New to chams(flap-necked chams?)
- Thread starter rrcoolj
- Start date
IMHO flaps can be more of a challenge than veileds because they come from such a wide range that the humidity and temperature levels can vary and unless you know where it came from its hard to provide it with what it needs for certain.
Here is an article about them that might help...
http://chameleonnews.com/06SepDeckers.html
Since most of the feeder insects we use have a poor ratio of calcium to phos., it should still be necessary to make up for that imbalance by dusting at each feeding with a phos.-free calcium powder.
Warpdrive said..."even silkies are not good as a staple as they are missing a vital componant that a cham needs every now and then"....what component is that?
matty0470 said..."i think my cham took such a hit from the bacterial infection that she is getting MBD"...what kind of bacterial infection did she have and why do you think it has caused her to develop MBD?
What you are feeding her now I don't think is good for her. You could make a slurry of insects that would be more natural for her.
Although her symptoms could be from MBD, there are other reasons these things could be happening...and I would suggest that you take her to a vet ASAP. Also...if you are suspecting that its calcium, what are you doing to correct it?
Here is an article about them that might help...
http://chameleonnews.com/06SepDeckers.html
Since most of the feeder insects we use have a poor ratio of calcium to phos., it should still be necessary to make up for that imbalance by dusting at each feeding with a phos.-free calcium powder.
Warpdrive said..."even silkies are not good as a staple as they are missing a vital componant that a cham needs every now and then"....what component is that?
matty0470 said..."i think my cham took such a hit from the bacterial infection that she is getting MBD"...what kind of bacterial infection did she have and why do you think it has caused her to develop MBD?
What you are feeding her now I don't think is good for her. You could make a slurry of insects that would be more natural for her.
Although her symptoms could be from MBD, there are other reasons these things could be happening...and I would suggest that you take her to a vet ASAP. Also...if you are suspecting that its calcium, what are you doing to correct it?
matty0470
New Member
Vet
Ive taken her to the vet twice in the last 8 days she has Proteus mirabillis bacterial infection. Im also a MD, the problem with all types of antibiotics is they knock out your immune system and they have such a harsh effect on the liver/ kidneys. With a critter that weighs 44g's its hard to get a therapeutic range for the medication/toxicity level. Her last BMP and CHEM7 (basal metapolic panel came back all within normal limits. The 3 vets that ive talked with all said the baby food is the best bet d/t the vitamins and minerals with it even though the Chams anatomy is different they still have the same physiology. I just wished I would of done more research before buying my cham and knew a breeder. I was told that veiled and panthers are best supported for my region because they can sustain cooler temps and less humid. Where as the flapneck b/c of location of origin need warmer weather.
Ive taken her to the vet twice in the last 8 days she has Proteus mirabillis bacterial infection. Im also a MD, the problem with all types of antibiotics is they knock out your immune system and they have such a harsh effect on the liver/ kidneys. With a critter that weighs 44g's its hard to get a therapeutic range for the medication/toxicity level. Her last BMP and CHEM7 (basal metapolic panel came back all within normal limits. The 3 vets that ive talked with all said the baby food is the best bet d/t the vitamins and minerals with it even though the Chams anatomy is different they still have the same physiology. I just wished I would of done more research before buying my cham and knew a breeder. I was told that veiled and panthers are best supported for my region because they can sustain cooler temps and less humid. Where as the flapneck b/c of location of origin need warmer weather.
warpdrive
Avid Member
not to argue or fight, but some types of chameleons just can't take large amounts of suplimentation with dusts.
my Quads like some other slow growing chameleons don't do well with regular dusting, and D3 is a big no no.
they just don't use it up as fast as a fast growing chameleon and thus problems can start real quick.
also, some individual chameleons, like my female panther don't tolerate dusting regularly.
instead of trying to make up the poor ratio with dusts, it is far better to at least have a good gutload of high calcium foods.
also, in order to not have to use a multi-vitamin and a mineral supliment, it would be better to offer veggies and fruits that contain high amounts of vitamins and minerals. some examples are sweet potato, carrots, orange slices, strawberrie slices, and crushed blueberries.
as for my quote, what I was getting at was chitin. I don't think that chameleons need a lot of it, but they could use a small amount of it from time to time.
I only did a super fast search, but this was what I found that describes what I'm talking about...
I hope that cleared up a few issues.
Harry
Doesn't the basal metapolic panel include calcium and kidney tests?? If so and they were all normal...how would it be MBD?
Symptoms of MBD in chameleons include but are not limited to...no/poor trunkal lifting, lethargy, lack of appetite, constipation, curved or broken bones in the arms/legs, flexible jaw bone, lack of proper tongue function, etc. It affects not only the bones but the muscles and other systems in the chameleon.
