Parson's or Melleri: Opinions, please!

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Seems like action Jackson beat me to it. I'm no expert on Parsons, I'll have my first one soon, but SOOO many people just say how they're difficult and not for a first time keeper, but then are vague about any care. It's really weird how elitist some people in this hobby, when most reptiles in general arent difficult if you have the space/resources. Aquariums, especially reefs can be much more difficult, and to even go further keeping cephalopods. But even with that I didn't see many people discouraging others from keeping them and withholding info on their care. Instead people were blunt about the costs, time, space, etc and said if you can do the research and provide that, go for it. Just don't understand where this uptight attitude for reptiles comes.

I think a lot of it comes from Parsonii keepers being uptight and not wanting to regress back to the husbandry problems of the 1990's. It maybe as simple as that. We Parsonii keepers are attempting to move on and past then.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[JoeDigiorgio]

I mean look at the numbers, how many US parson's keepers are successfully keeping and breeding parsons in just a few years since they were legally imported again?

Meller's never stopped being imported in large numbers and are a fraction of the price and yet still are incredibly rare in the hobby. Captive breedings happen once every few years at best. Babies are known to suddenly fail similarly to Jacksons.

I just don't really see how you could support the claim that parsons are more difficult or that we know less about them than Meller's when the facts strongly say otherwise. I'm not trying to be argumentative or elitist about my species of choice but I also chose to keep Meller's because so little was known about them and I wanted to participate in changing that.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I mean look at the numbers, how many US parson's keepers are successfully keeping and breeding parsons in just a few years since they were legally imported again?

Meller's never stopped being imported in large numbers and are a fraction of the price and yet still are incredibly rare in the hobby. Captive breedings happen once every few years at best. Babies are known to suddenly fail similarly to Jacksons.

I just don't really see how you could support the claim that parsons are more difficult or that we know less about them than Meller's when the facts strongly say otherwise. I'm not trying to be argumentative or elitist about my species of choice but I also chose to keep Meller's because so little was known about them and I wanted to participate in changing that.

What are you talking about? Tanazania has closed twice in the last 5-6 years I think it was. There have been 2-3 good articles (CIN if I recall correctly and the Vivarium Magazine) about keeping, incubating, and hatching Trioceros melleri.

I think the main thing that separates the two is that Calumma parsonii parsonii has built up an aura with the keepers that keep the species Calumma parsonii parsonii. Trioceros melleri is popular however has not reached the level of popularity that the aura of Calumma parsonii parsonii has attained.

They are both great at the end of the day though. Whatever one you pick you should not be disappointed with.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[JoeDigiorgio]

What are you talking about? Tanazania has closed twice in the last 5-6 years I think it was. There have been 2-3 good articles (CIN if I recall correctly and the Vivarium Magazine) about keeping, incubating, and hatching Trioceros melleri.

I think the main thing that separates the two is that Calumma parsonii parsonii has built up an aura with the keepers that keep the species Calumma parsonii parsonii. Trioceros melleri is popular however has not reached the level of the aura of Calumma parsonii parsonii.

There both great at the end of the day though. Whatever one you pick you should not be disappointed with.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

Melleri never stopped coming in. They've been consistently exported through Mozambique the entire time Tanzania has been closed. Yet still how many people do you know keeping them? I'm aware of one importer that got no less than about 90 of them this year alone and that's just the shipments I'm aware of. Where are they all? Mostly dead because nobody can keep them alive past a few months.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Melleri never stopped coming in. They've been consistently exported through Mozambique the entire time Tanzania has been closed. Yet still how many people do you know keeping them? I'm aware of one importer that got no less than about 90 of them this year alone and that's just the shipments I'm aware of. Where are they all? Mostly dead because nobody can keep them alive past a few months.

There has been some shipments that come in from Mozambique. The Mozambique shipments have been infrequent at best while Tanzania has been closed a second time.

As I was stating earlier. There is more interest with Calumma parsonii parsonii especially now that the new quotas have been made. Keepers attention has shifted away from Trioceros melleri. Especially keepers that would normally be keeping Triceros melleri if Calumma parsonii spp. did not have any Quotas.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[JoeDigiorgio]

Tanzania reopens very soon. I hope I'm wrong and we see a large number of melleri keepers and breeding next year. I don't think so though.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Tanzania reopens very soon. I hope I'm wrong and we see a large number of melleri keepers and breeding next year. I don't think so though.

Conservative/limited export quotas is the way to go! Even if it means higher export prices for healthier Trioceros melleri.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[jajeanpierre]

I mean look at the numbers, how many US parson's keepers are successfully keeping and breeding parsons in just a few years since they were legally imported again?

