OK, so I just had a special moment with my baby Chameleon

[Poveglia]

Thank you...I'll make sure I don't do that again then...

 

[wavingsnail]

Also, I've been around reptile and pet owners for the last 25+ years, and I also can spot the difference between good, caring owners and the pet fanatics.......

I've been around air force fighter pilots for over 30 years, but that doesn't mean I'm ready to hop in the cockpit and take off down the runway.

 

[Echo.27]

Can y'all please chill. Poveglia thought it was a cute moment and so did I, Yeah sure we make mistakes but not everyone is an expert and not everyone believes Chameleons are animals filled with "fear and paranoia". There are a lot of chameleon owners who have chameleons that love spending time with them and get excited when they get home and love to be held. Once again I am no expert, but I can tell when someone is bullied one a "friendly" website

 

[jajeanpierre]

Great bonding moment! Keep doing stuff like that and she'll love you!

Keep mauling young chameleons like that and they don't love it, they die. Stress--handling is very stressful for a chameleon--suppresses the immune system. And they get sick and die. Not right away, but they tend to live very short lives.

 

[leedragon]

First off "buddy", I have shown nothing but being open and receptive towards feedback and posts here, since this is my first chameleon, but I am no child and most likely have A LOT more experience with reptiles than you. Secondly, I would have been open to you "advice" if you two had given some...instead of raving like lunatics. I searched you and Lee's posts, and for such an important subject, you guys didn't post a lot on it that I can see. In fact, both of you had some very "noobish" comments in your beginnings.

Third, I 100% disagree with you about that "Unfortunately 99.9% of chameleons will never show anything other than basic recognition of their keeper". Back up any of your claims in actual science.

Now, I agree with you IF my chameleon was only closing their eyes, I can recognize when an animal is stressed (again, not my first reptile or pet). But the OTHER signs and actions that I had described were not in any way symptoms of a stressed pet.

Funny, I didn't realize there were so many herpetologists in these forums.....oh wait, you're most likely not and only relaying YOUR research with chameleons, which from the looks of it, started in 2016. So...yeah...troll elsewhere....

I am so sorry man. it is not you. it is this. you know this thing coming on and on again, about petting the chameleon in a way or and other and it closing it´s Eyes, falling aslepp. or whatever a cat or a dog would show as affections and the people who own the chameleon take it as being the same for a mammal as for a reptile here. you have no idea how many of this kind of threads are just here on chameleonforum. I am sorry for being such F* rude at you man. you probably are are great mate. and gonna learn a hell of alot about chameleons. but it is this f*king theme coming on and on again. it is really frustrating.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Which I have NEVER done on these forums...until you and leedragon went batsh*t on me......

@Poveglia A lot of people are really frustrated with novice keepers coming here and insisting their animals are capable of things they just are not, such as "bonding" with a human. It kills an awful lot of chameleons--stress suppresses the immune system--and these novices and some not-so-novice keepers don't see the connection between ill health and early death and their handling their chameleon. It is incredibly frustrating to keep typing the same spiel to have our well thought out information dismissed and often with a lot of arrogant rudeness by the new keeper.

Unfortunately, the reaction to your post is because of a lot of similar posts to your post that many experienced keepers have dealt with and answered.

Yes, it is really unfair that you were jumped on.

 

[Poveglia]

I am so sorry man. it is not you. it is this. you know this thing coming on and on again, about petting the chameleon in a way or and other and it closing it´s Eyes, falling aslepp. or whatever a cat or a dog would show as affections and the people who own the chameleon take it as being the same for a mammal as for a reptile here. you have no idea how many of this kind of threads are just here on chameleonforum. I am sorry for being such F* rude at you man. you probably are are great mate. and gonna learn a hell of alot about chameleons. but it is this f*king theme coming on and on again. it is really frustrating.

All forgiven man...I appreciate the apology, and accept it. I will also heed the advice for the future. Thanks.

 

[Poveglia]

@Poveglia A lot of people are really frustrated with novice keepers coming here and insisting their animals are capable of things they just are not, such as "bonding" with a human. It kills an awful lot of chameleons--stress suppresses the immune system--and these novices and some not-so-novice keepers don't see the connection between ill health and early death and their handling their chameleon. It is incredibly frustrating to keep typing the same spiel to have our well thought out information dismissed and often with a lot of arrogant rudeness by the new keeper.

Unfortunately, the reaction to your post is because of a lot of similar posts to your post that many experienced keepers have dealt with and answered.

Yes, it is really unfair that you were jumped on.

Gotcha. Although I wouldn't call this a stressful experience for the chameleon...she actually enjoyed it (I didn't do too much, just allowed her to rub against my finger as opposed to the branches in her cage). I only use the term "bonding" because that is what the forums refers to a lot when taming your chameleon. It also made her not so afraid of me for some reason, and she tries to come to me from her cage now (which she never did prior to today. But. I'll take this all as a "not to do".

