Parsons Chameleon Available

[KShook]

Who go's to the wild?! Not only that..once you bring them into captivity thats a totally different atmosphere..I studied how you need to care for them in captivity. And thats that, I dont need anyone to question my Husbandry, like I dont question yours..now..I'm done wIth these questons and debates..

 

[laurie]

Who go's to the wild?! Not only that..once you bring them into captivity thats a totally different atmosphere..I studied how you need to care for them in captivity. And thats that, I dont need anyone to question my Husbandry, like I dont question yours..now..I'm done wIth these questons and debates..

KShook, I for one am happy that you cancelled the shipment. Perhaps you could have cared for the Parsons but we were just concerned for the animals and the damage to the reputations of all us as chameleon keepers. Sorry if we all offended you, but happy with what you are doing, Thanks.

 

[Trace]

Who go's to the wild?!

I do! I do! Nothing beats field herping and field work for me. I'd sooner see a Parsons in the wild than in someone's living room any old day. I too am glad you decided not to bring these guys in.

I put this thread back on the forums so we could perhaps have a rational and eloquent discussion about the importing and selling of high profile chameleon species. There are many, many new faces on this forum who may not realize the legality or ethics of keeping this species. Any personal attacks and defamatory comments will not be tolerated and I'll close and remove this thread again if it happens.

Remember, parsonii are a status symbol only.

Thanks,
Trace

Yup I'm 'that gal'.

 

[Sang]

as much as i want a parsons. it has become painfully apparant about how difficult they really are to keep, they are not for the begginner cham keeper.

i wouldn't even reccommend them for someone that has been atthis for under 5 years.


this animal has such requirements that even the most skilled keeper will struggle somewhat.


not to mention how hard it is to get these animals, what they have to go through to get them. speaking with Dr. Funk who said that when he worked in florida they would get crates of parsons/panthers and several other variety .. and more then half the shipment would either come in dead/ or so sick it died within days. this was back when you could easly bring in chameleons by the crate full.



parsons is an animal to be admired in its natural habitat, and i would honestly like to see the cease of all imports of this animal except for proffesional breeding projects to increase the knowledge and numbers of this animal.

 

[Chris Anderson]

As far as I know there's no zoologist or anyone with a Degree in this subject so we are all Equels..

First and for most who are you to judge me about my knowledge about the Parsonii/Chameleons...You sound very self centered about this subject.

Kayla - Actually, I am a herpetologist/biologist, I do have a degree in the subject, and my Ph.D. dissertation research is on chameleons. I've worked with this species for the last 6 years, visited them in the wild, spent a considerable amount of time over the last 12 years trying to improve the availability of chameleon information and improve the overall success of the chameleon hobby. As a result, you might say that I definitely have a strong interest in protecting the interests of this and other species in the wild, in captivity and the interests of the chameleon community and breeding efforts as a whole. That does not mean everyone else is not absolutely welcome and encouraged to post their opinions or thoughts by any means (I wish more people put more thought and consideration into some of these issues) but I have put a certain amount of time and effort into some of these issues over the years and have strong opinions on them that I tend to be vocal about.

why shouldnt I be able to distribute them to other chameleon hobbyist such as yourself?!

If in doing so you make the entire chameleon community, the reptile industry and included in those groups of people, those individuals who have put in the time and effort to do these animals justice, look reckless, irresponsible and ignorant while at the same time jeopardizing the future ability of truly dedicated individuals from obtaining this species in the future, you absolutely should not be able to do this. The trade status of imported C. parsonii is hotly debated and this is a subject that has not passed unseen by the United States Fish and Wildlife Service. C. parsonii are a focal species of chameleon and their trade is highly monitored. The legal and moral debates around this species are extremely fluid and could easily change into a situation where we would no longer be able to acquire these animals in the future. Government and non-government agencies are particularly conscious of the reckless and irresponsible importation of various reptiles and often use this to push national and state legislation through that limits or prohibits our hobby. There are a number of such efforts currently being pushed. Any instance where these animals are imported in anything but the most careful of circumstances by experienced individuals who have dedicated the necessary time into establishing these animals is a horrendous disservice to not only the species in captivity but to the entire chameleon community and reptile industry as a whole.

You were right 3 months ago I did post questions about the Parsonii in search of support of the post in the Chameleon Forum Community....I have done very extensive research on the Parsonii Chameleon, and feel very confident that I will be able to care for them properly.

