Nuts and Seeds

[sandrachameleon]

I wish to promote Nuts and Seeds as a healthy addition to vegetables and fruit for the perfect gutload. Nuts and seeds provide healthy unsaturated fats, protein, selenium and other minerals, Vitamin E, B vitamins and more. Some even have a favourable calcium to phosphorous ratio.

I like sesame seeds as they are high in calcium and also provide Iron, Magnesium, Potassium, Copper, Manganese and B Vitamins. Poppy seeds also have a high calcium content. Although higher in phosphorous than calcium, I also offer Sunflower seeds (excellent source of Vitamin E) and Walnuts (Omega-3 and a number of essential vitamins and minerals, including the B vitamins, vitamin E, copper, maganese, iron and zinc) and almonds in moderation. The occasional brazil nut is useful due to the very high selenium content.
I encourage you to add a few ground seeds and raw nuts to your feeder gutload from time to time, to the benefit of your chameleon.


Seasame Seeds: https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/499-sesame-seeds-good-choice.html
Sunflower seeds: https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/145-nutrients-sunflower-seeds.html
Poppy Seeds: https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/502-nutrients-poppy-seeds-papaver-somniferum.html
Squash / pumpkin seeds: https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/500-nutrients-squash-seeds.html
Walnuts: https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/495-walnuts.html
Filberts: https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/501-filberts-hazelnuts.html
Millet: https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/494-nutrients-millet-panicum-miliaceum.html
Brazil nut: https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/493-brazil-nuts.html
Almonds: https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/492-nutrients-almonds.html
Beechnuts: https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/491-beechnuts.html

More information regarding gutloading:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs...utloading.html
http://www.chameleonnews.com/05JunDescamps.html

 

[Bernie]

Thanks Sandra. I have some pine nuts. Would you recommend those in a gutload?

 

[Hoj]

good thread sandra, i recognize a bunch of those seeds from your recipe, witch is the best!!!

 

[suzi]

Thanks Sandra, I really appreciate your nutritional recommendations

 

[chameleongirl2]

good thread sandra, i recognize a bunch of those seeds from your recipe, witch is the best!!!

good threat is way i have to say too!!

 

[SonTigerPantherCham]

Hi Sandra, I use all those (except walnuts) but in the form of fresh organic sprouts that I add to my fresh gutload. Its easy and cheap!. I get them every week at the farmers market

 

[sandrachameleon]

Glad people are finding this post informative / useful.

Thanks Sandra. I have some pine nuts. Would you recommend those in a gutload?

Apart from pine nuts being too expensive and delicious to "waste" on gutloading, they also have a very high fat and very high phosphorous conent, making them unsuitable for gutloading, at least not on a regular basis.

 

[nickc]

definitely gona look into using this in my gutloads

 

[sandrachameleon]

definitely gona look into using this in my gutloads

Here's a sample of how I've used them:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/425-may-2011-gutload.html

 

[Allen Repashy]

Great list.

Three comments.....

First, I would suggest to make sure you are all aware of the protein levels in most nuts which can exceed 40% in some species. Grains typically have much less. I really think that gutloads, especially those used for roaches, should be less than 15% (12%-13% optimum)

A good way to balance out the use of nuts is to include an equal amount of very high carb/low protein ingredient such as dried fruit, dried honey, or believe it or not, plain old sugar... which really adds to the palatability of the mix.

Second, I didn't see Flax seed on the list and think this is one of the best seeds you can use in a gutload. Best source of omega 3 fatty acids on the planet!

Third, Stabilized Rice Bran provides a wealth of nutrients and can be a great component to a good gutload formula. It's not a pure grain, but provides all the benefits of brown rice without the stability issues.

Remember also that nuts and seeds are quite stable when whole, but when ground, some can go bad pretty quickly, so best to grind fresh or use a product that has been properly milled if you want to reduce your work.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Great list.

Three comments.....

First, I would suggest to make sure you are all aware of the protein levels in most nuts which can exceed 40% in some species. Grains typically have much less. I really think that gutloads, especially those used for roaches, should be less than 15% (12%-13% optimum)

Agreed, nuts and seeds should not form the principle part of your gutload. But neither should grains, given the calcium to phosphourous ratio.

Have you found plant based protein, such as from nuts or alfalfa, to cause issues for roaches? I was of the impression (could easily be wrong) that the main cultript/concern was animal source protein. Possibly I have that in mind just because of the levels.

Second, I didn't see Flax seed on the list and think this is one of the best seeds you can use in a gutload. Best source of omega 3 fatty acids on the planet!

Agreed, flax can be Useful as an addition to gutload, but wrong calcium to phosphorous ratio for heavy use.
Here's a link to info about Flax: https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/509-flax-seed-linum-usitatissimum.html

Rice bran is Great, excepting that its got more than 20 times the phosphorous as it does calcium. Not a problem if you compensate for that, of course

 

[Allen Repashy]

Agreed, nuts and seeds should not form the principle part of your gutload. But neither should grains, given the calcium to phosphourous ratio.

