Poor tongue use and wobbly

[cherishsgirl]

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - The species: Panther Chameleon, sex: Male , and age of your chameleon: 3 years. How long has it been in your care? 3 years.
Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon: monthly.
Feeding - What are you feeding your cham: Crickets 6, silk worms 3-4 medium large every few days. Since issue I'm hand feeding daily about 3-4 crickets or 1-2 silkworms
What is the schedule: wake up at 630am auto lights and mister, around 8am check calendar to see what supplement using for that day. How are you gut-loading your feeders: Crickets get fresh veggies and fruits, silkworms come with mulberry leaves.
Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule: Fluker's Calcium w D3 every 2 weeks, Fluker's calcium w/o D3 no phosphorus everyday, Repashy Supervite w/o D3 every 2 weeks.
Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use: Mist King auto mister. How often and how long to you mist: twice a day once in morning for about 3 minutes before lights auto turn on about 630am and same in evening before lights go off.
Do you see your chameleon drinking: Occasionally.
Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings: brown and white it was brown and orange (why I increased misting due to winter humidity). Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites: Yes
History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.
Escanor fell about 1 - 1 1/2 months ago
Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?): Combo, PVC and screen Cage (Dragon Ledge). What are the dimensions? 24x24x48
Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using: Arcadia ProT5 UVB Kit 24" With Bulb T5 HO 12% Bulb, Arcadia Ceramic Reflector-5.5" Halogen Heat Lamp-75 Watt
What is your daily lighting schedule: 630 am- 630 pm
Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot): 80-84 Lowest overnight temp: 65 How do you measure these temps: thermostat, laser thermometer
Humidity - What are your humidity levels: N/A How are you creating and maintaining these levels: Misting twice a day What do you use to measure humidity: N/A
Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind? : Yes, Umbrella tree, Lemon Surprise, 2 pathos
Placement - Where is your cage located: on top of a table. Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas: Next to a window on a table away from fan and vents. At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor: About 7 feet from the floor.
Location - Where are you geographically located: Slidell, LA
Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.
Escanor fell about a month to month and 1/2 ago. It scared me I immediately rushed over to pick him up and started looking him over. It didn't seem to hurt him he was just moving slowly. I was having trouble getting feeders due to hurricane for several weeks. I also found out my kids weren't dusting feeders with supplements regularly for months (I took over feeding now or I'm always present making sure they are doing it correctly). He has been having issues using his tongue and catching the Crickets. My son (because I can't do this) had broken the legs of Crickets so he can grab with his mouth. He's moving wobbly. I'm pretty sure it was malnutrition that got him here. I'm currently using blunt tweezer like forceps to hold his silkworms until he grabs with his mouth. The crickets I put in a small cricket keeper where he can call through the top opening and the Crickets won't escape. It takes him a good 10 minutes to trap them in a corner and grab with his mouth, while I'm holding the keeper. It seems as if his tongue is not sticky enough, does not shoot it out like he used to at all. I can get him to stick it out about 1 inch. I updated the supplements since I noticed the other ones were outdated (see pics). The plants are currently being watered today (this is why he only had one currently in pic). I've adjusted everything I know is the issue is there anything else I can do? How long does it take for this to be fixed/ heal?
Cage Info: 24x24x48 Reptireeze cage with dragon ledges, drip pan under screen floor, 4 - 6 live plants throughout cage with about 6 branches giant climbing vine towards the top of cage for basking closer to lights, 2 full throttle feeder mounted to side of cage, zoo med little dripper.

 

[Beman]

How long has the targeting issue been happening? How long now have you been supplementing? And how long did he go without them completely.

There are some additional things I will comment on but I wanted to ask this first.

 

[Beman]

Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule: Fluker's Calcium w D3 every 2 weeks, Fluker's calcium w/o D3 no phosphorus everyday, Repashy Supervite w/o D3 every 2 weeks.

The supplements are incorrect. Repashy supervite is way too high in Vitamin A levels but it also has vitamin D3. So you are overdosing on D3 and providing 2.5 times the amount of vitamin A than is recommended. Both of these are fat soluble so they build up in the body. They can cause a lot of major issues. I would purchase repashy calcium plus LoD version with the jackson chameleon on it. This is a full multivitamin that has A and D3 in the correct amounts for a chameleon. You would use this 2 times a month then the calcium without D3 at all other feedings. You would not use any other supplements with these two.

