Please help colin :-(

[kinyonga]

The best option and the fastest way to get the calcium issues under control would be to see a vet. The vet could give him calcium injections and when the blood calcium levels are high enough the chameleon could be given an injection of calcitonin to draw the calcium back into the bones. Even if the vets are not familiar with chameleons they could phone a vet who is to get directions.

I am not a vet and the following is only meant to help until you can see a vet. Some of it is meant to help while the chameleon is recovering too.

In the meantime, you could give is some liquid calcium sandoz or calcium gluconate. You can buy it at a pharmacy usually. If you can get it some direct sun that would help too. If its cool outside you could put a basking light over the chameleon but place it in direct sunlight at the same time...but I still wouldn't put it outside if its below 70F since its not well to begin with.

Baby food chicken has preformed vitamin A in it and that could fight against the D3 and thus keep the chameleon from recovering IMHO.

If it will take crickets on its own, that is what I would give it...making sure that they are well gutloaded. I would stay away from the mealworms because they are harder to digest and likely the chameleon's bowels won't be working really well due to the lack of food lately and the calcium issues.

Once the health issues have been addressed, you need to (of course) keep the chameleon properly to prevent it from happening again.

Exposure to UVB will allow the chameleon to produce D3 which will allow it to use the calcium.

Since many feeder insects have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorous, dusting the insects (before you give them to the chameleon) with a phos.-free calcium powder at most feedings will help to make up for this.

I dust with vitamins with a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A twice a month since beta carotene won't build up in the system. Its not know if all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene but doing it this way puts you in control of whether to give it prEformed vitamin A or not. Excess prEformed vitamin A can prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD....so it should be given carefully.

I also dust with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder twice a month. D3 from supplements can build up in the system though, so don't overdo it.

Phos., calcium, D3 and vitamin A are important players in bone health and in other systems in the body and need to be in balance.

Gutloading/feeding the insects a nutritious diet and providing appropriate temperatures is also important.

Here are some sites that might help...
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://web.archive.org/web/20060502...rnals.com/vet/index.php?show=5.Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20060421.../index.php?show=6.Vitamin.D3.and.Calcium.html
http://adcham.com/html/veterinary/mbd-fractures-kramer.html
http://chameleonnews.com/?page=article&id=102

If the chameleon is brought back into good health, it might still live a long life...as long as the damage hasn't been too bad.

Good luck!

 

[jojackson]

I dont share others optimism Im afraid. This lizard is in misery, having absolute zero quality of life. If your not where you can get qualified diagnosis and treatment by a vet,
it's cruel to allow it to suffer 'for a few weeks' more (its suffered enough) while you ditz about following internet advice of every over optimistic person and well meaning newby.
Save yourself and the lizard further misery and have it humanely destroyed quickly.

It's incomprehensible to me that those who wax lyrical about how much they love and appreciate animals, are often those who
allow them to suffer, sometimes in extreme and for long periods because they cant do the right thing.
Love takes strength!

Your kind hearted intention is obvious and commendable, If you dont want it to suffer you must not lack the courage of your conviction. Finish what you started.
Best wishes

 

[Pumpkinface]

Ouch, jo, harse words about this whole situation. however 6 weeks ago i had to make that choice with a week old baby veiled that couldn't have made it. It stopped eating and i held out hope until the seizures started and obvious loss of strength due to pain. i chose to end it and put him in the freezer. its a quick way to put down a rep that cant hibernate. call me a monster, but, i did what i had to. I AM NOT SAYING kill your pet, I'm just agreeing with jo and asking you to know when to throw in the towel if nothing helps.

 

[Lovereps]

Wow, that was harsh Jo Jackson

If the animal is not in pain, then why hurry to euthanize?
The inability to lift up the body or to move the back legs are both symptoms of MBD, not fractures---though he must be handled carefully, as fractures can easily occur.
As anyone with osteoporosis could tell you, there's no pain in their weak bones unless the bones are fractured.
With impaired nerve transmission as a result of MBD, he might not even be able to feel any pain there even if there was a fracture.
Chameleons lives naturally consist of eating/drinking, avoiding being eaten, basking, sleeping and looking for food and water.
The only missing element, at present, is normal mobility.
Though unpleasant, I'd hardly call that suffering.
In the absence of pain, I fail to see any cruelty in providing food, water, treatment and shelter to an ill chameleon with possibly temporarily impaired mobility.
That Colin is now eating can be nothing other than a good sign.

