Parsonii

[OldChamKeeper]

I tend to agree with SoCal's last post Kent. It's safe to say that even talking about Parsonii brings out major emotions in people. It's the only time I ever received hate mail for asking around for a Cham.

I respect your opinion that buying any Parsonii in some way supports smuggling, that's what you seem to be saying. Hopefully you'll respect my opinion that not every Parsonii purchased supports smuggling. The biggest problem I had with breeding these back in the 90's was that other keepers were not willing to share their failures and successes with incubation, many acted like it was a inside stock tip. By not sharing, it results in many people making the same mistakes. Add in the factor that there are so very few people who have pairs to work with and the problem snowballs downhill. I never had a problem sharing info or experiences but I always had a problem getting info. Chris was one of the first (despite his young age) back in the day to be so willing to share info, it's how we "met".

It's just my opinion, but the trick to making sure this incredible animal doesn't become extinct is by a combination of conserving it's habitat and learning how to breed it in captivity. Since it's not a cute little polar bear they don't get much attention from anybody other than those of us here on these forums who really care about a "goofy lizard".

 

[Kent67]

It seems there is an "Animals Committee" (comprised of Homo Sapiens, I presume )

Haha. Thanks, needed that

Based on my very limited knowledge of Meller's, it is very easy for me to imagine that there would be no remnants remaining of legally imported Parsonii groups.

There actually are. First generations and wasn't one clutch a second generation? Though very, very few.

 

[Kent67]

It's just my opinion, but the trick to making sure this incredible animal doesn't become extinct is by a combination of conserving it's habitat and learning how to breed it in captivity.

Sorry Ralph, I really, really want out of this thread now but that just isn't true. How many illegally imported Parson's have been imported into the US in the last, say, 10 years? Compare that number (admittedly low) to the number of C. parsonii hatched in the US. I can't even imagine the disparity, anyone know? Do the numbers justify us "saving" them from extinction? People much more experienced than you and I have been trying and failing to reproduce this species for well over 20 years. Why hold out hope for a "breakthrough" when we already know that none of the chameleon species taken from Madagascar (panthers, etc) will be reproduced here and returned there later?

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Haha. Thanks, needed that



There actually are. First generations and wasn't one clutch a second generation? Though very, very few.

I don't expect a reply. This thread probably has come to its logical conclusion. But I did want to clarify that I was referring to that original pre-CITES-restricted group of imported animals. And, if there is still a remnant of them, that's terrific.

 

[OldChamKeeper]

Why hold out hope for a "breakthrough" when we already know that none of the chameleon species taken from Madagascar (panthers, etc) will be reproduced here and returned there later?

Truthfully Kent, we never know what the future holds. I can envision a few things but some people call me old and hopeful. I do know that nothing comes from negativity. The majority of Reptile hobbyists now promote the benefits of CBB animals, back in the day people would just say there wasn't a justifible difference between imports and CBB in order to just sell those imports.

What I'm surprised at is that nobody has gone over to Madagascar, taught the folks living there how to properly farm raise these animals, and earn a living without damaging the habitat (as opposed to making room for crops).

I mean no disrespect towards you Kent in any way what so ever. It's good to know that there are so many who care about these animals.

 

[Kent67]

What I'm surprised at is that nobody has gone over to Madagascar, taught the folks living there how to properly farm raise these animals, and earn a living without damaging the habitat (as opposed to making room for crops).

I mean no disrespect towards you Kent in any way what so ever. It's good to know that there are so many who care about these animals.

No disrespect taken/felt and I hope none was taken from me either as nothing was meant to be personal. As for the farms, I hope someone in Madagascar will eventually do something like what Joe Beraducci has done in Tanzania to allow true F1's out. However, I can even see problems with that since a farm located in 'Tana or Tamatave (where I believe several are now) would potentially have different climates and soil conditions that where C. parsonii are found. Perhaps the farm at La Mandraka (Perinet) might be an option, if it is still owned by Andre Peyrieras. Anyway, that's the future. For now, CITES doesn't differentiate between WC and farm-raised/cb specimens. They're all restricted.

 

[Chuck G]

What started out as innocent posting of Parsonii pics turned out to be a fiasco of moral judgement. This is a prime example of why everyone is underground with anything related to Parsonii.
I am not here to debate or change anyone's mind. I have several and I can tell you they were not purchased on a whim and they are better taken care of than myself.If anyone wants to pm me about anything related to Parsonii,feel free.
The public forum is not the way to go on here. I even welcome those with different opinions. I stay cool like the other side of the pillow!

