other sources of Vitamin A

[CleanLineChameleons]

Dodolah,

Yep exactly...the upper tolerable limits for vitamin A is much lower than the upper tolerable limits of vitamin D, therefor using preformed A is a bit more dangerous and cannot be compared to vitamin D supplementation.

The fact of the matter is there are tons of people with chameleons that never use preformed A and the chameleons do just fine. I have my fair share and have had many of them for a couple years now (which is saying a lot for a breeder). I do not use preformed A and feel that there has to be some way that my chameleons can convert beta carotene to a usable A because mine still reproduce which is impossible with insufficient vitamin A.

Also about the articles on preformed vit A...many of them are over 10 years old and the people doing the tests (one of them being Ferguson) has been on both sides of the argument.

There is no black and white answer, but I feel like this would be better as a pole...who uses it and how old is their oldest chameleon that has been using preformed A?

My 2 centimos,

Chris

 

[Docility]

Dodolah,

Yep exactly...the upper tolerable limits for vitamin A is much lower than the upper tolerable limits of vitamin D, therefor using preformed A is a bit more dangerous and cannot be compared to vitamin D supplementation.

The fact of the matter is there are tons of people with chameleons that never use preformed A and the chameleons do just fine. I have my fair share and have had many of them for a couple years now (which is saying a lot for a breeder). I do not use preformed A and feel that there has to be some way that my chameleons can convert beta carotene to a usable A because mine still reproduce which is impossible with insufficient vitamin A.

Also about the articles on preformed vit A...many of them are over 10 years old and the people doing the tests (one of them being Ferguson) has been on both sides of the argument.

There is no black and white answer, but I feel like this would be better as a pole...who uses it and how old is their oldest chameleon that has been using preformed A?

My 2 centimos,

Chris

I keep finding info that there are trace amounts of Vitamin A in bug eyes/ Nervous tissues, and it makes sense.

no matter what we need a good study on vitamin A, D3, and just general mass spec bug breakdowns so we really know what they are getting, and how much

 

[chambabysitter1]

Would the preformed vitamin A be more essential to a young chameleon? I suppose I could give him a tiny amount, as we have some vitamins here.

I, like many keepers, am using the beta carotene in supplements as well as gutload.

Are isopods a good thing to introduce into the diet for vitamin a, as they are more natural, or would you guys think the pinhead amount trick would be better?

These are interesting facts that everyone has brought to light for me. Thank you.

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

Would the preformed vitamin A be more essential to a young chameleon? I suppose I could give him a tiny amount, as we have some vitamins here.

I would say no...how would you give preformed A...a drop of cod liver oil? This is made for humans...even .02cc (roughly a drop) contains far too much preformed A for a young chameleon. Also, we know with people and other animals that babies have sufficient usable A from their mother and/or the egg. I believe, don't have the article in front of me, that Ferguson found that there is a lot of usable A inside captive chameleon bred chameleon eggs, even those who have not been supplemented with preformed A.

I don't believe your baby chameleon will die if he/she does not have preformed A, I know mine haven't.

Chris

 

[chambabysitter1]

I would say no...how would you give preformed A...a drop of cod liver oil? This is made for humans...even .02cc (roughly a drop) contains far too much preformed A for a young chameleon. Also, we know with people and other animals that babies have sufficient usable A from their mother and/or the egg. I believe, don't have the article in front of me, that Ferguson found that there is a lot of usable A inside captive chameleon bred chameleon eggs, even those who have not been supplemented with preformed A.

I don't believe your baby chameleon will die if he/she does not have preformed A, I know mine haven't.

Chris

Well, I sure don't expect it to anytime soon. Not exactly sure how you came to that conclusion.

Interesting information provided though. On the kitty blog I know it actually suggests using preformed vit a, but never actually suggests at what age, hence my question.

Okay, now let us fast forward into the future. From the thread it's obvious every chameleon isn't dropping dead from lack of vitamin a, but let us go ahead and assume I want the best for my chameleon.

Would an isopod be a good replacement for vitamin a? Or in other opinions would it be better to just provide preformed?

 

[desultadox]

I'm curious about the isopods so many keep bringing up. Are you talking about this:

or are you talking about a pillbug/sowbug?

One seems a little too big and the other too small. Also, where do you get them from?

 

[sandrachameleon]

I do not see anything in your experience that would support the assumption that they may not need any pre-formed A. Without being sure if your chameleon has no source of pre-formed A in its diet, and then eliminating that source to evaluate the effects, how can you then suggest that it does not need any ?