But I'll make sure I avoid this in the future.

As far as people ganging up on me, it's all good too....I'm more than capable of snapping back, and if this were in person, I know they wouldn't do this (20+ years in the Army makes "ass-chewings" and "snapping back" easy for me).

 

[JacksJill]

The reason forum members get "all over" these kind of posts is also that if they aren't debunked next week we'll be getting post from people that forcefully scratched the shed off their cham and thought that was ok. (I know that is not what you did.) Trying to keep the info on this site fact based means a lot to those that have worked so hard on it.

 

[Poveglia]

The reason forum members get "all over" these kind of posts is also that if they aren't debunked next week we'll be getting post from people that forcefully scratched the shed off their cham and thought that was ok. (I know that is not what you did.) Trying to keep the info on this site fact based means a lot to those that have worked so hard on it.

I believe you...and no, I wasn't forcefully scratching skin off of my chameleon, so I don't want that interpretation. I was, in fact, providing the same function that would have been achieved in nature. Instead of her scratching herself on a branch or vive, I simply provided my finger.

Also, in professionally dealing with re-habilitated animals, I have discovered that you guys are WRONG, and definitely under-estimate the mental capacity and "emotions" of these animals. I have worked with re-habilitating a large variety of domestic animals, and I think that you would be highly impressed with my achievements regardless of what the "professionals" tell you.

I have tamed and raised a rattlesnake, re-habilitated and saved a baby crow, amongst a ton of other things. So, just because YOUR animals do not react in a certain way, doesn't hold true for all animals of that species. In fact, it just shows that you may not have a proper understanding or respect for the animal whose life you control.

And, keeping this site fact based is a sentiment I can respect, but charging in and verbally attempting to be an internet "tough guy/gal" to me is NOT the approach to take.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I believe you...and no, I wasn't forcefully scratching skin off of my chameleon, so I don't want that interpretation. I was, in fact, providing the same function that would have been achieved in nature. Instead of her scratching herself on a branch or vive, I simply provided my finger.

Also, in professionally dealing with re-habilitated animals, I have discovered that you guys are WRONG, and definitely under-estimate the mental capacity and "emotions" of these animals. I have worked with re-habilitating a large variety of domestic animals, and I think that you would be highly impressed with my achievements regardless of what the "professionals" tell you.

I have tamed and raised a rattlesnake, re-habilitated and saved a baby crow, amongst a ton of other things. So, just because YOUR animals do not react in a certain way, doesn't hold true for all animals of that species. In fact, it just shows that you may not have a proper understanding or respect for the animal whose life you control.

And, keeping this site fact based is a sentiment I can respect, but charging in and verbally attempting to be an internet "tough guy/gal" to me is NOT the approach to take.

Bonding is not about taming. It is about attachment and trust developing on both sides of the relationship. I can train an animal that hates and fears me, but there won't be a bond.

Chameleons have little social interaction with their own species. Their interactions are usually limited to mating and fighting over resources such as territory or a mate. They don't nurture their young. They don't develop any kind of a relationship with their mate. Why do you think they would ever behave in a way that is not part of their biology? At best, your chameleon will learn to not fear you and tolerate your handling. They might look forward to your feeding them. They most certainly will not think lovingly about you. Other than melleri, I don't think chameleons do much thinking at all.

I know nothing about rattlesnakes, but it doesn't surprise me that you could tame one. After all, bacteria can be trained.

When you bring up a baby crow, though, you are talking about one of the most intelligent animals there is. They might be more intelligent than privates or dolphins. Raising an intelligent bird that does form intense social relationships and that works cooperatively with others just cannot be compared to working with a very simple chameleon.

You are just a tad bit on the arrogant side to be arguing about the nature of a chameleon with experienced chameleon keepers and breeders when you have only had one chameleon, and I take it for a short period of time. You cannot compare chameleons to other reptiles you've kept. It would be something akin to a person who has kept a canary and a budgie thinking they were an expert in ostriches and gyr falcons.

I just wish people would appreciate chameleons for being chameleons instead of trying to make them into something they are not. They are not poodles. Anthropomorphizing kills a lot of chameleons.

 

[Nursemaia]

Bonding is not about taming. It is about attachment and trust developing on both sides of the relationship. I can train an animal that hates and fears me, but there won't be a bond.

Chameleons have little social interaction with their own species. Their interactions are usually limited to mating and fighting over resources such as territory or a mate. They don't nurture their young. They don't develop any kind of a relationship with their mate. Why do you think they would ever behave in a way that is not part of their biology? At best, your chameleon will learn to not fear you and tolerate your handling. They might look forward to your feeding them. They most certainly will not think lovingly about you. Other than melleri, I don't think chameleons do much thinking at all.

I know nothing about rattlesnakes, but it doesn't surprise me that you could tame one. After all, bacteria can be trained.

