresponsive.

So today's news:
The bad news is no bowel movement, even when bathing him twice. But yesterday he only ate one super worm, and about 3ML of baby food, so not time to panic yet.

The good news:
Weight up to 157g (+11g from Friday). Probably mostly rehydrating.

While I couldn't get him to go for anything of food this morning, just a little while ago I made an interesting discovery. I took him out of his tank and put him on a towel, going to get something more than a few drops of baby food into him. I was ready to get down to business. :cool:

Had a couple of whitey super worms I was trying to tempt him with. No interest as I flicked it around in front of him. And you know how they wiggle when you hold them, so I thought if I could get it to hold more still near his mouth when he licked... so quite by accident I discovered that held by each end, the super pushed against his lips triggered him to open his mouth, and then he chewed it right up and swallowed.

WooHoo! Second whitey likity split! Then I'm trying to figure out how to do it with a dubia. Turns out the front end of a dubia is a perfect wedge. So then we had a couple dubias right off the bat. Hmmm, I thought... yup, turns out a strip of collard leaf works as good as a super worm, and he had about as much collard as a business card, one strip at a time. Then more roaches... 7 in all.

Okay, so next question- how much is too much? I don't want to be a huge shock to his system. What would be a reasonable amount of food to eat for his size?
 
Kudos on your persistence!!! Sounds like he has the will and with some tender love and care he may just pull through.

Be careful with the supers right now until you know he is passing his food regularly. Not sure what whitey's are. Stick with the dubias that are well gut loaded and make sure you are dusting them with calcium and use D3 a few times a week right now.

Did you get a chance t get a10.0 reptisun?

7 dubias are just fine. What size are they? When my guys were young they would go through 40 small Dubia a day (20 twice a day) but now that they are subadults/adults they eat about 6 to 8 once a day, sometimes every other day and i addd in some butters, horns etc from time to time, greens everyday. I have now cut back dusting as well to a few times a week but I would definitely dust your guys daily right now.

Glad to hear he is hanging in there!

Get you an order of hornworms from greatlakes. I bet he will take those without hesitation, not to mention they will provide some good nutrients as well as hydration and pump him up a little.
 
Thanks Crocky!

By "whitey's" I mean super worms that have just shed, so their chitenous shell hasn't hardened yet. Very soft, much better on the belly. :D

I have enough supers that I rarely even feed the chams anything but whiteys.

Yes, I ordered a repti 10, should be here Wednesday. And a liner carpet so he can get around better.

And ordered from Westcoast Roaches a buffet of fly larvae, hornworms, waxworms, and Phoenix worms.

I am the feeder!

The dubias I'm giving him are 3/4". Seems like a comfortable size for his mouth.
 
Wow, sounds like you got the feeders covered :D. Keep us updated! Nice on the weight gain as well
 
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