History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.
Escanor fell about 1 - 1 1/2 months ago

This can happen when they have incorrect and no supplementation. They get shaky and struggle with grip. Too much oral D3 pulls the calcium out of their bones making their bones weak and brittle.

Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using: Arcadia ProT5 UVB Kit 24" With Bulb T5 HO 12% Bulb, Arcadia Ceramic Reflector-5.5" Halogen Heat Lamp-75 Watt

So the UVB strength is far too strong for the distances he can get to it. With this bulb to keep a chameleon in the 3 UVI you want a full 11-12 inches between where the fixture sits on the screen and the branch. Right now he is not only in above recommended levels where he can get right on top of the bulb those levels are not even natural on earth they are so high. Not a lot of studies have been done on too much UVI with chams. But we know in the wild they are exposed to max levels around 12-13 and that is when they retreat into the plants because those high UVI levels are also seen during the peak of the day when temps are hottest. Ideally you would replace your bulb with a 6% UVB bulb and you would make sure your distance is no closer than 8-9 inches from branch to bulb on the screen. This then puts the cham in the 3 UVI level. These bulbs have to be replaced yearly.

Humidity - What are your humidity levels: N/A How are you creating and maintaining these levels: Misting twice a day What do you use to measure humidity: N/A

This is a really important aspect. I highly recommend getting a gauge so you know your ambient levels.

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.
Escanor fell about a month to month and 1/2 ago. It scared me I immediately rushed over to pick him up and started looking him over. It didn't seem to hurt him he was just moving slowly. I was having trouble getting feeders due to hurricane for several weeks. I also found out my kids weren't dusting feeders with supplements regularly for months (I took over feeding now or I'm always present making sure they are doing it correctly). He has been having issues using his tongue and catching the Crickets. My son (because I can't do this) had broken the legs of Crickets so he can grab with his mouth. He's moving wobbly. I'm pretty sure it was malnutrition that got him here. I'm currently using blunt tweezer like forceps to hold his silkworms until he grabs with his mouth. The crickets I put in a small cricket keeper where he can call through the top opening and the Crickets won't escape. It takes him a good 10 minutes to trap them in a corner and grab with his mouth, while I'm holding the keeper. It seems as if his tongue is not sticky enough, does not shoot it out like he used to at all. I can get him to stick it out about 1 inch. I updated the supplements since I noticed the other ones were outdated (see pics). The plants are currently being watered today (this is why he only had one currently in pic). I've adjusted everything I know is the issue is there anything else I can do? How long does it take for this to be fixed/ heal?

So I had posted some additional questions which will help me determine if this is a supplement toxicity/overdose issue or if it is a lack of proper supplement issue. Either way it can take a few months for targeting to return to normal for chameleons. You will have to hand feed until his aim starts to improve and he is able to extend his tongue. With D3 and A both being fat soluble if they are overdone the body slowly removes the excess from the tissues. They are not water soluble so it takes time. If they have not been supplemented correctly and your trying to fix this again this is a slow process of correctly supplementing so the levels slowly build to correct amounts in the system.

This has nothing to do with malnutrition. Adult chams can go on very little food for weeks. Most in fact are over fed. Even 2-4 insects a week they can do well on.

 

[Nal0114]

Vitamin deficiency?

 

[cherishsgirl]

How long has the targeting issue been happening? How long now have you been supplementing? And how long did he go without them completely.

There are some additional things I will comment on but I wanted to ask this first.

It's been going on for around 2 months. If they can go awhile without feeding then it had to be the supplements. The multi vitamin (rapashy supervite) this is new (literally got a few weeks ago) and only given 2x monthly. His entire 3 years I've been supplementing calcium without D3 and phosphorus free every feeding, with D3 only 2x monthly. I believe the lack of supplements happened over a course of 3-6 months. I thought they knew he needed every feeding that's my fault for not expressing this to them.

 

[cherishsgirl]

The supplements are incorrect. Repashy supervite is way too high in Vitamin A levels but it also has vitamin D3. So you are overdosing on D3 and providing 2.5 times the amount of vitamin A than is recommended. Both of these are fat soluble so they build up in the body. They can cause a lot of major issues. I would purchase repashy calcium plus LoD version with the jackson chameleon on it. This is a full multivitamin that has A and D3 in the correct amounts for a chameleon. You would use this 2 times a month then the calcium without D3 at all other feedings. You would not use any other supplements with these two.