When you bring up a baby crow, though, you are talking about one of the most intelligent animals there is. They might be more intelligent than privates or dolphins. Raising an intelligent bird that does form intense social relationships and that works cooperatively with others just cannot be compared to working with a very simple chameleon.

You are just a tad bit on the arrogant side to be arguing about the nature of a chameleon with experienced chameleon keepers and breeders when you have only had one chameleon, and I take it for a short period of time. You cannot compare chameleons to other reptiles you've kept. It would be something akin to a person who has kept a canary and a budgie thinking they were an expert in ostriches and gyr falcons.

I just wish people would appreciate chameleons for being chameleons instead of trying to make them into something they are not. They are not poodles. Anthropomorphizing kills a lot of chameleons.

Very well put. I haven't kept mell for long and in only having 1 I definitely notice he's much different than my others.

I agree with everything you say here

 

[leedragon]

Bonding is not about taming. It is about attachment and trust developing on both sides of the relationship. I can train an animal that hates and fears me, but there won't be a bond.

Chameleons have little social interaction with their own species. Their interactions are usually limited to mating and fighting over resources such as territory or a mate. They don't nurture their young. They don't develop any kind of a relationship with their mate. Why do you think they would ever behave in a way that is not part of their biology? At best, your chameleon will learn to not fear you and tolerate your handling. They might look forward to your feeding them. They most certainly will not think lovingly about you. Other than melleri, I don't think chameleons do much thinking at all.

I know nothing about rattlesnakes, but it doesn't surprise me that you could tame one. After all, bacteria can be trained.

When you bring up a baby crow, though, you are talking about one of the most intelligent animals there is. They might be more intelligent than privates or dolphins. Raising an intelligent bird that does form intense social relationships and that works cooperatively with others just cannot be compared to working with a very simple chameleon.

You are just a tad bit on the arrogant side to be arguing about the nature of a chameleon with experienced chameleon keepers and breeders when you have only had one chameleon, and I take it for a short period of time. You cannot compare chameleons to other reptiles you've kept. It would be something akin to a person who has kept a canary and a budgie thinking they were an expert in ostriches and gyr falcons.

I just wish people would appreciate chameleons for being chameleons instead of trying to make them into something they are not. They are not poodles. Anthropomorphizing kills a lot of chameleons.

wait, waht about Melleris?

 

[jajeanpierre]

wait, waht about Melleris?

Mellers are just different. I've only had them for short periods of time, holding them until @jpowell86 can pick them up. They seem very intelligent to me. They also tend to live in groups unlike other chameleons. There seems to be a social hierarchy within the group that is not obvious to the observer unless you observe remotely with a video camera. Ask Joel about them. They are fascinating.

 

[leedragon]

Mellers are just different. I've only had them for short periods of time, holding them until @jpowell86 can pick them up. They seem very intelligent to me. They also tend to live in groups unlike other chameleons. There seems to be a social hierarchy within the group that is not obvious to the observer unless you observe remotely with a video camera. Ask Joel about them. They are fascinating.

sorry not trying to be rude to you at all here or disrepectful. that sounded like trying to have a cake and eating it too. I do know some chameleons tolerate eachother. I do not really know how melleries live in the wild. I did not notice any kind of social behavior ( /towards me/) from my melleri. but then again I just had one. I do belive due there is gonna be a hierarchy, I would say if you put any animal in the same enclosure it is going to be a hierarchy amongs them, I do not know if it is going to be about being social but rather than who can claim what.

 

[Nursemaia]

Melleri have been called the dog of the chameleon world. They're purported to be the one friendly and social species.

 

[kwengkynator]

Grabs popcorn. Dont mind me.

 

[leedragon]

Melleri have been called the dog of the chameleon world. They're purported to be the one friendly and social species.

I Think it was elephant of the trees, I have never been hear of a chameleon been called the dog of the chameleons. I found my Panther to be somehow like a dog in it´s structure due. but I don´t know if anyone would see it and Think it´s form reminds of a small dog, tax dog like.
btw once again. not trying to offende you. jajeanpierre, I have the habbit of sounding arrogant when I try as hardest to approch someone in a hamble ton

 

[jamest0o0]

Just got back from walking my chameleon around the block, i see i've missed the memo on a couple things.

 

[jajeanpierre]

sorry not trying to be rude to you at all here or disrepectful. that sounded like trying to have a cake and eating it too. I do know some chameleons tolerate eachother. I do not really know how melleries live in the wild. I did not notice any kind of social behavior ( /towards me/) from my melleri. but then again I just had one. I do belive due there is gonna be a hierarchy, I would say if you put any animal in the same enclosure it is going to be a hierarchy amongs them, I do not know if it is going to be about being social but rather than who can claim what.

I wasn't talking about melleri interacting with humans, but with their own species. I'm no expert on melleri, believe me. I'm just going by what Joel has related to me. My understanding is that melleri do tend to live in groups. We've talked a lot about melleri.