Reading about this species on a couple websites and listening to the small tidbits keepers are willing to share on this species on a public forum is not going to be a substitute the years of experience and knowledge needed to fall back on in order to even come close to succeeding with this species in captivity. The most experienced chameleon keepers in the world have tried tirelessly to establish this species and few have managed to successfully keep this species long term, let alone breed them. These individuals did not only read every source available, they had years and years of experience with countless species to fall back on and still most failed. I would never claim that keeping and breeding them is impossible but you completely underestimate the challenges associated with this species or the value of proper experience before trying to work with them. Adult C. parsonii weigh as much as 900 grams. If we say that the average parsonii weighs 450 grams (an underestimate) that means that between 1986 and 1998, 8 tons of C. parsonii (~19,000 animals) were imported. Do you know how few survived? How few of those reproduced?

What your insinuating is that if you've never had a Specific Species of Chameleon is that you shouldnt obtain one because you dont have the knowledge to care for one...So what your trying to say is that if you've never had a Specific Species you should'nt obtain one.

No, I'm insinuating that certain species demand a degree of knowledge that can only be truly obtained by years of experience that you have not obtained. You are insinuating that by reading a book you can jump into keeping a tiger and you will understand how to read the animal and respond appropriately. Similar to this situation, when you fail to do so, it reflects poorly on the entire community and the animal itself ends up suffering. Not all chameleon species are the same or equal in their care requirements. It takes a lot of time and experience to be able to truly anticipate their needs and care for many of these species. C. parsonii is one of those species that can require a tremendous amount of experience.

whats the sense in being in a Hobby that you cant progress in and be challenged and learn new things...

You absolutely should move forward and progress but this does not include jumping beyond your experience or knowledge at the possible expense of the animals involved and the hobby as a whole. Obtaining a single parsonii for yourself is extremely different from importing a group of them to resell.

if you feel that strongly abut the subject you should be against all Parsonii Owners because other wise...How would you have gotten yours?!

No, quite the contrary. I've worked very hard for many years to acquire the experience and knowledge I have of chameleons to even begin to hope to succeed in breeding parsonii. When I see someone carelessly and irresponsibly jeopardize my ability to acquire more individuals in the future, that is when I am against it. I got my animals from extremely experienced individuals who took a great deal of time and effort to acquire healthy animals, take the best care possible of them and make sure they went to the best people.

Who go's to the wild?! Not only that..once you bring them into captivity thats a totally different atmosphere

I have. I've been to chameleon habitat in five countries, in fact and seen quite a few species in their natural habitat. I know a number of other individuals who have too. You can learn a lot from studying them in the wild. You would not be successful keeping them in captivity without much of the information people have learned from observing them in the wild.

Do to the negative response to my post I've decided not to go further with my shipment of the Parsonii Cham

As angry and upset as you might be, you are doing the right thing. You may not realize it but it is in the best interest of the animals themselves foremost that you not go forward bringing in a group of parsonii to resell until you have gained more experience. With increased pushes for legislation to limit and prohibit our hobby, there is no room for reckless or irresponsible practices, particularly with controversial and focal species like C. parsonii.

Although everything you said was 100% accurate.

Surely you understand then that we have the best interest of the animals and those trying to work with this species in mind then.

Chris

 

[Zen Reptiles]

KShook, you shouldn't have taken Chris' post as insulting, he's right that there are much larger issues. By doing a favor for fellow hobbyists, it would be a far cry from a favor for the chameleons.

We are not all equals here, due to the simple fact that there have been over 5,000 Parson's chameleons imported from the wild, and maybe 500 of them are still alive, and only maybe 10 of them have reproduced.

That's 10 people who know what they're doing, and less than 500 people who kind of know what they're doing, compared to 4,500 other people who had their parsonii die. No offense of course, but that's hard proof that we are not all equal and capable of caring for sensitive chameleons.

I am glad you decided not to go ahead with your order, and I thank you for that.

The only way I would ever keep parsonii is if I had a HUGE greenhouse that I could mimic their environment in.

A good quote to keep in mind with any hobby involving animals is "Instead of having more species, do more with the species you have.''

 

[gregdabender]

Just out of curiosity but whats with the resent amount of parsonii posts on here and on Kingsnake? Just seems like alot more have been offered for sale then usual.