If the MBD is beyond the point of possible recovery-- Colin will simply expire soon.
His mobility may return--perhaps sooner than one could predict--with the extra care that Nikki is willing to provide.
Call it optimism or label me a well-meaning newbie if you like, but it seems worthwhile to make the attempt to heal him.
Both Jannb and Kinyonga have been members for a long while and have expressed hopes for Colin's recovery.
After searching online, I located a vet, recommended by a reptile owner, on a neighboring Channel Island. I emailed Nikki Harrison to inform him/her, in case that vet can be visited.

I have seen the following suggested, in addition to a calcium injection from a vet:

1) Exposure to unfiltered sunlight--but not in a glass enclosure outdoors, as glass filters-out UV light and turns it into heat--but with access to shade and, of course, only with appropriate outdoor temps.

2) Feed him Phoenix worms. They are reported to have the ideal calcium to phosphorus ratio and they wiggle alot, which tends to stimulate appetite.

3) Use a 10.0 Reptisun UVB long, narrow bulb--not the compact fluorescent bulbs--for additional UV .

I hope that Nikki's care gets Colin to mend.

 

[philanddeb818]

I dont share others optimism Im afraid. This lizard is in misery, having absolute zero quality of life. If your not where you can get qualified diagnosis and treatment by a vet,
it's cruel to allow it to suffer 'for a few weeks' more (its suffered enough) while you ditz about following internet advice of every over optimistic person and well meaning newby.
Save yourself and the lizard further misery and have it humanely destroyed quickly.

It's incomprehensible to me that those who wax lyrical about how much they love and appreciate animals, are often those who
allow them to suffer, sometimes in extreme and for long periods because they cant do the right thing.
Love takes strength!

Your kind hearted intention is obvious and commendable, If you dont want it to suffer you must not lack the courage of your conviction. Finish what you started.
Best wishes

I see your point Jo, and it's a good one, but, if it were me suffering, I'd want my family to give me every chance at life.

 

[jojackson]

If the animal is not in pain, then why hurry to euthanize?

You dont know that its not, anymore than I do, that it is.

As anyone with osteoporosis could tell you, there's no pain in their weak bones unless the bones are fractured.

Its not osteoporosis, and in anycase, what a simplistic veiw, pain is not the only form of suffering.

Both Jannb and Kinyonga have been members for a long while and have expressed hopes for Colin's recovery.

And I respect Their knowledge and Input as much as anyone, I simply Disagree. Everyone posting here has expressed hope for its recovery, Thats lovely, we all love chams. But im a realist and I beleive wishful thinking leads to false hope/expectations, and is cruel too, to the unsuspecting kind rescuer. In many cases, recovery is possible with correct care and dedication, I just dont think this is one of them.

If the MBD is beyond the point of possible recovery-- Colin will simply expire soon.

Colin would have 'expired' already in natural conditions, probably some time ago. Who knows how long its current condition has been going on before its current owner got it.
Waiting to see if Colin will 'simply expire' is far more harsh than my recommendation, and much crueler.

I see your point Jo, and it's a good one, but, if it were me suffering, I'd want my family to give me every chance at life.

Im sure you think so now, while your happy and in good health and spirit, but how about if you were paralised from the neck down?
Laying there totally helpless day after miserable day, totally reliant on others to do everything from feed and wash you, to wiping your backside?
I think you might change your mind. A freind of ours did, 23 yo girl full of life, became a quadrapalegic after an accident, Had your attitude for about 18 months or so, till reality sunk in and then she wished for death desperately, despite rallying freinds.
Since A legal battle for humane euthanasia is unprecedented here, it was expected to take many years, so Tanya made the only avail legal choice and refused treatment.
A short court battle ensued regarding force feeding, because she refused food, this was won, and Tanya passed away within several weeks, without any dignity, but in peace at last.

Somebody I know had a very old Dog, it gradully lost the use of its legs, all of them, and could do nothing but lay there. Its well meaning owner 'just couldnt' euthanise it, instead it went on suffering like this (pain or not) for a long time till it expired, with him carrying it, in and out everyday. This is cruelty!
Tell me this animal didnt suffer greatly, what a miserable existance for a dog, and in Colins case, what a miserable existance for an arborial lizard.

Colin Is suffering and his likelyhood of recovery to normalcy is lower with each passing day. In this particular instance, I beleive Humane Euthanasia is the right option.
I have treated/cared for, rehabilitated more than a few reptiles and other animals over the years that were pretty poorly, and others have been euthanised.
Its never (emotionally) an easy choice to make, but thats life.
In this case, I think its the best option realistically.
Agree or disagree, its not our descision.

