Oustalet x Panther Hybrids just started hatching! This is Neo and his lil brother Snoop (born 4/20/2020)

[cyberlocc]

I think hybrids happen and live longer than 6 months and make it to adult life stages. Keepers have not come to keeping chameleons in captivity to live nearly as long as they live in the wild. Calumma parsonii parsonii is estimated to live over 20-25 years in the natural habitat and an old Calumma parsonii parsonii in captivity as posted by some site is only 9-11 years. Why would not that apply to chameleon hybrids with regards to in captivity and in the wild?

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

Well, Parsons aside as I recall seeing the lifespan estimate of that lenght as well cant recall if wild though, but I blieve you.

That is not the case for Panthers or Os, they live average 1-3 years in the wild and 5-7 in captivity that is a complete opposite to that theory, in the case of these species.
Here is one of a plethora of links about that very thing.

https://animaldiversity.org/accounts/Furcifer_pardalis/

As to the Hybrids, than we would see them. That is akin to telling me to believe in unicorns, but I will agree, that what I stated about the one depicted can go both ways, while we dont know thats a hybrid, we dont know that many of the Wild thought to be either Panthers or Os, are not, but then we are right back to unicorns.

If they exist and live, to adult hood or at all. Then someone would have pictures, surely more than 1, and someone would have DNA tested it, to try and get their name on a new species. Its simply not realistic.

What we know is that its possible, we know that Craig bought a bunch, with intentions to keep and for some reason sold them off, in a hurry, we know that the few we can trace (One easily) passed. We know that Backwater ceased all posts, and looking deeper has been asked on Facebook, here and other forums numerous times about what happened with them, new pics ect, and has ignored all of said inquiries. Which makes sense, when you play god and fail, you dont want to tell the world about it.

Those facts, paint a pretty evident picture. One that we will see again, if OP states his babies passing.

Besides that, we can already see in other species, this does not work. We have plenty of sickly, disease ridden, barely surviving species from this practice. A great example being the English Bulldog, that live miserable sad lives, barely able to breath, barely able to breed, not able to give birth, pretty much certainly requiring at least a single surgery in their life span. Dont get me wrong, they are my favorite dog, I LOVE them, but the designer pet trade and humans thinking they are smarter than mother nature has failed them miserably.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Well, Parsons aside as I recall seeing the lifespan estimate of that lenght as well cant recall if wild though, but I blieve you.

That is not the case for Panthers or Os, they live average 1-3 years in the wild and 5-7 in captivity that is a complete opposite to that theory, in the case of these species.
Here is one of a plethora of links about that very thing.

https://animaldiversity.org/accounts/Furcifer_pardalis/

As to the Hybrids, than we would see them. That is akin to telling me to believe in unicorns, but I will agree, that what I stated about the one depicted can go both ways, while we dont know thats a hybrid, we dont know that many of the Wild thought to be either Panthers or Os, are not, but then we are right back to unicorns.

If they exist and live, to adult hood or at all. Then someone would have pictures, surely more than 1, and someone would have DNA tested it, to try and get their name on a new species. Its simply not realistic.

What we know is that its possible, we know that Craig bought a bunch, with intentions to keep and for some reason sold them off, in a hurry, we know that the few we can trace (One easily) passed. We know that Backwater ceased all posts, and looking deeper has been asked on Facebook, here and other forums numerous times about what happened with them, new pics ect, and has ignored all of said inquiries. Which makes sense, when you play god and fail, you dont want to tell the world about it.

Those facts, paint a pretty evident picture. One that we will see again, if OP states his babies passing.

Besides that, we can already see in other species, this does not work. We have plenty of sickly, disease ridden, barely surviving species from this practice. A great example being the English Bulldog, that live miserable sad lives, barely able to breath, barely able to breed, not able to give birth, pretty much certainly requiring at least a single surgery in their life span. Dont get me wrong, they are my favorite dog, I LOVE them, but the designer pet trade and humans thinking they are smarter than mother nature has failed them miserably.

The above estimate for Furcifer pardalis and oustaleti maximum age in the wild I would not invest to much stock into. Chameleons to my knowledge grow slower in the wild due to lack of food and less then 100% of the time optimum growing conditions. Captive chameleons have a lavish lifer style and optimum growing conditiions 24/7. However chameleons attain there largest size as wild caught individuals. I think the above estimate for maximum age for a maximum age wild Furcifer pardalis or oustaleti falls way short of those species actual maximum age in the wild. My Trioceros pfefferi male Stephan was between five and seven years old and was supposed to be a shorter lived species. I think calamities aside he could have lived longer in the wild.

