Possible eggboud

[beninan]

Hello everyone, this is my first post here, so Ill try to make it a good one.

I have a female veiled who has been showing the signs of being gravid. I've placed her in an egg-laying container 2 days ago. Yesterday she dug several different holes but didn't lay her eggs. This morning her eyes were shut when she woke up and she was trying to rub them in the branches. I noticed a little bit of dirt around her eyes and think that maybe she had gotten some dirt in her eyes. I flushed them with water and the got better, but her right eye was still very slightly closed more than fully open. All day today however, she did not try to dig any more holes and just sat there basking in the light. I can still see eggs lumps in her stomach.
I do have a routine vet appointment for her this Friday (7-9-2010). Would that appointment be too long to wait if she is possibly egg-bound? Is there any way to help her pass the eggs?
Normally she gets her calcium by she gut load in the things she eats, but she hasn't been eating due to her trying to lay eggs. I spray (drench) her enclosure 2-4 times a day and put a couple ice cubes on top to melt every time i spray. Since she isn't eating but she is still drinking, should I dust my ice cubes in calcuim to try to give her more calcium?
Any help would be awesome as this is my first cham and I've been doing my best to do whats best for her. Thanks!

 

[beninan]

Found out I should include some more information....

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - 9 months?/F/Veiled. Been in my care for about 8 months. Name- Samantha
Handling - Handle her around once every week to two weeks to take her outside in the sun.
Feeding - Gut-loaded crickets and superworms, both in her cage at all times so she can eat at her leisure. Gut load is Flukers cricket gut-load and Flukers calcium water gels.
Supplements - Only using Zoo Med's Reptivite with D3 about once a week.
Watering - Mist (more like soak) in the morning before she wakes up and when I get home from work at around 5 pm, sometimes also spraying randomly throughout the day. I also place 3 ice cube at both the morning and the afternoon spraying sessions for dripping. Yes I do see her drinking almost every day.
Fecal Description - I'm colorblind so i don't know what color it is, it looks like chameleon poo, but I haven't noticed anything irregular. I had her tested for parasites but haven't heard back yet.
History - She's rather grumpy....


Cage Info:

Cage Type - Home made wooden frame, screened on all 4 sides. Living space internally is 25"x25"x4'. 1 foot tall boxed in section on top for lights and the ice cube drippings.
Lighting - I don't remember exactly what brand the UVB light is, but it's a T5 Desert series (or was it tropical?). Heat lamp I think is a 100w UVA heat bulb from Zoo Med's. I also have a regular 60w light bulb for extra heat during those cold winter days. Lighting schedule is around 6:30 am, both lights on. 6-7 pm heat lamp gets turned off. When she starts moving to her "sleepy spot" as we call it, the UVB light gets turned off.
Temperature - 2 thermometers in cage- one on bottom, one on top. bottom temp stays at room temperature (around 65-75 degrees F). Basking spot stays around 90-110 degrees F when light is on. At night, all lights are off and cage is left to sit to room temp.
Humidity - 2 humidity gauges in cage- one on bottom, one on top. I honestly cannot tell you what the humidity stays at. I've watched it for several months, and noticed due to the routine spraying, it will bounce anywhere from 50% to 100%. right now its at 70%.
Plants - Live pothos plant hanging from the ceiling of her cage with a couple of fake plants here and there. Also several basking sticks, and lots of screened cage walls that she climbs on. She does eat the pothos plant.
Placement - In an area in the kitchen where I thought the least amount of traffic would be, but when my roomate brother decides to have his friends over for a D&D party (yes... you heard right...) the area tends to get a little more congested than I would like. Cage hight relative to floor- it's a 6 foot cage overall, 1 foot off the ground, 4 feet of living space, and 1 foot at the top for lights and such.
Location - Great (?) state of Maine, USA.


Current Problem - Read above

 

[jannb]

Welcome to the forums. This is a great place to learn about chameleons.

First you have got to lowers those temps you are cooking her. She should bask around 80.

You have quite a few thinks in your husbandry that you need to change but for now we'll work on the egg laying problem.

She needs a deep bin 12 inches deep. She needs complete privacy for digging and laying eggs. If she sees you looking she could abandon her hole and become egg bound. I would get her to the vet before Friday. The vet can give her a shot that will help her to lay the eggs.

 

[jannb]

Below are some things you need to change to keep Samantha healthy and happy.

You need a Reptisun 5.0 tube light. You can see a pic of it here: It's the best UV bulb.

http://lllreptile.com/store/catalog...por-bulbs/-/zoo-med-24-repti-sun-50-uvb-bulb/


She will probably never need a basking light. I use a double fixture with one UVB bulb and one regular fluorescent bulb and that works perfect to keep the temps at 80. Being female 80 or 81 should be her temps her entire life unless you breed then you could up it a bit...84 or 85......you'll still want a small clutch. If your house is really cold you might need a 15 or 25 watt basking bulb.

