over feeding?
- Thread starter robbh3
- Start date
Graves923
Chameleon Enthusiast
Pulled this from the caresheet I linked yesterday for you...
"Temperature:
Baby/juvenile (<9 months): ambient 72-80F (22-26C), basking 85F (29C)
Adult males: ambient 75-80F (23-26C), basking 90-95F (32-35C)
Adult females: ambient 75-80F (23-26C), basking 85F (29C) "
"Temperature:
Baby/juvenile (<9 months): ambient 72-80F (22-26C), basking 85F (29C)
Adult males: ambient 75-80F (23-26C), basking 90-95F (32-35C)
Adult females: ambient 75-80F (23-26C), basking 85F (29C) "
Ok so you have already gotten a lot of different feedback. I am going to go through every bit of info you have provided and in red bold I will give feedback. I will be duplicating feedback as well. It looks as though you are reading and looking at info judging from your pictures which is great but there is more to correct as well. So don't get frustrated as there is a ton to the basics. Read, read, and read more lol.
your chameleon - Chamaeleo calyptratus (Vailed Chameleon), sold as a male, not sure of age but he's close to 8"ish, he's been with me for about 3 months.
handling - only to remove him from the cage when cleaning.
feeding- at the moment he is eating around 8-10 lg crickets, 3-5 wax worms and possibly a sm super worm daily. meal worms and red runner roaches are offered but are rarely eaten. wax worms are the fav for sure. Wax worms need to be taken out of the main diet. These are like feeding cake. They do love them so they are a great training treat like 1 or 2 a day but not a staple. Mealworms really just do not have much nutritional value. Superworms are better but can be very addictive. Roaches are always the better feeder since they gutload really well due to having a long digestive tract. However most chams will only go on to these when they are older and when other "yummy" feeders are not offered.
supplements - Rep-Cal brand with both multi vit and calcium. food is dusted 6 days a week with calcium and 1 day a week with multi vit. So I would drop these and get Repashy Calcium plus LoD. 3oz jar. https://www.amazon.com/Repashy-Calc...1568822375&sprefix=repashy+cal,aps,497&sr=8-1
This would be the only supplement you use. It have everything you need. You use this and only this lightly dusted on feeders at every feeding. Depending on what you are currently using you are either leaving out calcium with D3, overdosing with it, or it is included in your multi vit. But even then a multi should only be given 2 times a month. So to take the error out of the equation repashy calcium plus LoD and this has Vitamin A as well for eye health.
watering- using a waterfall machine and misting once a day for about 15-20 sec. i see him drink often. Ok this is a big no no. Pull the waterfall. I know it looks fine but it is what you can't see in the machine that is the worry. It is a bacteria breeding ground. Now for misting... We have to improve the length of time. he needs a long mist of 2 minutes or so in the morning and another one in the late afternoon. There is a two fold reason for this. One to clean his eyes and two to trigger a drinking response. Both of these need a longer mist time because most chams will not do either in a short mist session. Kinda like us taking a 2 minute shower vs a 10.... What can you really get done in 2 minutes
I am going to give you additional links for naturalistic hydration. read and listen to these. fecal description - oblong shaped with around 1/4 urine (white) and the rest a dk brown. 1-2 pieces sometimes around 1-2 cm each. looks soft and wet when coming out but is a solid mass though. Sounds normal.
history - i have no known history about him
cage type - reptibreeze, all screen, 18x18x24 Ok so we need a massive upgrade here for the lil dude.
Your going to want to add a drainage tray as well for water run off. My favorite cage brand is dragonstrand.com they are quality cages made with all the needs of a cham in mind. Check his out. but he also sells his drip pans and dragon ledges that will work with other cage brands. DIY cages are much better quality then reptibreeze and less expensive then dragon strand. Also when they have them in stock you can immediately get them where dragon strand has a wait time. This is the size he has to have as a minimum. https://www.diycages.com/collection...ducts/sc4-48x24x24-jumbo-vertical-screen-cagelighting- 1 zoomed reptisun 5.0 12" beam in the back of cage, then in a double dome in the middle with his 60w daylight blue zoomed heating light plus another reptisun 5.0 bulb 13w. UVB lights are on for 12hrs a day. Ok for the lighting the compact screw in UVB bulb has to go. These are virtually useless. Then the T5HO fixture with the 5.0 bulb needs to be pulled more to the middle of the cage. You can angle the heat lamp so that he is getting heat while getting uvb. When you upgrade the cage you have to get the T5HO fixture as well that will run the length of the new cage. I would recommend a dual fixture so you have one 5.0 or 6% arcadia uvb bulb and then a daylight bulb. The daylight bulb will help the plants thrive as well. 12 hours lights on and then 12 hours total darkness. Another thing about the lighting your looking at the highest basking branch being about 7-8 inches from the top of the cage. Then the UVB sits directly on the cage top. This will give you the proper UVI level for the UVB. Also important to note that the UVB bulb must be replaced every 9-12 months depending on brand.
temperature- basking 91-97, ambient 77ish, lowest overnight 68. i have a digital temp and humidity gauge placed in those spots. Too hot.... Max 85 degrees at basking or your gonna fry the boy
drop your bulb wattage or lift the fixture higher off the top. humidity - levels are mostly in the high 30's to low 40's with out misting. So this is actually perfect you want a 30-40% level during the day. At night is when you want it to be much higher when the cage is at its coolest. This is typically when you see foggers or cool mist humidifiers used. I am posting the naturalistic hydration links for this.