Meller's never stopped being imported in large numbers and are a fraction of the price and yet still are incredibly rare in the hobby. Captive breedings happen once every few years at best. Babies are known to suddenly fail similarly to Jacksons.

I just don't really see how you could support the claim that parsons are more difficult or that we know less about them than Meller's when the facts strongly say otherwise. I'm not trying to be argumentative or elitist about my species of choice but I also chose to keep Meller's because so little was known about them and I wanted to participate in changing that.

One of the reasons Melleri are more difficult than Parsons is the condition they arrive in at import. I've gone through many new imports of Melleri looking for @jpowell86. The biggest problem is that a mellers is only worth $20 while a parsons is worth a few hundred. The collectors and exporter take much better care of the Parsons all the way through the process from collection to holding to shipping. The mellers do not receive that kind of care. I've seen many shipments the day after unboxing and I am sickened by what I see. I do believe mellers have a much harder time with import than other chameleons. I see the whole shipment and virtually all the mellers look like they are 3/4 dead compared to the other species that, while they look rough, they don't look deflated and dessicated. I cry after going through any melleri shipment.

I am fascinated by the melleri. Maybe one day when I cut down in numbers, I will find the room for one. They strike me as very intelligent.

I think there seems to be a difference between the temperaments of the Tanzanian melleri (which I do not believe are exported at the moment) and the Mozambique melleri. Those from Mozambique have a lot of spunk

 

[jajeanpierre]

Melleri never stopped coming in. They've been consistently exported through Mozambique the entire time Tanzania has been closed. Yet still how many people do you know keeping them? I'm aware of one importer that got no less than about 90 of them this year alone and that's just the shipments I'm aware of. Where are they all? Mostly dead because nobody can keep them alive past a few months.

Most imports are dead within a few months of import. The cheaper the animal, the more likely they are to fall into the wrong hands. Melleri are dirt cheap. Novice people who shouldn't have such a difficult animal to get through import end up with them. I find quads and graciliors incredibly hardy and easy to care for. I have most of my wild caughts, even three imported December 2014. I think most of the rest of those shipments are dead.

 

[Carlton]

Keep in mind too, there are few commercially produced cages that an adult parsons can live comfortably in and to my knowledge there is not a commercially produced cage large enough for melleri.

I tried caging my first melleri for about a month (dimensions were 6'x7'x8'). Gave that up when she started mutilating herself on the wire. For ever after that she and the others always free ranged in a bedroom. They used pretty much all of it. But I suppose any cham loose in that area would love it and use it.

 

[Carlton]

Most imports are dead within a few months of import. The cheaper the animal, the more likely they are to fall into the wrong hands. Melleri are dirt cheap. Novice people who shouldn't have such a difficult animal to get through import end up with them. I find quads and graciliors incredibly hardy and easy to care for. I have most of my wild caughts, even three imported December 2014. I think most of the rest of those shipments are dead.

Yes, I also think this is a lot of it. Melleri unfortunately are a "cheap" commodity. Parsonii have the reputation for being valuable. Some certainly don't get great care, but exporters/importers have more invested in them and can get more for them if they are healthy. Also, customers willing to pay for them tend to be more knowledgeable and won't accept poor condition. Another thing to consider...please correct me if I'm out of date, but due to Madagascar's deforestation issues, trade in wc Parsonii is probably less "sustainable". I'm less willing to take animals from the wild in those circumstances.

Anyway, in the end both species deserve and usually require solid experience, space, and attention to succeed with. From all I've read and heard about Parsonii they seem to vary a bit less in temperament extremes. Again, I've kept melleri that I would describe as "friendly" and curious, and others I had to leave completely alone. Either species can break your heart when something goes wrong. If you take on wc animals things can certainly go very wrong.

 

[Nursemaia]

He doesn't try to push his face through the slats of a bird cage? I could never successfully keep a chameleon in a bird cage and I know at least 2 other people who also failed miserably with bird cages.

I'm jealous because cheap used bird cages are pretty common around me and I always pass them up even though I am tempted to use them for quarantines.




Particularly when talking about wild melleri, which are going to be even more common very soon, nothing short of something very large and custom will work.

He does not. He roams it but doesn't try to get out. Horn is intact and he seems quite content in there. Right now he's outside in an old 2 story ferret cage that had removable floors so it's one big setup now. He's never grumpy with me when he's inside but outside he gapes, hisses, and waves his occipital flaps when I get him out for his weekly weight. Last Sunday he was 174 gm. I'm assuming he likes it outside and the outside cage is smaller than the inside parrot cage I have him in. Now my panther will squeeze through the bars of the cage he's in sometimes to climb the curtains but Mel doesn't seem to care. Neither do my veileds. I'm looking for a used parrot tree to make a free range too.