This can happen when they have incorrect and no supplementation. They get shaky and struggle with grip. Too much oral D3 pulls the calcium out of their bones making their bones weak and brittle.

So the UVB strength is far too strong for the distances he can get to it. With this bulb to keep a chameleon in the 3 UVI you want a full 11-12 inches between where the fixture sits on the screen and the branch. Right now he is not only in above recommended levels where he can get right on top of the bulb those levels are not even natural on earth they are so high. Not a lot of studies have been done on too much UVI with chams. But we know in the wild they are exposed to max levels around 12-13 and that is when they retreat into the plants because those high UVI levels are also seen during the peak of the day when temps are hottest. Ideally you would replace your bulb with a 6% UVB bulb and you would make sure your distance is no closer than 8-9 inches from branch to bulb on the screen. This then puts the cham in the 3 UVI level. These bulbs have to be replaced yearly.

This is a really important aspect. I highly recommend getting a gauge so you know your ambient levels.

So I had posted some additional questions which will help me determine if this is a supplement toxicity/overdose issue or if it is a lack of proper supplement issue. Either way it can take a few months for targeting to return to normal for chameleons. You will have to hand feed until his aim starts to improve and he is able to extend his tongue. With D3 and A both being fat soluble if they are overdone the body slowly removes the excess from the tissues. They are not water soluble so it takes time. If they have not been supplemented correctly and your trying to fix this again this is a slow process of correctly supplementing so the levels slowly build to correct amounts in the system.

This has nothing to do with malnutrition. Adult chams can go on very little food for weeks. Most in fact are over fed. Even 2-4 insects a week they can do well on.

If the feeding is not the factor then it has to be the supplements. I will definitely keep on hand feeding and your instructions on the supplements. I just odered the repashy calcium plus LoD and will stop the other one. That lighting was old this is what I'm using currently after extensive research from professional chameleon owners etc.. Arcadia D3 12% UVB T5 Bulb - 22". If you think it should still be changed I can do so. I greatly appreciate all this information. Should I continue to feed every other day, daily or what are your suggestions? From my research I know silkworms are one of the healthiest options along with crickets.

 

[cherishsgirl]

Vitamin deficiency?

This is what I'm thinking

 

[Nal0114]

This is what I'm thinking

I don’t remember which vitamin does what but this taught me a lot about vitamins with Chams. John Courtney Smith invents Arcadia lighting and supplements.

I’d give it a listen.

 

[Beman]

If the feeding is not the factor then it has to be the supplements. I will definitely keep on hand feeding and your instructions on the supplements. I just odered the repashy calcium plus LoD and will stop the other one. That lighting was old this is what I'm using currently after extensive research from professional chameleon owners etc.. Arcadia D3 12% UVB T5 Bulb - 22". If you think it should still be changed I can do so. I greatly appreciate all this information. Should I continue to feed every other day, daily or what are your suggestions? From my research I know silkworms are one of the healthiest options along with crickets.

Correct so the info I gave you above about the UVB applies. the 12% is far too strong at the distances you have it at. There is a very large miss information group out there preaching 12% bulbs. They simply do not need this because it is overkill. If you look at repeated sun exposure with high UVI in humans you see more cases of cancer. Although high UVI has not been studied as far as its effects long term on a chameleon you can understand that if that is what it does to humans then it just can not be safe for chameleons.

Single bulb T5HO fixture with a 12% bulb sitting on top of aluminum screen you need a 11-12inch distance from bottom of fixture to branch to have the 3 UVI needed for a chameleon. Where they rise up they end up roughly in a 3-4 UVI level based on the age of the bulb.

Single bulb T5HO fixture with a 6% bulb sitting on top of aluminum screen you need a 8-9 inch distance from bottom of fixture to branch to have the 3 UVI needed for a chameleon. Where they rise up they end up roughly in a 3-4 UVI level based on the age of the bulb.

So if both of these options give you a 3 UVI it comes down to error with distances. This is where most people mess up with either option because they have their branches sitting far too close so you end up with what is considered extreme UVI levels.

I have been in the hobby over 6 years now. I am very knowledgeable about UVI and supplements so I would not steer you wrong.