Plants- i have a live ficus plant that he really seems to love and a few other smaller live plants that came from josh's frogs and were deemed safe to use. also i have a few larger fake plants which he also seems to like. there are also vines and spider wood. This is good. The goal is to remove all fake plants and any fake vines that have pieces that can come off if he rubs his eyes on them. Exo terra vines are really bad about flaking piece off into eyes.
placement - the cage is in the living room where there is some activity. i live alone so its pretty much only me moving about. i do have an 8lbs dog but she never goes near the cage and its up on a table about 3.5' up. the top of the cage 4.5' from the ground. Perfect and even though the puppy is a tiny thing remember the cham is going to look at her like she is a predator so just make sure the cage sits high. This will be easier when you have the larger cage as well.
location - boulder, CO, USA
please give me much advice as to what i should be doing differently and better. i want this chameleon to thrive!
Ok now for a ton of additional info.
cage: https://www.diycages.com/collection...ducts/sc4-48x24x24-jumbo-vertical-screen-cage
cages and accessories: https://dragonstrand.com/
Naturalistic hydration podcast (all his podcasts are wonderful): https://www.chameleonbreeder.com/podcast/ep-89-naturalistic-hydration-for-chameleons/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/basic-info-on-misting-and-fogging.2325/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blo...s-through-the-fog-without-dispelling-it.2400/
Care sheet for Veiled (read through this) : https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/caresheets/veiled/
Ok what questions do you have? I would say looking at everything the priority is cage upgrade, supplements, and get that basking temp down.
Your welcome. It is a ton of info. Trust me I know. But you will find that the basic husbandry all builds upon each other. Once you have all the pieces the rest falls into place. Good luck with everything and let us know if you have other questions.
nightanole
Chameleon Enthusiast
Ok so you have already gotten a lot of different feedback. I am going to go through every bit of info you have provided and in red bold I will give feedback. I will be duplicating feedback as well. It looks as though you are reading and looking at info judging from your pictures which is great but there is more to correct as well. So don't get frustrated as there is a ton to the basics. Read, read, and read more lol.
your chameleon - Chamaeleo calyptratus (Vailed Chameleon), sold as a male, not sure of age but he's close to 8"ish, he's been with me for about 3 months.
handling - only to remove him from the cage when cleaning.
feeding- at the moment he is eating around 8-10 lg crickets, 3-5 wax worms and possibly a sm super worm daily. meal worms and red runner roaches are offered but are rarely eaten. wax worms are the fav for sure. Wax worms need to be taken out of the main diet. These are like feeding cake. They do love them so they are a great training treat like 1 or 2 a day but not a staple. Mealworms really just do not have much nutritional value. Superworms are better but can be very addictive. Roaches are always the better feeder since they gutload really well due to having a long digestive tract. However most chams will only go on to these when they are older and when other "yummy" feeders are not offered.
supplements - Rep-Cal brand with both multi vit and calcium. food is dusted 6 days a week with calcium and 1 day a week with multi vit. So I would drop these and get Repashy Calcium plus LoD. 3oz jar. https://www.amazon.com/Repashy-Calcium-Plus-LoD-JAR/dp/B00DLJRMV2/ref=sr_1_1?crid=355SGXIU60OW3&keywords=repashy+calcium+plus+lod&qid=1568822375&sprefix=repashy+cal,aps,497&sr=8-1
This would be the only supplement you use. It have everything you need. You use this and only this lightly dusted on feeders at every feeding. Depending on what you are currently using you are either leaving out calcium with D3, overdosing with it, or it is included in your multi vit. But even then a multi should only be given 2 times a month. So to take the error out of the equation repashy calcium plus LoD and this has Vitamin A as well for eye health.
watering- using a waterfall machine and misting once a day for about 15-20 sec. i see him drink often. Ok this is a big no no. Pull the waterfall. I know it looks fine but it is what you can't see in the machine that is the worry. It is a bacteria breeding ground. Now for misting... We have to improve the length of time. he needs a long mist of 2 minutes or so in the morning and another one in the late afternoon. There is a two fold reason for this. One to clean his eyes and two to trigger a drinking response. Both of these need a longer mist time because most chams will not do either in a short mist session. Kinda like us taking a 2 minute shower vs a 10.... What can you really get done in 2 minutes
fecal description - oblong shaped with around 1/4 urine (white) and the rest a dk brown. 1-2 pieces sometimes around 1-2 cm each. looks soft and wet when coming out but is a solid mass though. Sounds normal.