On the subject on keeping a Parsons....Yes I would love to have on. I could buy several but im not ready for the new challenges. Larger cages keeping proper humditiy in that cage and along with that LARGE amounts of water.
Also being able to notice problems would be much harder vs a Panther of Veiled....Someday I will have one but I wont consider myself worthy of having one just by reading a few paragraphs on the innerweb about them.

 

[Todnedo]

No animal should be removed from the wild for the sheer enjoyment of owning one. That's why the pet trade has such a bad name.
When a species is pushed to the brink for the pet trade, restriction should be put in place to ensure their survival both in the wild and in captivity.
A quota should be for a number of animals to be remove to go to breeders or zoologist not to allow them to perish in the hands of pet owners.

 

[KevinA]

I put this thread back on the forums so we could perhaps have a rational and eloquent discussion about the importing and selling of high profile chameleon species. There are many, many new faces on this forum who may not realize the legality or ethics of keeping this species. Any personal attacks and defamatory comments will not be tolerated and I'll close and remove this thread again if it happens.

Remember, parsonii are a status symbol only.

Thanks,
Trace

Yup I'm 'that gal'.

What you all did here isn't totally right!

Trace, If you want to keep this thread for the reasons stated above, you should move it to another section and remove all of the original sales information and just have it a "why you shouldn't advertise parson's thread". There is no reason that this badgering of the orignal poster should have occured.

It should have stopped at Todnedo's post and thats that. This badgering would not have been tolorated if it was a different member. I do agree with some of the post though, but you all(no I'm not from Kentucky) went too far.

These are not social forums. Don't reply to classified threads unless you are sincerely interested and have a relevant question for the seller.

This seems to be a sliding rule

 

[Chris Anderson]

Kevin,

You are correct, I don't think this belongs in the classified section any longer. I think Trace's intentions were good, however. Perhaps this would better be a discussion for the new Round Table forum where it could take the form of a mature, rational discussion on the issues surrounding the importation of controversial species such as C. parsonii? It then could be more helpful in a general sense rather then continue to impact/implicate a member who ultimately has made a good decision.

Chris

 

[Chuck G]

Another Parsonii thread! As long as the gloves stay on they are always good!
I think most of us are glad the person that posted has changed her mind on bringing in a group to sell.Lets not be too hard on her,its been done a few times by people that are experimenting with a new species.
Someone posted that Parson's are a status symbol. I guess for some it might be but I can only speak for myself. I was a cool cat before I ever had one!
I have a pretty good group of Parson's but I don't think I am any better than the guy that has a group of Jacksons.As long as you are doing everything you can and continuing to learn about whatever species you are working with that gets points in my book.Many people talk about how hard they are to take care of but I don't feel that way. I think it is hard to get them acclimated but once they are established they are one of the toughest and hardiest chams I have worked with. They have such mass that I think they can sustain themselves longer than some of the smaller species when they have something wrong with them. They can certainly go long periods of time without eating. I spend plenty of money getting regular checkups,fecals,bloodwork and dental checkups.They are more prone to mouth issues.If you don't have the funds to spend after you get one then this may not be the species for you.Most that come in don't make it past 6 months because they already have issues and never get acclimated.
Always good to hear everyones opinions on these guys!

 

[SeanCJ]

I'll take 6!
Seriously though, importing these special animals really should be left to the experts, meaning those that without question have prior experience with parsoni and can provide appropriate space and time.
Chuck- How many parsoni do you have now? Do you mind sharing some pics of your enclosures and collection?

 

[Brad Ramsey]

We (the moderators) are paying close attention to this thread.
Yes, it is in the classifieds (that will most likely be changed if it is determined that this thread should remain) and the conversation is in violation of the forum rules.
However, it has been decided, at least for now, that the educational benefits of this discussion merit leaving the thread.
Only constructive conversation will be tolerated from this point on and once/if it is determined that this thread will remain, it will reside in an appropriate forum.

-Brad

 

[naich]

just browsing through this thread i have learned soo much...

there are some real geniuses on this forum and im proud to talk with them, i also wish to have a parsons, but that will never happen, i only have been keeping reptiles for a year and have only had my panther for a few months, i rhink the mods are doing the right thing to let it go, unless the person who ordered the chams complaines, but this thread is very interesting, and if it came down to having a parsons in captivity, and knowing it would thrive and live a full unharmed life in my hands, i would still like to see it more on a branch in madagascar away from the deforestation, and away from the greedy hands of the exporters.

i think the madagaascar government should make exporting these chams eliagial to save the life of the few remaining, some animals can be takin right from their burrow and thrive in a houshold environment, like a cat/dog, but some like the parsons are just ment to be left alone to thrive out in the tropical forst on africa....well i dont know much but thats my opinion.