 

[Nikki Harrison]

Thanks for all the responses, although I have become very attached to Colin in this past week I also realise that euthanasia may be the best option at some point, but while he is making noticable progress each day I am not willing to consider that yet. Each day he is eating and drinking more, he is moving around more (ok not normally and still has obvious mobility issues) but he can make it round the viv. People in a wheel chair dont want to die..... He is far far from a vegetable..... if he was, yes there would be no other option. We are taking him to our local aquarium every 3 days to see someone, ok he aint a vet, but in my eyes (and a lot of other peoples) he is the reptile man.
It helps him seeing Colin so we know we are not imagining his progress a third party can often see things you can't.

I really am doing all I can and ok some of you may not agree with it, but while his is making improvement I am not willing to stop.

Thanks again everyone

Nikki x

 

[Nikki Harrison]

I just spoke to a vet in Jersey and he told me that the fact that he is eating shows that he is not in pain. The vet said that if he was in pain he wouldnt eat and wouldnt be showing signs of improvemet.

So am going to give it a bit longer am not giving up just yet, Thanks for all the messages though.

Nikki x

 

[Julirs]

I just spoke to a vet in Jersey and he told me that the fact that he is eating shows that he is not in pain. The vet said that if he was in pain he wouldnt eat and wouldnt be showing signs of improvemet.

So am going to give it a bit longer am not giving up just yet, Thanks for all the messages though.

Nikki x

Although everyone is entitled to their opinion, we are not in Nikki's shoes and are not seeing the chameleon. She is working with her Vet, and I am a firm beleiver in "knowing when it is time" to give up. I am going through the same thing with my MBD rescued Panther. He has done well for 6 months but is now going downhill.
Best wishes Nikki, sometimes it works out, sometimes it does not, but at least we do what we can which makes the decisions easier.

I also wanted to add that after looking at the pictures, if it were me, I would try to see what happens after a few weeks of feeding and watering. If he was not fed for several weeks that might be the problem with him just laying there and not the MBD. I have 2 cases that are far worse with more leg deformitites that climb the branches just fine. I would certainly get calcium injections to boost the process.

 

[serenitystarlite]

Im sure you think so now, while your happy and in good health and spirit, but how about if you were paralised from the neck down?
Laying there totally helpless day after miserable day, totally reliant on others to do everything from feed and wash you, to wiping your backside?
I think you might change your mind. A freind of ours did, 23 yo girl full of life, became a quadrapalegic after an accident, Had your attitude for about 18 months or so, till reality sunk in and then she wished for death desperately, despite rallying freinds.
Since A legal battle for humane euthanasia is unprecedented here, it was expected to take many years, so Tanya made the only avail legal choice and refused treatment.
A short court battle ensued regarding force feeding, because she refused food, this was won, and Tanya passed away within several weeks, without any dignity, but in peace at last.

Somebody I know had a very old Dog, it gradully lost the use of its legs, all of them, and could do nothing but lay there. Its well meaning owner 'just couldnt' euthanise it, instead it went on suffering like this (pain or not) for a long time till it expired, with him carrying it, in and out everyday. This is cruelty!
Tell me this animal didnt suffer greatly, what a miserable existance for a dog, and in Colins case, what a miserable existance for an arborial lizard.

Colin Is suffering and his likelyhood of recovery to normalcy is lower with each passing day. In this particular instance, I beleive Humane Euthanasia is the right option.
I have treated/cared for, rehabilitated more than a few reptiles and other animals over the years that were pretty poorly, and others have been euthanised.
Its never (emotionally) an easy choice to make, but thats life.
In this case, I think its the best option realistically.
Agree or disagree, its not our descision.

I'm not really agreeing or disagreeing with your point about euthanasia, but what you said about your friend made me sad. I have a disability. I work in the disability community and have many friends with disabilities, quads included, and most of us don't want to kill ourselves because of our disability. When someone acquires a disability, sure there is always depression while the person adjusts. An acquired disability is very, very hard to deal with but it doesn't mean that everyone just wants to die. Initially maybe, but most adjust and adapt. My disability started when I was 16. I am now 30 and I still struggle with it. Sometimes I get really frustrated and depressed but I get over it. I am terribly sorry for your loss, but I just wanted to mention that what happened to your friend is not the norm. Most often, the biggest thing that upsets people with disabilities is not the disability itself, but the way we are treated and perceived by others.

That being said however, a chameleon is not a person. There are no wheelchairs, crutches, or other assistive technology available for a chameleon. He can't tell you if he's in pain or sad. When our dog got old and sick and stopped eating and couldn't walk anymore due to severe arthritis, we put him down. He was 16. It was very sad but it needed to happen, he was miserable. If Colin isn't showing any signs of improvement, then that may be his best option. If he's improving, then he may pull through and recover. Good luck!