history - i have no known history about him
cage type - reptibreeze, all screen, 18x18x24 Ok so we need a massive upgrade here for the lil dude.
lighting- 1 zoomed reptisun 5.0 12" beam in the back of cage, then in a double dome in the middle with his 60w daylight blue zoomed heating light plus another reptisun 5.0 bulb 13w. UVB lights are on for 12hrs a day. Ok for the lighting the compact screw in UVB bulb has to go. These are virtually useless. Then the T5HO fixture with the 5.0 bulb needs to be pulled more to the middle of the cage. You can angle the heat lamp so that he is getting heat while getting uvb. When you upgrade the cage you have to get the T5HO fixture as well that will run the length of the new cage. I would recommend a dual fixture so you have one 5.0 or 6% arcadia uvb bulb and then a daylight bulb. The daylight bulb will help the plants thrive as well. 12 hours lights on and then 12 hours total darkness. Another thing about the lighting your looking at the highest basking branch being about 7-8 inches from the top of the cage. Then the UVB sits directly on the cage top. This will give you the proper UVI level for the UVB. Also important to note that the UVB bulb must be replaced every 9-12 months depending on brand.
temperature- basking 91-97, ambient 77ish, lowest overnight 68. i have a digital temp and humidity gauge placed in those spots. Too hot.... Max 85 degrees at basking or your gonna fry the boy
humidity - levels are mostly in the high 30's to low 40's with out misting. So this is actually perfect you want a 30-40% level during the day. At night is when you want it to be much higher when the cage is at its coolest. This is typically when you see foggers or cool mist humidifiers used. I am posting the naturalistic hydration links for this.
Plants- i have a live ficus plant that he really seems to love and a few other smaller live plants that came from josh's frogs and were deemed safe to use. also i have a few larger fake plants which he also seems to like. there are also vines and spider wood. This is good. The goal is to remove all fake plants and any fake vines that have pieces that can come off if he rubs his eyes on them. Exo terra vines are really bad about flaking piece off into eyes.
placement - the cage is in the living room where there is some activity. i live alone so its pretty much only me moving about. i do have an 8lbs dog but she never goes near the cage and its up on a table about 3.5' up. the top of the cage 4.5' from the ground. Perfect and even though the puppy is a tiny thing remember the cham is going to look at her like she is a predator so just make sure the cage sits high. This will be easier when you have the larger cage as well.
location - boulder, CO, USA
please give me much advice as to what i should be doing differently and better. i want this chameleon to thrive!
Ok now for a ton of additional info.
cage: https://www.diycages.com/collection...ducts/sc4-48x24x24-jumbo-vertical-screen-cage
cages and accessories: https://dragonstrand.com/
Naturalistic hydration podcast (all his podcasts are wonderful): https://www.chameleonbreeder.com/podcast/ep-89-naturalistic-hydration-for-chameleons/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/basic-info-on-misting-and-fogging.2325/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blo...s-through-the-fog-without-dispelling-it.2400/
Care sheet for Veiled (read through this) : https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/caresheets/veiled/
Ok what questions do you have? I would say looking at everything the priority is cage upgrade, supplements, and get that basking temp down.
uhhh you sure that 12" "beam" is a T5HO?
And 30-40% humidity during the day is nose bleed dry for humans. Gotta up that to at least 60%. I think arizona desert in summer is 26%.
PS: Do we have a list of juvenile "staple feeders"? Seems the running theme is just crickets crickets crickets, since juveniles shun dubia. But what else is there for a readily available staple? You certainly dont want "just" crickets.
No, for a Veiled 30-40% humidity is what all the big names in the cham world are recommending for daytime. The 12 inch may not be a T5 But they are saying it is a 5.0 zoomed, so yes it could be a T8, but he needs to do an entire cage overhaul and get a new fixture for the new cage anyways so I did not pick that one a part. And we don't have a juvenile list but most will turn down all other feeders anyways because they like the movement of the crickets and crickets are what 99% of breeders raise them on.
nightanole
Chameleon Enthusiast
You got some links to the latest care sheets from the breeders, im interested in this low humidity requirement. If true it will really help out a few folks here in ohio that try to maintain 50-60% over the winter, and end up with URI's from mold build up.
And i must find a tasty staple for juveniles that dont make noise nor "snack" on the juvenile in some cases
Maybe some fast climbing roaches or something. "normal" green banana roaches are fast breeders and half the weight of an adult cricket...Hmm butter worms are 16% protein 5% fat. Earthworms are 10% protein and 1.5% fat, and 25% higher in calcium vs crickets. crickets are 21% protein and 6% fat.
