Please Help, Fischer's Chameleon Enlosure/Diet Questions!

[nicholas]

Steve,

Additionally, I completely disagree with the general assertion that substrate should be avoided. Whenever anyone suggests that substrate should be avoided for true chameleons, I always ask why then they suggest substrate for pygmy chameleons. True chameleons are no more likely to ingest substrate and become impacted than pygmy chameleons (in fact I might argue they are less so), yet the standard for keeping pygmy chameleons is to use substrate while the standard for true chameleons is to not. Obviously, however, if you have any animal that is actively ingesting substrate, it should be removed from said substrate. Further, you should choose your substrate wisely to avoid for fertilizers, additives (perlite, etc.) and large pieces. I use a fine organic soil.

Chris

Chris, when I say "no substrate" I say that because imo it just causes problems, first it gives feeders a place to hide, second if kept to wet (like in a terrarium without drainage it can cause health issues, and it is also just one more thing that you have to keep an eye on and tend to, and when you have quite a few chams it just seems to work better to have none in there and on a rare occasion I did see a necropsy preformed on a cham that had a fatal impaction that was due to a substrate very similar coconut fiber, but i am of course not saying that this happens all the time. I have used substrate only a handful of times and only used any type soil once, I usually use a live moss on the bottom of the enclosure to raise ambient humidity, this goes for my pygmies that I have kept also.

 

[Chris Anderson]

Nicholas,

A lot of the issues with substrates, real and perceived, are actually an enclosure design and maintenance issue rather than an issue with the use of substrates in general.

I definitely agree that using coconut fiber, moss, other coarse substrates or sand is a mistake. Organic soils without chunks and additives, on the other hand, I think are completely different. Impaction is easy with coarse substrates and artificial sand with coarse edges. Organic soil without additives and chunks is much less problematic and is what I am referring to when I talk about substrate.

As for moisture of the soil, any time a substrate is used, drainage should be included. All my enclosures have a layer of hydroton balls for drainage. Additionally, since glass terrariums hold humidity better, the chameleons in them require significantly less watering and wet soil should not be a problem. Species such as T. hoehnelii and T. montium, which are considered species with high water requirements, can be kept in glass terrariums with only a couple minutes of misting per day. The soil does not get or stay overly wet when chameleons are properly watered in these enclosures and are thus not a health issue.

I have also found fully planted enclosures to require much less maintenance than bear bottomed screen enclosures. These enclosure require regular cleaning to maintain their cleanliness. Fully planted enclosures equipped with natural cleanup crews (springtails, isopods, etc.), on the other hand, are very low maintenance.

Finally, I've found that the substrate in fully planted enclosures settles fairly quickly. Once this occurs, there is little place for feeders to hide as a result of the substrate.

Chris

 

[lisa h]

No one could put this better than Chris, so follow his advice! Be sure that your exoterra is an appropriate size (with chameleons height is of great importance). Also, you may want to get rid of styrofoam background they provide, as it takes up a lot of room, and crickets tend to crawl in the spaces and stay there. Some people use actual cork on the back. I use nothing unless there are cords along the wall and the chameleons are trying to get at them. Then I put paper on the *outside* of the glass, which seems to do the trick.

 

[stevenelvin]

I just took a trip to my local PJ's pets to pick up some supplies and i decided to snap a couple pics while I was there. He is a very bright green & a yellowy brown with spots of a pinkish colour. The woman at the store told me that his colour would come out a little bit once he was fully grown. He is also shedding at the moment incase you were wondering.

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/1900/050bm.jpg
(I like this one the best)
http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/5462/051es.jpg
http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/6097/051jw.jpg

Enjoy & Tell me what you think!
They also had a fully grown tortoise that I wish I took a few pics of.

 

[stevenelvin]

He Looks much better in person by the way

 

[stevenelvin]

Thank you so much for your help Chris! I really do appreciate the assistance of a veterened herper and Ph.D candidate such as yourself! And I'm sure my new cham will appreciate it even more!