I have not declared any facts about whether or not chameleons need vitamin a. that is not the point of this thread - that point has been debated elsewhere (and no doubt will be again every few months ) I have merely presented my experience and am wondering where might my chameleons be getting preformed vitamin a. This is why I am asking for opinions. I want to know if there's any possibility of preformed A being in the feeders I use. That's why I've listed the feeders I use.

The only one that seems likely so far is the isopod. I breed the isopods myself, so i do know what they eat, and its primarily vegetable scraps and dead leaves from trees. But like I said now and again I toss a dog food kibble in there, or a square cm of cooked egg white. These contain some small amount of vitamin A. Given how infrequently I give this to them, I'm suggesting it must be exceedingly trace amounts, if anything, that remain in those few isopods that much later become chameleon food.. Which is how I draw the conclusion that if chameleons do need preformed vitamin A, it would seem to only be a very very small amount.

Three of my chameleons are quite young. They've each had only one, maybe two isopods ever while I've owned them. Those isopods havent had dog kibble or egg in a couple months. These young chameleons remain healthy. But perhaps they should get more isopods, if we think this is the only source of vitamin a and if we think vitamin a is necessary.

But I am very much open to hearing where else you / anyone thinks it might be coming from?

 

[sandrachameleon]

Chameleons don't convert beta carotene

Is this known for sure?

I have never directly provided preformed vitamin a, and am aware of no health issues related to my chameleons lacking it - yet so many people feel it is necessary and site health issues, mostly eye issues I think, when its not provided. How are my chameleons escaping eye issues? How have they lived long lives? How have they produced healthy babies? What element of my husbandry is making up for the lack of direct vitamin A supplementation (if we assume such is necessary)?

The point of my post wasnt so much to debate whether or not preformed vitamin a is or is not needed, nor to debate whether or not beta carotene can be converted to A in chameleons, rather, I was really just wondering if there may be a source of preformed vitamin a getting into my chameleons that I am not aware of.
So far, there is the possibility of trace amounts coming from infrequent offerings of isopods. Or maybe the eyes of wild caught grasshoppers?

Oh and yes, Isopods are called wood sows, rollie pollies, pill bugs etc -these are different types of isopods. I keep two different kinds. They are not big. Full grown, the pill bugs (when rolled up) are smaller than green peas. The wood sows are kinda watermellon seed size. These are small creatures. My chameleons LOVE them, but they dont get many of them. Mostly I breed them to feed to frogs and other pets (and because I kinda like the isopods, they're interesting)

Also, thank you everyone for taking the time to contribute to the thread.

 

[kinyonga]

Sandrachameleon said..."I find kinyonga's response of great interest, given that her chameleons do not get isopods.
Lynda, do your chameleons get any wild caught bugs? Or do you gutload your crickets with pre-formed vitamin a containing matter?"..no, my chameleons don't get any WC bugs. I don't gutload with anything that contains preformed vitamin A....but remember I said I don't know if the crickets, etc. could still be retaining/containing any preformed vitamin A from something they were fed before I got them despite me feeding them out for a few days first. (I do know that insects have some preformed vitamin A in their eyes naturally though...but I can't see it being much. Also, I'm reasonably sure that some insects contain a bit more vitamin A in them than that naturally...but I have no proof of it being preformed yet.)

desultadox said..."The funny thing is Rep-Cal is proud to have no vitamin A. From their site"...I'm glad that they use beta carotene! I can then use this vitamin powder for all my reptiles without any fear of overdosing them on preformed vitamin A and if some of them can't convert beta carotene and need it I can give it to them separately...in an appropriate amount.

CleanLineChameleons said..."my chameleons can convert beta carotene to a usable A because mine still reproduce which is impossible with insufficient vitamin A."...this is one more thing that makes me wonder...my veileds live long lives, can produce healthy offspring which also live long lives. I haven't had an eye issue or a dead tail tip or other issues associated with vitamin A problems in years with a veiled (or any other chameleon for that matter).

I would also like to know how long these chameleons that are given preformed vitamin A live.

Please keep in mind that vitamins A and D3 are antagonistic to each other in some ways and you need to look at how much D3 (from supplements) compared to vitamin A they are getting to decide how much vitamin A the chameleon really needs. Also...if you are using a fish source of vitamin A doesn't it have D3 in it too??

Still lots to learn...

 

[sandrachameleon]

What about the bee pollen. I feed that in small amounts to the crickets. Is there retinol or carotenes in bee pollen?

 

[kenya]

What about the bee pollen. I feed that in small amounts to the crickets. Is there retinol or carotenes in bee pollen?