It's been going on for around 2 months. If they can go awhile without feeding then it had to be the supplements. The multi vitamin (rapashy supervite) this is new (literally got a few weeks ago) and only given 2x monthly. His entire 3 years I've been supplementing calcium without D3 and phosphorus free every feeding, with D3 only 2x monthly. I believe the lack of supplements happened over a course of 3-6 months. I thought they knew he needed every feeding that's my fault for not expressing this to them.

Per the tongue and your response here. Thank you for the additional information. You are most definitely dealing with a vitamin A deficiency. Putting him on the repashy calcium plus LoD 2 times a month then the calcium without D3 will correct this. But it will take time. Make sure you are lightly dusting all of the insects for that day's feeding. His D3 levels need to balance out as well since he has been getting double the amounts he should be but for that short of a period it would not be a concern especially since he had no D3 at all for 3-6 months. Based on adding the supervite and giving it 2 times I would say your looking at another 6 weeks at least of him having issues. It should however start getting better week over week. Just ensure he is not hyper extending his tongue while trying to eat.


Now one last thing to note. While I highly think this is Vitamin A deficiency. I want you to try to look in his mouth and at his tongue when you feed him. It should be normal coloring. If you are seeing black or red areas then there is something additional going on that could be linked with injury or even mouth rot.

 

[cherishsgirl]

Correct so the info I gave you above about the UVB applies. the 12% is far too strong at the distances you have it at. There is a very large miss information group out there preaching 12% bulbs. They simply do not need this because it is overkill. If you look at repeated sun exposure with high UVI in humans you see more cases of cancer. Although high UVI has not been studied as far as its effects long term on a chameleon you can understand that if that is what it does to humans then it just can not be safe for chameleons.

Single bulb T5HO fixture with a 12% bulb sitting on top of aluminum screen you need a 11-12inch distance from bottom of fixture to branch to have the 3 UVI needed for a chameleon. Where they rise up they end up roughly in a 3-4 UVI level based on the age of the bulb.

Single bulb T5HO fixture with a 6% bulb sitting on top of aluminum screen you need a 8-9 inch distance from bottom of fixture to branch to have the 3 UVI needed for a chameleon. Where they rise up they end up roughly in a 3-4 UVI level based on the age of the bulb.

So if both of these options give you a 3 UVI it comes down to error with distances. This is where most people mess up with either option because they have their branches sitting far too close so you end up with what is considered extreme UVI levels.

I have been in the hobby over 6 years now. I am very knowledgeable about UVI and supplements so I would not steer you wrong.



Per the tongue and your response here. Thank you for the additional information. You are most definitely dealing with a vitamin A deficiency. Putting him on the repashy calcium plus LoD 2 times a month then the calcium without D3 will correct this. But it will take time. Make sure you are lightly dusting all of the insects for that day's feeding. His D3 levels need to balance out as well since he has been getting double the amounts he should be but for that short of a period it would not be a concern especially since he had no D3 at all for 3-6 months. Based on adding the supervite and giving it 2 times I would say your looking at another 6 weeks at least of him having issues. It should however start getting better week over week. Just ensure he is not hyper extending his tongue while trying to eat.


Now one last thing to note. While I highly think this is Vitamin A deficiency. I want you to try to look in his mouth and at his tongue when you feed him. It should be normal coloring. If you are seeing black or red areas then there is something additional going on that could be linked with injury or even mouth rot.

His tongue color does not have black or red at all. It looks normal. I will order the correct bulb now. Thank you again. I to have learned a lot these past few years along with who to order these beautiful creatures from. I had 3 failures prior to this young man. There is a ton of misinformation out there!! I learned that from the first 3 along with the last 2 who were purchased by an overbreader. I'm sad that my lack of knowledge caused my first one to pass.

 

[Beman]

His tongue color does not have black or red at all. It looks normal. I will order the correct bulb now. Thank you again. I to have learned a lot these past few years along with who to order these beautiful creatures from. I had 3 failures prior to this young man. There is a ton of misinformation out there!! I learned that from the first 3 along with the last 2 who were purchased by an overbreader. I'm sad that my lack of knowledge caused my first one to pass.

Unfortunately there is so much wrong info and when you are new how the heck is someone supposed to know the difference. I was there once as well I just got very lucky and found the forum right after I got my baby. Then went on a learning binge. The two areas that annoyed me was lack of info on UVB and supplements lol. So those are the two areas I perhaps know a bit too much about. But I am able to spot things quickly for people, so heck I guess my obsessive need to really understand has worked out well for others as well.