 

[Chameleons Canada]

Sorry guys, but I think some jumped out to conclusions before time. As an importer I can tell you, getting Parson's is not that easy. Just because someone says it will, doesn't mean is true. And some one with the contacts, the money and the knowledge for doing it, is not going to post an ad on the classifieds to "see"who's interested, and is not going to back out just because a bunch of strangers are saying is a bad, bad, bad.

By the way, I know a guy who is cloning T-rex babies out of a fossil found in Europe, Im thinking on getting 5 or 6, anyone interested

 

[GooglezNvincent]

We (the moderators) are paying close attention to this thread.
Yes, it is in the classifieds (that will most likely be changed if it is determined that this thread should remain) and the conversation is in violation of the forum rules.
However, it has been decided, at least for now, that the educational benefits of this discussion merit leaving the thread.
Only constructive conversation will be tolerated from this point on and once/if it is determined that this thread will remain, it will reside in an appropriate forum.

-Brad

YAY! THANK YOU! it is very fun reading all the info al these senior members have!

 

[GooglezNvincent]

just browsing through this thread i have learned soo much...

there are some real geniuses on this forum and im proud to talk with them, i also wish to have a parsons, but that will never happen, i only have been keeping reptiles for a year and have only had my panther for a few months, i rhink the mods are doing the right thing to let it go, unless the person who ordered the chams complaines, but this thread is very interesting, and if it came down to having a parsons in captivity, and knowing it would thrive and live a full unharmed life in my hands, i would still like to see it more on a branch in madagascar away from the deforestation, and away from the greedy hands of the exporters.

i think the madagaascar government should make exporting these chams eliagial to save the life of the few remaining, some animals can be takin right from their burrow and thrive in a houshold environment, like a cat/dog, but some like the parsons are just ment to be left alone to thrive out in the tropical forst on africa....well i dont know much but thats my opinion.

I dont know much, but the only way for these people to get the Parson's is for them to be captive bred, therefore, if we dont get the cham, it wont be on a branch in Madagascar, ill be in a cage in some guys house. And thats only if the exporter is a lagitimate one and treats them right.

 

[GooglezNvincent]

Sorry guys, but I think some jumped out to conclusions before time. As an importer I can tell you, getting Parson's is not that easy. Just because someone says it will, doesn't mean is true. And some one with the contacts, the money and the knowledge for doing it, is not going to post an ad on the classifieds to "see"who's interested, and is not going to back out just because a bunch of strangers are saying is a bad, bad, bad.

By the way, I know a guy who is cloning T-rex babies out of a fossil found in Europe, Im thinking on getting 5 or 6, anyone interested

LOL i think i am going to hold off until you get those raptors in i have been hearing about!!!

 

[Lin Hill]

Lololololol... (wipes eyes).....
whatchya feed those T-rex babies....... cuz we have a fresh batch of kids in!!!! JOKE!!!!!

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

And some one with the contacts, the money and the knowledge for doing it, is not going to post an ad on the classifieds to "see"who's interested, and is not going to back out just because a bunch of strangers are saying is a bad, bad, bad.

Great point!! you are so right!!! no one who has the contacts and the money and the knowledge is going to post on the classifieds to see whos interested, ......esp before they actually have them

https://www.chameleonforums.com/taking-pre-orders-wc-20763/

I may also have 2 PARSONS for sale 1.1 that are going to be sold for 5,000 for the pair, they will be CH and around 14 months old.

obviously no one with the contacts, the money, and the knowledge....

cause you know....its not like you get a bunch of people that waist your time, and back out of sales with this species......and who in their right mind would want to test the market and get a list of interested customers so they can have a shot at selling responsibly by screening customers ahead of time??? you would have to be really nervous about pulling the trigger on such a big deal or something, but i mean hey its not like like its a lot of money or risk...... or even worse morals.... psssssh only someone with morals.....psssssh morals.....

you're right again!!!!, who would let moral opinions of people they respect change their mind when money is concerned?? cha-ching

I know i wouldnt, but thats just me