bridgetnshane
Member
I need a new family member! Any good cheap places to buy a cham
New chami
- Thread starter bridgetnshane
- Start date
I tend to agree, you need some luck to get a healthy animal but anything "cheap" is not usually better. A good breeder is going to give you a better chance for a healthy animal and hopefully fewer vet bills.
phantomchameleon
Established Member
Also make sure to ask if a chameleon is inbred or not if your getting the cham from a breeder! My cham was sick and is getting better now but alot of the problems with her are from genetic disorders and will never go away. Kidney and Liver failure will sometimes be present with inbred Chams.
I doubt anyone would answer this honestly. How would they guarantee this? Not to be argumentative, just want to have some actual facts behind these claims, but do you have anything to back up this information? The Forums are routinely used for research and it would be great to have factual information to back up these statements.
Goose502
Chameleon Enthusiast
In-breeding, or "line-breeding", is common practice in reptiles, as well as many other pets. It's how genetic mutations that exponentially increase breeder's sales are created. Some animals, especially reptiles, show massive amount of mutation in a short period of time. This is generally tolerated well by reptiles, but I'm sure that over many generations (and many, many years), problems can arise. Most issues are nearly always caused by poor husbandry. Just remember to do plenty of research (as you seem to be doing now), set up a good environment (ask the forum if what you've created is ok, many people do this), and if you really want inexpensive chameleons, look at reptile shows. I've seen healthy veiled chameleons for $19.99! Just please, do not jump into it! Just because the animal is cheap, believe me, there care is not. My setup cost me thousands! And I order about $50 of feeders a month, just for my one chameleon.
phantomchameleon
Established Member
You're right, it's very unlikely that they will answer this honestly.
http://www.chamaeleonidae.com/publications.html
http://www.chameleonnews.com/Reference.html
Here are some resources. They are very long reads but they will inform you about alot.
I just took my sleeping meds so I'm out of it but i'll leave you with this: the breeder who doesn't know when to stop inbreeding is much scarier than the outcome of the inbreeding.
from my experience the mortality rate of really inbred chameleons is super high, like 40%-50%
phantomchameleon
Established Member
i agree with some reptiles being in bred for new mutations but stop after one generation. sometimes it doesn't take years, especially with pygmys with their insect-length life spans.
the breeder i got my cham from didn't know when to stop, half of the clutch didn't make it. the breeder wanted to get rid of them pretty much because he didn;t want death on his hands
i'll probably talk more about this tomorrow if i remember
You have just listed resources for what? There is nothing to back your claims and then another claim with no actual basis. If you have some actual information based on real resources I'd love to see them, but Please do not make claims as fact based on a whim.
Also, please be aware that your references are not yours. You have quoted sources that are rather active here on the forums and you need to be careful not to use them incorrectly.
Goose502
Chameleon Enthusiast
Thank you for that response. The only reason I posted on this thread was because phantomchameleon had posted. After following her threads, I can only conclude that she has zero input. I agree, she has made statements that offer zero scientific fact, and her input is dangerous to this forum. It is very possitive she has taken much of our advise, but she needs to stop there. I've kept reptiles successfully for decades, including chameleons, though I try not to post unless I know without doubt that what I'm stating is true and factual. I've gotten loads of great care info from this amazing forum. That's why I hate seeing posts like the ones from phantomchameleon. I know I'm not the first person to become frustrated with her, and I apologize for this rant.
I would tend to agree that husbandry issues are likely the major cause of failures for many new keepers. Very good post here.
With posts such as the one you are referencing, I would like to see more
. Great advice for new keepers.
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
@phantomchameleon - Please don't falsely associate the articles I've written (first link) or the articles I've published as the editor of the E-Zine (second link) with your overarching generalizations and unsubstantiated statements. While in one article I wrote we briefly noted that "excessive inbreeding can lead to congenital anomalies" when discussing a broad array of health conditions that could be encountered in captivity (http://www.chamaeleonidae.com/ewExternalFiles/Diaz 2015 - Cold Spring Harb. Protoc-2.pdf), there is no other reference to potentially negative effects of inbreeding in the scientific articles I've written. Further, while inbreeding has been discussed a couple times on the E-Zine, and in general it points out that it should be avoided in excess, the focus of these mentions has been to outline the mechanistic basis of divergent traits among limited gene pools (http://www.chameleonnews.com/04AugAndersonFerguson.html), the relative importance of not breeding weak animals as opposed to blaming inbreeding on issues (http://www.chameleonnews.com/03MarKalischVeiled.html), how inbreeding can be used to promote a trait but may not be advisable (http://www.chameleonnews.com/02MarNozaki.html) and the general desire to track bloodlines and strengthen captive breeding efforts as a result (http://www.chameleonnews.com/04MayDescamps.html and http://www.chameleonnews.com/05OctDescampsFrancis.html). Nothing explicit documenting potential disorders or illnesses resulting from inbreeding is presented in them and the tend only to recommend against it as an over abundance of caution. In general I also agree with the notion that, while not a practice that should be encouraged in any but the most careful circumstances, the more general practice of allowing weak animals to survive and then breed their genetics into the population is far worse than breeding two healthy clutch mates back to each other in an attempt to increase to prevalence of a non-deleterious trait.
Chris
bridgetnshane
Member
I agree and thank you all for your comments!! I know there could be a being of having bad luck on buying a (cheap) Cham but that's not what I was getting at like the comment above said that's not always true. I bought my oldest for $50 at my local pet store and he is perfectly fine and healthy. I see this maybe happening from not taking proper care on breeding idk, I should of made my post sound more proper. But I'm just looking for better online sites other then the market sponsors we have on here.
You can check the Fauna Classifieds for other breeders that are selling. Great place to see reviews as well. Don't know if they'll be better though.
phantomchameleon
Established Member
I'm truly sorry that I posted those links, i posted the wrong sources but i guess they're not important now. I was very tired and wasn't really thinking straight.
phantomchameleon
Established Member
Him. I'm a guy. I know that what I'm saying is factual when it comes to genetics, but you need to understand that when it comes to reptile genetics, especially chameleon genetics, there needs to be some wiggle room. Why? Because reptiles are so genetically diverse that we can't even pinpoint a correct chromosome system to use with them. Some reptiles like geckos dont even have a sex chromosome and their sex is based on temperature for the most part(https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/experts-temperature-sex-determination-reptiles/). It's confirmed chameleons dont have that temperature based system of determining sex (http://www.chameleonnews.com/08FebLong.html).
The haploid numbers also are ranged with species of chameleons who are in the same close area (i had to put the link on the text because the link was too long)
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Neither variation in chromosome number between species nor whether or not a species has environmental, genotypic or multifactorial sex determination really has anything to do with the accuracy of the statements you made about inbreeding.
Chris
rotadennis
Member
Try www.canvaschameleons.com I just purchased a nice one from them and they're reasonably priced.
marley patches
Member
not a expert but my point of view is you get what you pay for