Let me know if you have more questions.

 

[Nal0114]

I would check your Vitamin A and B intake

 

[Nal0114]

Unfortunately there is so much wrong info and when you are new how the heck is someone supposed to know the difference. I was there once as well I just got very lucky and found the forum right after I got my baby. Then went on a learning binge. The two areas that annoyed me was lack of info on UVB and supplements lol. So those are the two areas I perhaps know a bit too much about. But I am able to spot things quickly for people, so heck I guess my obsessive need to really understand has worked out well for others as well.

Let me know if you have more questions.

I learn a lot from this forum and the chameleon academy podcast.

I get mutilated on FB so I stopped posting and asking anything there.

 

[Beman]

I would check your Vitamin A and B intake

So yes you are correct. If you look at the prior vitamin use there was not a multivitamin being used that contained vitamin A. This is the vitamin linked to targeting issues most commonly. (however never rush to judgement without knowing the entire picture because prior injury and even some extreme mouth rot issues you can see targeting issues.) Now B vitamins are water soluble. But they are only included in a multivitamin. Calcium with D3 is not a multivitamin it is only calcium with D3. Then you also have to take into account levels in a multivitamin. Across the board if you are looking for the best multivitamin that hits everything vitamin A, D3, plus water soluble vitamins and more then Repashy Calcium plus Lod would be the one. Next one would be reptivite with D3 however they include phosphorus which is not something that we really want because when we supplement we are mainly trying to balance the high phosphorus levels of the insects. So it is not one I recommend.

I learn a lot from this forum and the chameleon academy podcast.

I get mutilated on FB so I stopped posting and asking anything there.

I found that I learned fastest by reading experienced members feedback. When I started I did not have Chameleon Academy site to learn from only his podcasts so I did dive into those as well. I find the more you learn the more you are able to fully understand. However it is also important to remember the learning does not stop. I am only a member of one FB group but I do not contribute much there because I stay busy in the forum. But the only Chameleon fb group I recommend is Bill's group.

 

[cherishsgirl]

So yes you are correct. If you look at the prior vitamin use there was not a multivitamin being used that contained vitamin A. This is the vitamin linked to targeting issues most commonly. (however never rush to judgement without knowing the entire picture because prior injury and even some extreme mouth rot issues you can see targeting issues.) Now B vitamins are water soluble. But they are only included in a multivitamin. Calcium with D3 is not a multivitamin it is only calcium with D3. Then you also have to take into account levels in a multivitamin. Across the board if you are looking for the best multivitamin that hits everything vitamin A, D3, plus water soluble vitamins and more then Repashy Calcium plus Lod would be the one. Next one would be reptivite with D3 however they include phosphorus which is not something that we really want because when we supplement we are mainly trying to balance the high phosphorus levels of the insects. So it is not one I recommend.

I found that I learned fastest by reading experienced members feedback. When I started I did not have Chameleon Academy site to learn from only his podcasts so I did dive into those as well. I find the more you learn the more you are able to fully understand. However it is also important to remember the learning does not stop. I am only a member of one FB group but I do not contribute much there because I stay busy in the forum. But the only Chameleon fb group I recommend is Bill's group.

100 percent agree. I've learned a ton with reading and this forum!!!

 

[cherishsgirl]

So yes you are correct. If you look at the prior vitamin use there was not a multivitamin being used that contained vitamin A. This is the vitamin linked to targeting issues most commonly. (however never rush to judgement without knowing the entire picture because prior injury and even some extreme mouth rot issues you can see targeting issues.) Now B vitamins are water soluble. But they are only included in a multivitamin. Calcium with D3 is not a multivitamin it is only calcium with D3. Then you also have to take into account levels in a multivitamin. Across the board if you are looking for the best multivitamin that hits everything vitamin A, D3, plus water soluble vitamins and more then Repashy Calcium plus Lod would be the one. Next one would be reptivite with D3 however they include phosphorus which is not something that we really want because when we supplement we are mainly trying to balance the high phosphorus levels of the insects. So it is not one I recommend.

Repashy calcium plus LoD

 

[cherishsgirl]

I already ordered to replace the reptivite

 

[Nal0114]

I didn’t see anything listed about injury that is why I added the vitamin advice.

If there’s injury that would change things.

I learn so much from everyone here.

I wish the gecko forum was this active.