 

[jojackson]

Serenity,
Thankyou for the Insight, Wishing you well with your disability whatever it be.
You show incredible maturity and courage, your family and freinds must be very proud.
I didnt intend to make direct comparison between animals and people, just answering phil/deb because their post brought fresh memories of Tanya to the surface.

Regards the chameleon Colin, Despite my particular call in this case, I want Nikki and others on the thread to know that I'd be thrilled to be proven wrong about it. Some creatures show a remarkable strength in recovery if given the chance, many a reptile
I considered Euthing but had reservations about, has surprised me by responding miraculously well to further treatment.
I hope for Nikki's sake, colin is one of them. Nice to hear its showing some promise, but beware these apparent 'perk ups' (for want of better expression) can be temporary, sometimes the animal appears to do well, only to go downhill suddenly, This can heartbreaking, so please dont get too confident until your sure its out of the woods.

Best wishes Nikki, goodluck colin.

 

[philanddeb818]

Jo,
Thanks as always for your thoughts. I just want to share a thought with you and tell you that my prayers are with Tanya.

In 1977 an 18 year old was in a car accident. She woke briefly in emergency and quickly passed out. She woke a couple days later to find she had multiple fractures, teeth broken, and had her limbs strung up to the ceiling with all kinds of contraptions in a hospital room. After that, she had a difficult time remembering what her address and phone number was... but in time she recovered. Months later, while in a wheel chair, she was told in spite of the fact that she was young and a dance student, she would never walk un-aided.

With all the heartache you've had with Tanya's death, I totally understand your desire to soften the blow with our little Cham, Colin, in this scenario. I believe this Cham owner is on to something great here. I believe if Colin has a chance, it is due to this lovely person will do everything possible to make sure he walks again.

The girl in the story was me. I'm no marathon runner, but I do a damn good short dash! I repspect you Jo. Love your posts. Love that you're outspoken and appreaciate your message. Blessings brother. Your heart is huge.

 

[jojackson]

Deb,
Thanks so much for your kind thoughts, Nobody ever said such kind things to me before,
for once Im kind of lost for words!


Your story is inspiring, along with your positive outlook on life. Such positive attitude in the face of devasting circumstances, especially so young, takes amazing strength of will and determinimation, and a great love of life, which must describe you well.
I hope Phil knows what a lucky man he is!

Lets hope poor little Colin cham has a strong will for survival too.
Every life, be men or beasts has value in its uniqueness and deserves every moment.
I feel a sense of loss when any life expires, and equally, a sense of small joy to hear of
success/recovery.
In terms of us, each moment we have, though we may need reminding, is ever so precious and once passed, forever lost. Sometimes it takes a death to appreciate our own life and all that we take granted. (close freind of 13 yrs passed away yesterday)
With the memory of my two first dogs in mind (who lived to 17 & 21 ) Im reminded the above applies to the short span we have with our pets aswell.

I hope Nikki understands that despite my thoughts, I do care, empathise and understand.
I wish them both both well. Reading back, my first post came across terrifically cold and blunt and heartless, even I'm surprised,
no idea where my mind was at the time, no excuses, I apologise, sorry Nikki
cheers

P.S. Im currently rehabilitating an emaciated green python (poor feeder) with reasonable success so far.
My daughter has humorously named him 'Oscar', after Oscar the grouch (sesame street muppet), aptly too, ungrateful little #@% is pretty snappy right now
So far so good, he's been rehydrated, treated for parasites and eaten his first vitamin fortified meal 2 nights ago. Whoohoo!

 

[philanddeb818]

Jo,
Nothing but tears. Thank you my friend. Here's to Colin and Oscar for a new lease on life! Blessings to you babe! I'm here if you ever need a friend. And because you are so honest in your posts I expect you will right me when I need it and wrong me when I'm off base. My humble opinion...this is what friendship truly is. Thank you for being my friend. (tears)
Deb

 

[jojackson]

"Don't walk behind me. I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my friend." - - Alfred Lord Tennyson

“A true friend is someone who thinks that you are a good egg even though he knows that you are slightly cracked” ~ Bernard Meltzer

“We cannot tell the exact moment a friendship is formed; as in filling a vessel drop by drop, there is at last a drop which makes it run over; so in a series of kindnesses, there is at last one that makes the heart run over.” ~ unknown

“You meet people who forget you. You forget people you meet. But sometimes you meet those people you can't forget. Those are your 'friends.'” ~ unknown



P.S Nikki if you are following the thread still, please update us about Colins condition. Fingers x'd for you!