 

[JoeDigiorgio]

One of the reasons Melleri are more difficult than Parsons is the condition they arrive in at import. I've gone through many new imports of Melleri looking for @jpowell86. The biggest problem is that a mellers is only worth $20 while a parsons is worth a few hundred. The collectors and exporter take much better care of the Parsons all the way through the process from collection to holding to shipping. The mellers do not receive that kind of care. I've seen many shipments the day after unboxing and I am sickened by what I see. I do believe mellers have a much harder time with import than other chameleons. I see the whole shipment and virtually all the mellers look like they are 3/4 dead compared to the other species that, while they look rough, they don't look deflated and dessicated. I cry after going through any melleri shipment.

I am fascinated by the melleri. Maybe one day when I cut down in numbers, I will find the room for one. They strike me as very intelligent.

I think there seems to be a difference between the temperaments of the Tanzanian melleri (which I do not believe are exported at the moment) and the Mozambique melleri. Those from Mozambique have a lot of spunk

Where has @jpowell86 been anyway?!

 

[JoeDigiorgio]

He does not. He roams it but doesn't try to get out. Horn is intact and he seems quite content in there. Right now he's outside in an old 2 story ferret cage that had removable floors so it's one big setup now. He's never grumpy with me when he's inside but outside he gapes, hisses, and waves his occipital flaps when I get him out for his weekly weight. Last Sunday he was 174 gm. I'm assuming he likes it outside and the outside cage is smaller than the inside parrot cage I have him in. Now my panther will squeeze through the bars of the cage he's in sometimes to climb the curtains but Mel doesn't seem to care. Neither do my veileds. I'm looking for a used parrot tree to make a free range too.

I've had my eye out for one of those too! Nobody seems to be getting rid of one locally. I have big ideas for when I find one though lol

 

[Twitchet]

We miss @jpowell86

 

[jamest0o0]

@Motherlode Chameleon btw I didn't mean to attack you, I just meant I constantly see posts saying why they aren't for beginners. But then don't see much info offered by people. I've only kept chameleons for about a year myself(I helped with a veiled years and years ago). I have kept tons of other reptiles, aquariums, etc. I get what people intend by withholding husbandry practices to deter the inexperienced, but I feel this doesn't work. The people that read up on care to begin with aren't the ones to worry about, it's the people that walk into a pet store see a veiled, think it's cool and buy it. I'd like to see chams stay expensive to limit this from happening. The person that is worried about how to properly supplement a Parsons is most likely going to give their all for husbandry, and IMO deserves a chance at the animal if they have the resources.

On a side note, WC animals really bother me. Quotas on living things just feels so slimey and wrong, but I understand the necessity for it if we want to have CB. I just don't think a WC should be purchased unless there's an intention to breed.

 

[Mawtyplant]

I agree with Joe .. Personally I think that if you get the impression that there is more cb melleri it is because the number of CH is higher (because of the importation of pregnant female ) but real CB .. I have not seen tons and it seems virtually impossible to find .. contrary to the parsons. Mellers are difficult to keep because of their import condition .. but also in the long term (after 1 year) deficiencies seem to settle and the health problems begin. The challenge is twofold. Also, just like Joe, I wonder .. but where are they importing the latest years ?! here in canada we have not the mozambique to fill the times of tanzania, presently the number of Melleri still alive or in health is rather reduced .. I never had a Parson on the other hand therefore impossible for me to judge which is more difficult to keep. Has anyone ever had the two here?

 

[Carlton]

I've had my eye out for one of those too! Nobody seems to be getting rid of one locally. I have big ideas for when I find one though lol

Another option for free ranges are fake trees sold in craft stores. You can connect 2 or 3 with tree branches. Check moving/garage sales and second-hand stores.

 

[JoeDigiorgio]

Another option for free ranges are fake trees sold in craft stores. You can connect 2 or 3 with tree branches. Check moving/garage sales and second-hand stores.

Nooooo I can't do that! My whole free range is full of real plants and trees. It would twist a knife in my side to see a fake tree in the middle of the real ones. Call it OCD or I don't know what but it's not an option for me lol

 

[kinyonga]

@Mawtyplant said "Has anyone ever had the two here?"... If you mean in Canada...I have had both Parsons and Mellers....as I said earlier in this thread...back in the "early days".