Im going to read through those articles and get rid of/replace that coconut fiber substrate. Again, thank you!

 

[kinyonga]

Nicholas asked..."What do you keep your night and day temps at?"...the night temperatures don't go any lower than the high 60's at night. The basking area is around 80F with the rest of the cage being slightly cooler.

My cages have not been heavily planted...but have some cover.

Stevenelvin...if you've done well with the beardie, you should be able to do well with the chameleon IMHO. (I've kept both.)

Chris said..."Whenever anyone suggests that substrate should be avoided for true chameleons, I always ask why then they suggest substrate for pygmy chameleons"...IMHO pygmy chameleons are used to being close to the ground/substrate so may be less likely to have a problem with it. I have never heard of a pygmy chameleon being impacted BTW. However I have heard of many arboreal ones being impacted from the substrate. An arboreal chameleon, IMHO, in the wild wouldn't likely be shooting its tongue out at an insect sitting on soil/substrate where it could get some of the soil/substrate attached to its tongue and draw it into its mouth since they don't spend a lot of time on the ground.

I agree that not all substrates will cause and impaction when ingested...but how are we to know which ones will until it happens? IMHO its better to avoid the possibility than to risk it when it has been reported frequently and there is almost nothing that can be done to resolve the impaction once it happens.

From the Toronto Zoo...
"Gastrointestinal impaction, suffo and providing a medium for pathogens are all risks associated with the addition of substrate to reptile exhibits."...
http://www.torontozoo.com/meet_animals/enrichment/reptile_enrichment.htm

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[Cainschams]

Steve,

Just so you are aware, the chameleon you are looking at is actually not a true Fischer's Chameleon. The "Fischer's Chameleons" that are sold are actually different species that were once considered subspecies of the true Fischer's Chameleon (Kinyongia fischeri). These species are actually their own distinct species but inertia has resulting in them still being called Fischer's Chameleons. You most likely are looking at Kinyongia multituberculata, the West Usambara Two-horned Chameleon, but if you get pics, we can definitely ID it for you. This information is of little benefit to you as far as getting additional information goes, but its nice to know what you actually have.

As for the comments about screen enclosures vs glass enclosures, I tend to disagree with many people on this and I am a proponent for using glass terrariums for many species, including K. multituberculata. In my opinion, as long as the keeper considers the humidity retention in a glass enclosure and provides appropriate ventilation (either a glass terrarium with built in ventilation or fans, etc.), these enclosures can be excellent enclosures, particularly for montane species. You can read generally about using these enclosures here: http://www.chameleonnews.com/10JulAndersonGlass.html

Also, I've never agreed with a lot of the notion that the appropriateness of glass enclosures has to do with location. It is common for people to say that these enclosures are best in the northern latitudes because of heat retention but typically this theory fails to account for two things. First, many southern areas have a preponderance of homes with air conditioning resulting in air inside that is cooler and drier than outside, both of which are perfect scenarios for using glass terrariums. Secondly, in most northern areas, temperatures and humidity during the summer are quite high and most houses lack air conditioning, resulting in air and humidity inside that is often higher than homes in the south, yet the idea that the northern, colder climates are better for glass still persists. With the appropriate care, glass enclosures are equally appropriate in the north or south.

Additionally, I completely disagree with the general assertion that substrate should be avoided. Whenever anyone suggests that substrate should be avoided for true chameleons, I always ask why then they suggest substrate for pygmy chameleons. True chameleons are no more likely to ingest substrate and become impacted than pygmy chameleons (in fact I might argue they are less so), yet the standard for keeping pygmy chameleons is to use substrate while the standard for true chameleons is to not. Obviously, however, if you have any animal that is actively ingesting substrate, it should be removed from said substrate. Further, you should choose your substrate wisely to avoid for fertilizers, additives (perlite, etc.) and large pieces. I use a fine organic soil.