As for hybrid not being capable of living long lives. Jack Asses can live complete lives and have occasionally been known to breed and reproduce viable offspring. The same is accurate said with Ligers, Tigons and plenty of hybrid plant species.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[jamest0o0]

I think hybrids happen and live longer than 6 months and make it to adult life stages. Keepers have not come to keeping chameleons in captivity to live nearly as long as they live in the wild. Calumma parsonii parsonii is estimated to live over 20-25 years in the natural habitat and an old Calumma parsonii parsonii in captivity as posted by some site is only 9-11 years. Why would not that apply to chameleon hybrids with regards to in captivity and in the wild?

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

All hybrid arguments aside, I'd need some proof that wild chameleons are living longer than captivity. Maybe some, maybe even Parsons because there still isn't much info about them. Overall, I doubt this is the case for most chams. But I could be wrong

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

All hybrid arguments aside, I'd need some proof that wild chameleons are living longer than captivity. Maybe some, maybe even Parsons because there still isn't much info about them. Overall, I doubt this is the case for most chams. But I could be wrong

I am saying calamities aside for those chameleons that live a complete lives/life in the wild. Of course there are going to be chameleons in the wild that die due to accidents, predators and illness. That would bring down the average.

The estimate above says 5 years maximum for captivity for Furcifer pardalis. My last Furcifer pardalis was documented at passing away at 8 years of age. That estimate was far short of my last couple Furcifer pardalis longevity marks.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

This is a good link to an updated article about the age of chameleons. Look for the article "A Myth about longevity of chameleons unleashed: Chameleons live long!", by Petr Necas and Kent Manchen.

https://www.archaius.eu/archaius-1-2-2020/

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[cyberlocc]

This is a good link to an updated article about the age of chameleons. Look for the article "A Myth about longevity of chameleons unleashed: Chameleons live long!", by Petr Necas and Kent Manchen.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

Link?

In the most polite way I can say this, as I do like Petr. His statements surrounding that, on this very site have been what everyone in the thread felt as pure conjecture.

His statements were "If cared for by my guide, which is different then others, Panthers could live 10+ Years and Velieds 15+ something like that. The ages may be off a year or two however.

The question was asked, if he had Chameleons live this long, the answer was no. Soooo, that would be a Believe half of what you hear scenario to me. AFAIK, he has zero evidence in his own trials. The ones he says he does have, are "This user said on Facebook they have a Veiled that lived 15 years" ask them for the slightest shred of proof of claim and you are attacked by "Why dont you believe me? Are you calling me a Liar" which to be blunt, when you reply like that, I 100% am, I wasn't but I am now. If your going to make Claim that go so far and away from everyone else's experiences, your going to have to have some degree of proof, at least for me.

I am not saying he is wrong, or lying, just that I would personally like to see more evidence before jumping on board, and drinking that particular cup of koolaid.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Link?

In the most polite way I can say this, as I do like Petr. His statements surrounding that, on this very site have been what everyone in the thread felt as pure conjecture.

His statements were "If cared for why my guide, which is diffrent then others, Panthers could live 10+ Years and Velieds 15" something like that. The ages may be off a year or two however.

The question was asked, if he had Chameleons live this long, the answer was no. Soooo, that would be a Believe half of what you hear scenario to me. AFAIK, he has zero evidence in his own trials. The ones he says he does have, are "This user said on Facebook they have a Veiled that lived 15 years" ask them for the slightest shred of proof of claim and you are attacked by "Why dont you believe me? Are you calling me a Liar" which to be blunt, when you reply like that, I 100% am, I wasn't but I am now. If your going to make Claim that go so far and away from everyone else's experiences, your going to have to have some degree of proof, at least for me.

I apologize. I just fixed the link.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[summerseeking]

Or there any updates on how these guys did?

 

[salty dog]

I would never breed different species together.....maybe breeding a native madagascar turtle with a panther will give the turtle more color and the panther a protective shell....never know...

 

[PardonMyPardalis]

Ya they can be fertile. That flipper Craig Wyatt, use to breed them.

IDK, they end up as slightly bigger panthers, with a tad more color than a O, but defiantly not panther levels of color. Pretty much Grey Panthers, with some slight colors.


Not something I would do, personally. These guys will never ever come in contact in the wild, Os are from the spiny forest in Southwest Madagascar, Panthers are from the Tropical areas of the North and Humid Forests of the East. I think Craig got some to survive for a time, but I dont think they lived normal healthy lives, could be wrong though.

I think the idea from BWR, and Craig, was to create a Hardier, Larger Panther, or a Colorful O, which ever way you want to look at it.

You can search Panther Hybrid, or Oustalet x Panther, and find threads. This is has been done quite alot, I have never heard of one living past a year, not saying it is not possible though.

It is actually very possible for that to happen in the wild O’s are all over Madagascar