Good question. I also gutload with bee pollen. I also use hemp seed nuts, mixed nuts, spirulina, wheat germ, lecithin and all kinds of other "powerfoods". I know there is vitamin A (and a ton of other really awesome nutrients) in the hemp seed nuts but I am curious if it is preformed or just beta carotene since it is a plant source.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Good question. I also gutload with bee pollen. I also use hemp seed nuts, mixed nuts, spirulina, wheat germ, lecithin and all kinds of other "powerfoods". I know there is vitamin A (and a ton of other really awesome nutrients) in the hemp seed nuts but I am curious if it is preformed or just beta carotene since it is a plant source.

I just bought some hemp seed nuts last month. Havent used em yet, but I understand these may make a good addition to the gutload. Would be interesting to know whether or not there's preformed A in that or not too.

kinyonga - you're so right, there is still plenty to learn.

 

[kinyonga]

Since bee pollen is pollen from plants I would guess that its beta carotene.

 

[kinyonga]

"Plants do not contain vitamin A, but many dark-green or dark-yellow plants (including the famous carrot) contain carotenoids such as beta-carotene that serve as provitamins because they are converted within the intestinal mucosa to retinol during absorption. "...
http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/misc_topics/vitamina.html

 

[kinyonga]

More thoughts/questions...
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/68753/abstract....
"Low vitamin A shortened life span and resulted in a number of gross and histological pathologies."
If low vitamin A leads to shorter lives then if the chameleon lives a long life does it mean that it had enough vitamin A?

 

[Sepioteuthis]

Here we go again.
This discussion keeps coming back because some people have chameleons that do fine without preformed vit.A while others have seen problems caused by vit A deficiency.
Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle, maybe chameleons can convert, but just not very efficiently. In which case they need a lot of beta carotene, more then other reptiles with similar diets would need. My guess is that in the wild they supplement their insectivorous diet when needed with snails and little vertebrates (lizards, birds) as soon as they are big enough to do so. Since vit A is stored in the body, one occasional dose of vit. A can last a long time.

This is just my theory and personally I'm going to stick with my vet's (dr. Stahl) recommendation of once a month dusting with reptivite (contains preformed vit A).

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

Suzanne,

That is a pretty safe conclusion. The only thing I tend to have any question about is "A while others have seen problems caused by vit A deficiency."

What tests are we running to know this is the true cause? You cannot do blood test because hyper and hypovitaminosis would show the same results. And can we just go off of signs, i.e. eye problems (which could be cause by so many other factors)?

Its a tough call...I respect Stahl very much and I am glad such a good vet is well known and working with our animals, but on the other hand he is no herp nutritionalist. The main thing is vets only see animals when something is wrong and nutritionalists work on more preventative solutions so you never have to see a vet.

I agree more research should be done, I wish a herp nutritionalist would get on here and do vitamin mineral makeups of our feeders and so some testing on the upper tolerable and lower tolerable limits.

Chris

 

[Sepioteuthis]

Actually, Dr. Stahl told me that he has consulted with a nutritionist on this matter. He also doesn't just treat chameleons, he has a lot of experience keeping and breeding them as well.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

I believe some species are more vulnerabel than others. Veileds seem to be able to do with or without, depending on their care. That leads me to believe that it's not a simple question of yes or no, but possibly dependant on other dietary intake as well. Metabolism of beta carotene may be dependant on metabolic paths which are impared by other nutritional problems. In other words, the ability of a chameleon to metabolize beta carotene into useable vitamin A may be impaired in some instances by other dietary problems.

The last year, I had my first case of a chameleon with A defeciency. Her eye swelled and went back down after some dietary A was given.

A long time ago, I went through a period of using only herptivite, but I never had any problems. In that time, I bred a lot of veileds.

One thing that was different was more recently, I had given mostly roaches as food. roaches that I bred. In the past, I was giving a high proprtion of commercially produced crickets and superworms. It may very well be that they were retaining a good bit of vitamin A from their commercial diet.

In my roaches, I was feeding mostly greens and fresh veggies. no preformed A in that.

I had started quite some time ago, using a multivitamin wiht preformed A in it every couple weeks. The only time I have ever had a problem was when I stopped using it for a few months.

I have seen more problems with vitamin A in melleri and jacksonii than other species. Most of the time, it's been fixed by small amounts of reptivite or preformed A itself.

Veileds eat plants, and digest them very well. I bet they can do things most species can't - metabolically speaking.

 

[desultadox]

I, too, noticed vitamin A problems once I switched from crickets to roaches. To be honest, I fed less of everything else (silks/horns/supers) when I switched to roaches just because I always seem to have too many! So there are a couple of variables in that one.