Have you found plant based protein, such as from nuts or alfalfa, to cause issues for roaches? I was of the impression (could easily be wrong) that the main cultript/concern was animal source protein. Possibly I have that in mind just because of the levels.

Agreed, flax can be Useful as an addition to gutload, but wrong calcium to phosphorous ratio for heavy use.
Here's a link to info about Flax: https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/509-flax-seed-linum-usitatissimum.html

Rice bran is Great, excepting that its got more than 20 times the phosphorous as it does calcium. Not a problem if you compensate for that, of course

Hi Sandra,

I could see you point if people are not mixing calcium carbonate or another source of calcium into their gutload. If you use a fine grade mix, this is pretty easy to do.

For me, the amount of phosphorous in a gutload ingredient is pretty much irrelevant to a certain point since I think a gutload should contain 3%-5% calcium (not calcium carbonate, which is only about 38% calcium)

When I formulate a mix, I use a software and input all the known values for each ingredient into the program... so for example if an ingredient is .1% calcium, and 1% phosphorous. it will multiply this times how much of the ingredient I am using, and combine this with all ingredients to estimate the amount of phosphorous for example, in the mix. Once I have a formula I am happy with, I send it to my lab for analysis, and then tweak if necessary based on these results.

Rice Bran contains 1.5% -1.7% phosphorous ( I use the high number in my ingredient entries) and has the highest organically available amount of phosphorous.
Even using a formula that is 20% Rice Bran, I never get a mix that has more than .75% phosphorous when combining it with other grains, nuts, greens and dried fruits.

I add calcium to my insect diets to reach a target of around 5% calcium, so if you look at the ratio, the phosphorous levels even in pure rice bran are irrelevant and would still yield a 3:1 calcium to phosphorous ratio.

As far as calcium levels in insect diets and gutloads. levels up around 10% or more can start to effect the health and growth of insects because they can become impacted, but levels around 5% have shown to be easily processed.

So in short..... my answer is to not worry about an ingredient because of its phosphorous levels, and add calcium to compensate. Even if you are juse eyeballing your gutload, you can add 5% calcium carbonate on a dry matter basis and insure that any phosphorous levels have become insignificant. phosphorous IS an essential mineral and even insects need some. Crickets are going to end up with about 1% phosphorous in their bodies do matter what the levels in the food they eat. The only calcium they are going to have in their body is what is in their gut... which isn't much, which is why we want as much as possible in the edible gutload.

We need to remember, we are not feeding this mix to our herps, insects eat it first and are going to metabolize things in their own way. We shouldn't think that a level of something given to an insect is going to transfer to our herp at a similar ratio.

Rice bran also has the added benefit of having high levels of magnesium, which are essential. I formulate for example, to have a 10:1 calcium to magnesium ratio, which I think everyone else totally ignores.

Anyways, that's my take on being concerned with phosphorous levels in insect diet and nutrition.

 

[Allen Repashy]

Have you found plant based protein, such as from nuts or alfalfa, to cause issues for roaches? I was of the impression (could easily be wrong) that the main cultript/concern was animal source protein. Possibly I have that in mind just because of the levels.

Forgot to address this one.

For me, proteins are simply chains of amino acids. We can get essential amino acids from plant or animal based proteins with the exception of Taurine, which is absolutely necessary for true carnivores and it comes only from animal protein sources.

It is my opinion that the level of protein is more important than the source. There are of course other things that come along with animal proteins such as fats and vitamins that could have good or bad contributing factors. Most meat is high in fat, and this might not be great in a no choice food regiment for bugs.

Animal protein...... or what comes along with it, is something to look at if we get back to the Retinol thing for example.......

It is known that wild collected insects, generally contain more retinol than domestically raised ones. There is also quite a bit of difference between insect species as far as their retinol content goes.

We need to remember that all bugs don't eat plants.... some bugs only eat decaying meat, many, like crickets and roaches, are opportunistic, and will eat a dead lizard, bird, mammal, if the opportunity arises.

So this might contribute to higher retinol levels in wild insects and when combined with species variety and the occasional vertibrate meal for the herp, may be why we need to supplement retinol to compete with nature.....

Anyways...... back to your question. I don't think animal protein is much of a negative, more important I think is total protein levels. Animal protein from liver, could help raise retinol levels in insects, as well as can having retinol supplemented with plant based proteins.

Allen

 

[sandrachameleon]

Hi Sandra,
I could see you point if people are not mixing calcium carbonate or another source of calcium into their gutload. If you use a fine grade mix, this is pretty easy to do.
For me, the amount of phosphorous in a gutload ingredient is pretty much irrelevant to a certain point since I think a gutload should contain 3%-5% calcium (not calcium carbonate, which is only about 38% calcium)
When I formulate a mix, I use a software and input all the known values for each ingredient into the program...