Symptoms of MBD in chameleons include but are not limited to...no/poor trunkal lifting, lethargy, lack of appetite, constipation, curved or broken bones in the arms/legs, flexible jaw bone, lack of proper tongue function, etc. It affects not only the bones but the muscles and other systems in the chameleon.
Warpdrive...Thanks for the answer concerning the missing component.
Regarding the supplements, etc....I did not say that anyone should give the chameleon large amounts of supplementation....I simply said that dusting insects that have a poor ratio of calcium to phos. to correct the imbalance would keep the balance.
I have raised many chameleons that have been on the list of ones that don't need large amounts of supplements...but its always good to hear it again so that those who are new to chameleons will read it too.
Although a good gutload can go a long way, not all people provide such a gutload, so balancing the calcium/phos. ratio by dusting IMHO makes it more likely that the balance is being met. I also keep my D3 and vitamin dustings to a minimum so that they will hopefully provide enough to sustain the chameleon without overdoing it and leaving them to get the rest from the diet. (BTW...I never talked about D3 use in this thread.)
Regarding the supplements, etc....I did not say that anyone should give the chameleon large amounts of supplementation....I simply said that dusting insects that have a poor ratio of calcium to phos. to correct the imbalance would keep the balance.
I have raised many chameleons that have been on the list of ones that don't need large amounts of supplements...but its always good to hear it again so that those who are new to chameleons will read it too.
Although a good gutload can go a long way, not all people provide such a gutload, so balancing the calcium/phos. ratio by dusting IMHO makes it more likely that the balance is being met. I also keep my D3 and vitamin dustings to a minimum so that they will hopefully provide enough to sustain the chameleon without overdoing it and leaving them to get the rest from the diet. (BTW...I never talked about D3 use in this thread.)
warpdrive
Avid Member
oh I know you have far more experiance then I do and I also know that you didn't talk about D3 at all.
I just wanted to speak a little more clearly as to why I replyed with the ansers that I did. I know I can be too brief at times, and now with a bad thumb, it's harder to type even on my computer.
if you reread my replys starting on page 1, I'm sure you'll see that I said that the original poster would have to do an above average job in gutloading his/her feeders for such an animal. you'll also notice that I never mentioned a dry gutload as I do still use some crack, but not to the extent that most do because of the high amounts of protien and how it "drys out" the juice found in our feeders...and I like to be squirted on my eyeglasses while my chams feed.
I also think that it is too easy to over dust small crickets and other small feeders even for someone who has lots of experiance.
I also said that he should give this chameleon basicly the same care as panthers, and I wanted to state as clear as possable that while everything else is almost the same, how often and how much dusting is done should be quite different.
I would much prefer someone telling me it is important to properly gutload my feeders better, then to just try to adjust the ratio of Cal/Phos with dusting with such an animal in question.
again, I'm not saying that no dusting is needed, just that if done once a week it should be fine.
it's a lot easyer to do then say dusting only one cricket out of the ten you are going to feed off each day.
we all have different ways of doing things and of telling others how it should be done.
I'm just of the mindset that I would rather talk about proper gutloading then in talking about dusting when discussing the poor raitos of our feeders.
in other words, I mean no disrespect to you. we just look at things slightly diferently.
Harry
I just wanted to speak a little more clearly as to why I replyed with the ansers that I did. I know I can be too brief at times, and now with a bad thumb, it's harder to type even on my computer.
if you reread my replys starting on page 1, I'm sure you'll see that I said that the original poster would have to do an above average job in gutloading his/her feeders for such an animal. you'll also notice that I never mentioned a dry gutload as I do still use some crack, but not to the extent that most do because of the high amounts of protien and how it "drys out" the juice found in our feeders...and I like to be squirted on my eyeglasses while my chams feed.
I also think that it is too easy to over dust small crickets and other small feeders even for someone who has lots of experiance.
I also said that he should give this chameleon basicly the same care as panthers, and I wanted to state as clear as possable that while everything else is almost the same, how often and how much dusting is done should be quite different.
I would much prefer someone telling me it is important to properly gutload my feeders better, then to just try to adjust the ratio of Cal/Phos with dusting with such an animal in question.
again, I'm not saying that no dusting is needed, just that if done once a week it should be fine.
it's a lot easyer to do then say dusting only one cricket out of the ten you are going to feed off each day.
we all have different ways of doing things and of telling others how it should be done.
I'm just of the mindset that I would rather talk about proper gutloading then in talking about dusting when discussing the poor raitos of our feeders.
in other words, I mean no disrespect to you. we just look at things slightly diferently.
Harry