Here are a couple other articles that may be of use to you:
http://www.chameleonnews.com/05DecKroo.html
http://www.chameleonnews.com/05DecAndersonIntro.html
http://www.chameleonnews.com/04AugBeveridge.html
http://www.chameleonnews.com/10JulWeldon.html

Chris

This is a great thread and definitely shows the many perspectives on successful chameleon keeping.

Chris, I have wondered for a while how much time your chams get outside a year? Also about the WC or F1 you get and how you acclimate them? Personally I have figured out what works best for me in my area. Getting new WC animals or offspring being produced seem to do best for me in spring/summer, along with the rest of my animals, when I can house them outdoors and pump the screen enclosures full of water, WC bugs are available etc. A species such as multituberculata and their water intake when healthy makes me wonder how you would acclimate a WC that takes a lot of hydration with substrate. You know my experience is one sided with screen enclosures so I am curious how good the drainage is in your setups? Is it adequate enough to supply a dehydrated/emaciated WC multituberculata with adequate water?

 

[Chris Anderson]

Chris said..."Whenever anyone suggests that substrate should be avoided for true chameleons, I always ask why then they suggest substrate for pygmy chameleons"...IMHO pygmy chameleons are used to being close to the ground/substrate so may be less likely to have a problem with it. I have never heard of a pygmy chameleon being impacted BTW. However I have heard of many arboreal ones being impacted from the substrate. An arboreal chameleon, IMHO, in the wild wouldn't likely be shooting its tongue out at an insect sitting on soil/substrate where it could get some of the soil/substrate attached to its tongue and draw it into its mouth since they don't spend a lot of time on the ground.

I agree that not all substrates will cause and impaction when ingested...but how are we to know which ones will until it happens? IMHO its better to avoid the possibility than to risk it when it has been reported frequently and there is almost nothing that can be done to resolve the impaction once it happens.

From the Toronto Zoo...
"Gastrointestinal impaction, suffo and providing a medium for pathogens are all risks associated with the addition of substrate to reptile exhibits."...
http://www.torontozoo.com/meet_animals/enrichment/reptile_enrichment.htm

Just my 2 cents worth.

Lynda,

Not having any summary data on the type of substrates in the known cases of impaction in chameleons, I would venture to guess that most of them are cases involving what I would consider inappropriate substrate choices. Proper substrate is much less likely to cause impaction problems than improper substrates and I'm certain if improper substrate choices were removed from the list of impaction cases, the numbers would be far less alarming.

I don't see any reason to believe pygmy chameleons are less likely to pick up pieces of substrate when feeding on feeders on the ground than a true chameleon. Their feeding mechanism is the same and both routinely feed at a downward angle which could result in picking up small amounts of substrate. While due to body size alone a true chameleon may pick up absolutely more substrate on average per feeding, relative to their body size, the amount should be no different between pygmy and true chameleons. Given their identical feeding mechanism and the smaller size of pygmy chameleons, I do not see any reason why pygmy chameleons are any less prone to impaction than a true chameleon on the proper substrate.

Regarding your quote, the site goes on to state in the very next line that: "Substrate can be a great asset in an enclosure; when used appropriately, the benefits of its use will, in most cases, far outweigh the risks." In my opinion there are numerous benefits to using correct substrates. These include water absorption, humidity retention, natural cleanup crews, natural egg laying medium, healthier plants and a more natural environment. In my experience, each of these results in happier chameleons.

This is a great thread and definitely shows the many perspectives on successful chameleon keeping.

Chris, I have wondered for a while how much time your chams get outside a year? Also about the WC or F1 you get and how you acclimate them? Personally I have figured out what works best for me in my area. Getting new WC animals or offspring being produced seem to do best for me in spring/summer, along with the rest of my animals, when I can house them outdoors and pump the screen enclosures full of water, WC bugs are available etc. A species such as multituberculata and their water intake when healthy makes me wonder how you would acclimate a WC that takes a lot of hydration with substrate. You know my experience is one sided with screen enclosures so I am curious how good the drainage is in your setups? Is it adequate enough to supply a dehydrated/emaciated WC multituberculata with adequate water?