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I will find them for you later... It was somewhere in one of the facebook groups I am a part of that it was shared most recently. Peter Necas speaks to the lower humidity levels for Veileds and Bill Strand does as well. I want to say I read something by John Courtney as well but I do not remember for sure.You got some links to the latest care sheets from the breeders, im interested in this low humidity requirement. If true it will really help out a few folks here in ohio that try to maintain 50-60% over the winter, and end up with URI's from mold build up.
And i must find a tasty staple for juveniles that dont make noise nor "snack" on the juvenile in some cases
nightanole
Chameleon Enthusiast
Meh dont worry about it. I was hoping for something printable i could give them. A Chameleon Breeder Podcast, facebook screen grab, or book you have to buy, isnt going to help. I was hoping you had a few sites that bred veileds (a rare find) that had "their" care methods listed. I LOVE when breeders list what they use for the babies and adults because you get a complete picture so you dont have to mix and match feeders/supplements/lighting etc.
Ok let me know if this link works for you. This is pulled straight from one of the groups I am in that Petr runs. And credit for the material is Petr NecasYou got some links to the latest care sheets from the breeders, im interested in this low humidity requirement. If true it will really help out a few folks here in ohio that try to maintain 50-60% over the winter, and end up with URI's from mold build up.
And i must find a tasty staple for juveniles that dont make noise nor "snack" on the juvenile in some cases
Hmm butter worms are 16% protein 5% fat. Earthworms are 10% protein and 1.5% fat, and 25% higher in calcium vs crickets. crickets are 21% protein and 6% fat.
https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/CC...PaaNpsdzRH1v02mNcX7ChAt_Eu38ClXLe2E-5vvkmZACQ
I wanna say also that there is something in this podcast by Bill Strand but I do not remember as I also had a few email conversations with him at the beginning of the year when I was searching out information. https://www.chameleonbreeder.com/podcast/ep-89-naturalistic-hydration-for-chameleons/
I see it very frequently in several of the FB groups. These are the groups that the gentlemen share their info in most. I personally have been running 40% humidity since February of this year. I have never had an issue with RI with Beman he is very healthy. I found that when his humidity levels were higher he would gape more frequently as well which is what started me on my path of figuring out the best level. I do follow the low humidity in the day as he would have in Yemen then I get my levels up to 92% at night with my cool mist humidifier. I run it for 4 hours when the cage is its coldest from 12am-4am. I do model my misting after the podcast but my misting sessions are 4 minutes prior to the basking lamp kicking on in the morning and after it has kicked off in the evening. I run my basking lamp from 8:30-5:30pm with my T5's running from 7:30-7:30pm.
As I said Beman has done wonderfully with this method and these levels. I know there was more like paper type info he put out there as well but I have to dig to find it.
nightanole
Chameleon Enthusiast
Ok let me know if this link works for you. This is pulled straight from one of the groups I am in that Petr runs. And credit for the material is Petr Necas
https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/CC1 Yemen Veiled Chameleon Chamaeleo calyptratus PROFILE.pdf?token=AWx64ZgrnK6qQ4RysrgEdirSZf05RRN2I40J-z-hqb7YM9wq38Ci2T0SyTf8lyDL2cn6DjnYVkrUiKq1fM2ov_RShX6mNEQCw8WYg9Th5YvXtEOcexN5L4nwa75slgCg9PaaNpsdzRH1v02mNcX7ChAt_Eu38ClXLe2E-5vvkmZACQ
I wanna say also that there is something in this podcast by Bill Strand but I do not remember as I also had a few email conversations with him at the beginning of the year when I was searching out information. https://www.chameleonbreeder.com/podcast/ep-89-naturalistic-hydration-for-chameleons/
I see it very frequently in several of the FB groups. These are the groups that the gentlemen share their info in most. I personally have been running 40% humidity since February of this year. I have never had an issue with RI with Beman he is very healthy. I found that when his humidity levels were higher he would gape more frequently as well which is what started me on my path of figuring out the best level. I do follow the low humidity in the day as he would have in Yemen then I get my levels up to 92% at night with my cool mist humidifier. I run it for 4 hours when the cage is its coldest from 12am-4am. I do model my misting after the podcast but my misting sessions are 4 minutes prior to the basking lamp kicking on in the morning and after it has kicked off in the evening. I run my basking lamp from 8:30-5:30pm with my T5's running from 7:30-7:30pm.
Yea the 2 folks i would be giving it to are the "why is the tv hooked to the typewriter" in terms of tech, thats why "I" would have to give them a printout with good formatting. Ill check the link when i get home tonight, i see pdf in that gibberish, so there is hope.