 

[OldChamKeeper]

What started out as innocent posting of Parsonii pics turned out to be a fiasco of moral judgement. This is a prime example of why everyone is underground with anything related to Parsonii.
I am not here to debate or change anyone's mind. I have several and I can tell you they were not purchased on a whim and they are better taken care of than myself.If anyone wants to pm me about anything related to Parsonii,feel free.
The public forum is not the way to go on here. I even welcome those with different opinions. I stay cool like the other side of the pillow!

Agreed. Completely

 

[Steven Oosterhoff]

The reason why people are keeping their lips tight has nothing to do with success but more with failure and the “illegal” side that mostly accompanies the Parsonii’s. I recently had a discussion on a Spanish forum about this.

The people in Europe are not further then the people here in Europe. I do know several people who claim to have eggs in Europe but like mentioned by Chris, why is it that nobody in Europe and in our case , the Us can provide you with no info ? No breeder, keeper and no petstores give out any information. Every time I ask for info no response is given or the response in useless.

I would like to say that it is a bad thing that people sell a clutch of Parsons without any info what so ever. People are paying crazy amounts of money and don’t receive any info. I have seen people selling a clutch of parsons here on this forum and I see it on several forums in Europe.
I think people who are selling them are taking no responsibility. This is also for people who are buying them. Why is it no information is given out form which country they are, who is the breeder, where are the pictures and (small) movies (like for instance youtube) of the mating ritual of the Parsonii’s, the actual mating, the laying of the eggs, the eggs coming out, the raising of the juveniles etc etc. How is it this info is freely available with prove with calyptratus or pardalis ?

In Europe now people are selling Calumma Parsonii orange eyes, yellow lips, yellow giants, Christifer and a new color variation, the green giant. All at the same time. On all the forums or sites they are being sold no info is given. I you ask no response is given but other people who mail with questions that they want to buy always get an answer. Info about the new color variation is not given out. Just another excuse the ask even higher prices then normally are being asked.
Since 2004 I have Calumma Parsonii’s. Info about breeding is coming in really slowly, rumors about illegal parsons are more often. Selling of eggs of Calumma Parsonni, the selling of all kind of clour varartions, the selling of all different sizes and prices that are unbelievable low…….

Recently I spoke to a Dutch reptiles vet who is very know. She also does works for university, she is a vet for private an companies and she recently visited the us also. She advised me to always test the “shit” and the blood by a specialized reptile vet. They can say with a good probability if an animal is captive bread or wild caught. I would advise everybody who is going to sell them or buy them to takes this test and prove this is a captive bread animal. I would also advise breeders, keepers, or petstores who are selling them to give out information about how it is done. Why not share this information if they are captive bred ………………………………………………………..

For the people who are thinking to buy a parson. Don’t without being for 100% sure that you are buying a Captive bred animal

 

[eisentrauti]

Hi,

if someone need informations for incubating eggs: I have a few reports in German.

Best regards
Benny

 

[bosco]

Hi Benny,
have you informations for Globifer-incubation too?
thanks

 

[eisentrauti]

Hi,

I look up what I have about the incubation of both species and post it the next days - but don't expect too much. I think the breeders in the US have already the same or more information then we here in europe

Greets
Benny

 

[Damaranum]

can you mail them to me as well?

 

[eisentrauti]

Hi,

no problem, I'll post the hole data I have the next days. At the moment I should learn some stuff for the university

 

[nateboston78]

Here is one of my guy.

Here he is, wandering around the enclosure....

 

[Todnedo]

Any updates?

 

[bosco]

Hi,

no problem, I'll post the hole data I have the next days. At the moment I should learn some stuff for the university

eisentrauti, any news?

 

[ruscon]

A few different sources claim 71-72 F as the target temperature and moisture should be on the dry side for most of the incubation period. Globifer is about 9 months and Parsons; apparently much longer. Although Francois LeBerre had some hatch out in 9-10 months, he was not sure why.

 

[bosco]

Thanks ruscon.
My info are from 14 to 20 months for both species, with 2 cool periods.

 

[ruscon]

It seems better hatch results have been without the cool periods. Globifer and Cristifer have been hatched after 9-10 with a steady 71-72 with temporary warm ups of 74. Some feel the cool periods may increase what is already a lengthy incubation period for Parsons; 18-22 months has been the usual report. There is a case where the temp was kept constant and the hatch was 85%. I will try to provide you with this author and the story.