Jared,

One limitation to where I live is that I am unable to house my chameleons outdoors but that has nothing to do with my enclosures. Most of the year it is a weather issue (too hot) but even in parts of the year when temperatures are ideal (like right now), I do not have a yard to set them up in. What I do, however, is open windows and blow outside air into my chameleon room at night (or during the day when I'm home and the temps are good) so that the fresh air and cool temps can circulate. I don't think there is a substitute for being able to keep your animals outside year round (or even parts of the year), it is definitely the ideal scenario, but this just isn't an option for everyone. Unfortunately circulating cool outdoor air is the only compromise I am able to make where I live.

As for acclimating WC animals, part of the beauty of the glass terrariums is that you don't have to water as much for the chameleon to get the same benefit in my experience. In screened enclosures, I used to water my montane chameleons twice a day for 20 minutes each time to overcome the lack of humidity retention due to winter dryness or AC related dryness. In my glass terrariums, I mist them twice a day for a minute and a half each time and the chameleons seem just as happy and healthy. For acclimating dehydrated WC animals, I would put them in a screen enclosure in the shower for initial rehydration and subsequent supplemental hydration during acclimation but I would still maintain them in glass terrariums as the humidity retention in these enclosures is very beneficial to acclimating animals.

I know of some European keepers who maintain T. melleri in large terrariums with virtually no misting at all and they are healthy as can be. They use foggers and ultrasonic humidifiers to keep high humidity levels in the air inside the terrarium and ventilation and built in fans to allow the transfer and circulation of fresh air. The animals do beautifully without regular supplemental misting. I think humidity is underrated because everyone is so afraid of stagnant air. Its all about balance but that is where experience and careful maintenance comes in.

Chris

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."Not having any summary data on the type of substrates in the known cases of impaction in chameleons, I would venture to guess that most of them are cases involving what I would consider inappropriate substrate choices"...do you have a summary data on the types that won't cause an impaction?

The article said..""Substrate can be a great asset in an enclosure; when used appropriately, the benefits of its use will, in most cases, far outweigh the risks"...this is exactly the point...the discussion in this thread concerning substrates is about using ones that are appropriate so they won't lead to impaction....and I still don't have a list of ones that definitely won't cause impaction...so I continue to recommend not to use any so that there is no possibility of it occurring from the use of the wrong substrate.

 

[nicholas]

Nicholas,

A lot of the issues with substrates, real and perceived, are actually an enclosure design and maintenance issue rather than an issue with the use of substrates in general.

I definitely agree that using coconut fiber, moss, other coarse substrates or sand is a mistake. Organic soils without chunks and additives, on the other hand, I think are completely different. Impaction is easy with coarse substrates and artificial sand with coarse edges. Organic soil without additives and chunks is much less problematic and is what I am referring to when I talk about substrate.

As for moisture of the soil, any time a substrate is used, drainage should be included. All my enclosures have a layer of hydroton balls for drainage. Additionally, since glass terrariums hold humidity better, the chameleons in them require significantly less watering and wet soil should not be a problem. Species such as T. hoehnelii and T. montium, which are considered species with high water requirements, can be kept in glass terrariums with only a couple minutes of misting per day. The soil does not get or stay overly wet when chameleons are properly watered in these enclosures and are thus not a health issue.

I have also found fully planted enclosures to require much less maintenance than bear bottomed screen enclosures. These enclosure require regular cleaning to maintain their cleanliness. Fully planted enclosures equipped with natural cleanup crews (springtails, isopods, etc.), on the other hand, are very low maintenance.

Finally, I've found that the substrate in fully planted enclosures settles fairly quickly. Once this occurs, there is little place for feeders to hide as a result of the substrate.

Chris

I completely agree. Thanks for the further insight.