Understood. I knew you were compensating in your product

But I think those making their own gutloads are not necessarily adding a great deal of calicum directly to the gutload, not necessarily even thinking about the relationships of the ingredients. Also adding too much calcium supplement powder (which is what most folks have on hand) to the gutload can negatively effect the bugs. With the prevailent "more is better" attitude, Im not sure eyeballing the difference between 5% and 10% is quite so easy - but perhaps I am wrong. nevertheless, I prefer to keep the high phosphorous containing ingredients low, and the high calcium ingredients high - Which of course still allows some phosphorous into the diet.

Im very pleased to see you mention the importance of magnesium - it doesnt get the "air time" it deserves. Neither does vitamin E, or B vitamins or Iodine, and many other things. We get so focussed on Calcium, "Vitamin" D and vitamin A, its like they stand alone.
the Magnesium content of seeds and nuts is another good reason to include them in ones gutloading routine

With your bug burger, is it formulated such that calcium and other supplement dusting becomes far less necessary? - maybe answer in a pm since its unrelated to this thread topic.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Good to hear your thoughts about the protein. I had recently (over the winter) used a lot more alfalfa and was wondering if I was over doing the protein as a result.

 

[Allen Repashy]

Understood. I knew you were compensating in your product

Im not sure eyeballing the difference between 5% and 10% is quite so easy - but perhaps I am wrong.

Im very pleased to see you mention the importance of magnesium - it doesnt get the "air time" it deserves. Neither does vitamin E, or B vitamins or Iodine, and many other things. We get so focussed on Calcium, "Vitamin" D and vitamin A, its like they stand alone.
the Magnesium content of seeds and nuts is another good reason to include them in ones gutloading routine

With your bug burger, is it formulated such that calcium and other supplement dusting becomes far less necessary? - maybe answer in a pm since its unrelated to this thread topic.

Hi Sandra,

as far as adding calcium to gutload formulas, I think it can be easy enough if one major rule is followed.

That being that I really believe that no reptile keeper on earth should be without a small digital scale. I really think that is it the single most important husbandry tool a keeper can own. A good one is less than $20.00. Regular weighing of your charges will help monitor growth and health issues, and now that we have it, we can use it to more accurately make our gutloads

I really think everything should be done by weight, and not "parts" to get repeatable accuracy. If you are going to make a kilo of gutload, it is nearly as easy to weigh out your ingredients as it is to "eyeball" them.

At the very least, you could just use the scale to add calcium carbonate at then end. 5% by weight I think is a great way to insure you are compensating for even the highest amounts of phosphorous. The limiting factor I see here for home made formulas is that you need a pretty fine mix to get good blending and not have it separate. Dusting a wet gutload mix would be one way to overcome this.... dusting wet greens works just like dusting crickets... just weigh it out and then shake and bake!

Yeah, Magnesium and other nutrients get back seat most of the time . I really think balancing both Phosphorous AND Magnesium to Calcium is essential.

As far as bug burger removing the need for dusting...... I think it will take a lot of feedback before an answer like that can be solidified. I have done everything I can possibly do to make it as balanced as possible, but this still doesn't address the missing variability most people get when they are only using a few different feeder insects, or just crickets.

I think our biggest downfall as keepers is our limited ability to vary types of feeders to a degree that can be found in nature. Without a variety of wild insects at every feeding, I think we are doomed as keepers to continue supplementing our reptiles.

 

[sandrachameleon]

That being that I really believe that no reptile keeper on earth should be without a small digital scale. I really think that is it the single most important husbandry tool a keeper can own. A good one is less than $20.00. Regular weighing of your charges will help monitor growth and health issues, and now that we have it, we can use it to more accurately make our gutloads

great point. I have a scale for monitoring chameleon weights. Bizzar that Ive never put it to use when making up gutloads. Especially since my scale was sold as a kitchen appliance LOL

I think our biggest downfall as keepers is our limited ability to vary types of feeders to a degree that can be found in nature. Without a variety of wild insects at every feeding, I think we are doomed as keepers to continue supplementing our reptiles.

Yea, I think you're totally right here

 

[Allen Repashy]

one important note when making gutloads is that if you are using fresh greens, fruits, or vegetables, you can weigh and mix between them because the have similar water content..... but you can't mix fresh greens with dry grains unless you only count them as about 20% of their wet weight.....

So making dry gutloads by weight is easy, and so is making wet gutloads by weight, but when you mix dry and wet together...... don't forget the water content.

People often eyeball wet and dry ingredients as if they are the same and this can make them off by a LOT!

 

[Bernie]

Well Sandra I took your advice and bought myself a new ingredient today for tonights preparation of frozen gutload - it consists of Carrot, Orange, Papaya, Apple, Kale, Butternut Squash, Sweet potato and sesame seeds

 

[chameleoman]

you should smash all the seeds and nuts 2gether and make a powder gutload and sell it i would buy it