 

[Chris Anderson]

Lynda,

By summary data I meant details on the observed cases of impaction that could help determine the occurrence levels of impaction for different substrate types. What I was getting at is that there isn't any such data that I'm aware of, although I suspect that if there were, it would show a clear trend on what types typically cause impaction, and by default, which don't or are less likely to. I still doubt that fine grade organic soil without additives such as perlite, etc., are responsible for any significant portion of those cases. Every case of substrate induced impaction I have heard of has been caused by artificial sand, fibrous substrates such as coco fiber or moss, and soils with perlite or other similar chunks.

Unfortunately I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on the appropriateness of recommending the use of substrate. I definitely am of the opinion that as with any other portion of our husbandry (lighting, plant choice, screen vs glass, feeders, supplementation, etc.), the keeper should educate themselves and use good judgement in implementing their husbandry. I think casting the consideration of substrate completely aside, however, is no better than the arguments people use to condemn the use of glass enclosures for chameleons, a mentality we both fight quite hard to open people's eyes about.

Every piece of our husbandry can cause death if not used appropriately, substrate is no different. If we did not recommend anything that could possibly ever cause a health issue, our daily husbandry recommendation would look very different. If someone were to feed feeders of too large of a size or feed too much, they could have impaction issues but we don't recommend feeding bug juice rather than live feeders. If someone didn't clean their live plants after purchasing them or was not careful about the sap produced while pruning, they could have poisoning or eye issues but we still tend to recommend live plants over fake plants. If someone was to use the wrong UVB lighting for their enclosure or put their other lighting too closely, they could have burns, blindness or metabolic issues, but we still recommend UVB lighting over exclusively dietary D3 and basking spots rather than ambient temperature control. If someone wasn't careful about their supplementation, they could easily overdose or underdose their chameleons, which could lead to death or illness, but we still recommend careful supplementation and gutloading rather than veterinary proscribed supplement cocktails for general every day care. If someone wasn't careful about over or under watering their chameleons, aside from hydration issues, you can have skin problems, yet we still recommend misting. My point is there are potential side effects of everything we do and even though they could each be misused by the uneducated keeper, because they are more natural and with basic education and precautions, they are typically completely safe with the risk being out weighed by the benefits, we continue to recommend them.

In my opinion substrate is a similar situation. When used appropriately, its risks are outweighed by the benefits but people have become so used to it being considered a deadly sin of chameleon husbandry (much like glass enclosures) that they are unwilling to rationally consider the benefits and the ways to utilize them safely and correctly. Is substrate always the best option for everyone? Definitely not, not all enclosures or conditions are good candidates for substrate. Should we recommend substrate without explaining its proper use, precautions or potential danger signs? Absolutely not, just like we should not haphazardly recommend glass enclosures without explaining their proper use, precautions and things to watch for. Should we simply not recommend substrates at all because some substrates have caused impaction? In my opinion, we should no more refrain from considering it as an option than we should stop recommending lights because in some cases they can cause burns.

I've been pleased with my fully planted terrariums for chameleons and I've not seen anything to indicate any of my chameleons have had any impaction troubles or that any were consuming any considerable amount of substrate. I don't think substrate is for everyone but as with anything else, with the proper use, implementation, observation and precaution, I think it has its benefits.

Just my 2 cents.

Chris

 

[kinyonga]

While I agree that we do many things in husbandry based on a judgement, with lighting, use of glass/screen cages, supplements, gutloading there is a fair amount of information about using each of these and which ones are good and which are not...but with the soils I still don't know which ones specifically will not/cannot cause an impaction (with one exception...a specifc king's playsand)...and by the time you find out (when they have an impaction) its too late...so I prefer to not use any and to advise others not to use any.

Here's a site with organic soils...how do you know which one(s) will be safe?...
http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/pottingsoil.htm

As you said...you have your opinion and I have mine and if we don't agree on it, its up to the people to decide for themselves....just like with the information provided/already documented on the lights, cages, supplements, etc. they can make a decision.