The feeders have to be "lightly" dusted with 3 kinds of supplements......very important to prevent MBD. Plain calcium (no d3) at just about every feeding...... if you skip one or two days a month that's ok. Calcium with d3 twice a month and a multi. vit. once a month. In this link I use the 1st, 3rd and 5th one.

http://lllreptile.com/store/catalog/reptile-supplies/vitamins-medicines-and-cage-cleaners/


You need to gut load the feeders with collard greens they are excellent. You can also use kale, carrots, butternut squash apple and orange. You can also buy a premixed gut load. One of the Forums members sales it here.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/dry-gutload-sale-37717/


This is how her poop should look Post #2 a brown part and a white part.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/normal-poop-43052/#post401342


The Raising Kitty link on keeping veileds is excellent. I still refer to it from time to time.

http://raisingkittytheveiledchamele...-max=2008-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=11


This blog is VERY IMPORTANT for keeping a female:

http://raisingkittytheveiledchameleon.blogspot.com/2007/12/keeping-female-veiled.html

 

[kinyonga]

Welcome to the world of chameleons!

Did she see you watching her when she was digging? You shouldn't let them because it makes them feel that the place is unsafe to lay eggs and can push them towards eggbinding.

Usually people recommend not using ice cubes....the water is too cold for them.

You said you are dusting with Zoo Med's Reptivite with D3 about once a week...reptivite has prEformed vitamin A in it and that and the D3 can build up in the system and cause problems.

Since many of the feeder insects have a poor ratio of calcium to phos. its important to dust with a phos.-free calcium powder at most feedings.

I also dust with a phos.-free calcium D3 powder twice a month to ensure that the chameleon gets some D3 but leaving it to produce the rest from its exposure to the UVB. D3 from supplements can build up in the system...but D3 from exposure to the UVB shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move away from it. The UVB should not pass through glass or plastic. I use a repti-sun 5.0 long linear fluorescent tube light to provide the UVB in a double fluorescent hood for female veiled chameleons. I put a regular fluorescent light in the second half of it. I don't use a basking light for the females at all.

I dust twice a month with a vitamin powder containing a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A. Beta carotene will not build up in the system like prEformed can...however, there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert it...so some people use a little prEformed once in a while. Excess prEformed may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD...so be careful with it.

IMHO your temperatures are high. I normally keep female veileds in the low 80's to slow their metabolism (along with keeping them on a "diet") with the intention of decreasing the size of the clutches.

I wouldn't put calcium on the ice cubes in case it drips into the chameleons eyes.

I gutload the crickets, superworms, etc. with a wide assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, celery leaves, zucchini, etc.).

Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are all important players in bone health and need to be in balance. You need to look at what you are feeding the chameleons, what you feed the insects and the supplements you use when trying to balance them.

I hope she goes back to digging for you and lays the eggs. Try to give her as much peace as possible right now so she can...maybe cover the sides of the cage where people can see in...don't move her in and out of the cage, etc.
They often take more than a day to dig the hole to their satisfaction.

This is the way it should go...female digs a hole until she is satisfied with it (maybe a couple of test holes first...but should settle on one), turns around butt down and lays her eggs (often in the evening)...fills the hole in and tamps it down and returns to the branches.

 

[beninan]

Thank you
I was wrong on the basking temp. The temp I said is actually the temp read on the thermometer, which is actually too close to the light, but there isn't really a good spot to place it to determine the basking spot temp without her actually crawling on it. shes about 1 foot below the light at all times, which should be around 80 I would think. I'll have to take another reading while shes in the egg laying container.
As for the calcium, I'll have to order some more of that. As for the vitamin that I've been using (Zoo Med's Reptivite with D3), should I be using that as the multi vitamin once a month, or should that be dusted twice a month?
The dry gutload that you showed me looks exactly like the gutload I have been using, but I'll have to try some actual fruits and veggies.
Her egglaying container has about 9 inches of eco-earth/sand mix with a fake plant and a basking stick. The egg tank is actually in my bedroom where there is the least amount of traffic, but theres no room in there for her big cage. I haven't been giving her the privacy she deserves though while she has been digging, so ill have to set up some kind of a privacy barrier. The vet won't be open tomorrow, so hopefully they can make some time for me on monday...
It's been aggravating trying to research this information. I have found a lot about breeding and incubating eggs but not a lot about the actual egg laying except for the fact that becoming egg-bound is common and the specs on an egg-laying container.

 

[jannb]

Has she been mated?

 

[beninan]

Has she been mated?

No she has not. I didn't even know she was gravid until the other day when I saw her scratching at the ground. She didn't show any of the dark colorations that I have read about until after the first day of digging, and it wasn't until then when I noticed the egg lumps in her stomach.

By the way, I just purchased some calcium dust, with and without D3, and vitamins from lllreptile.com

 

[kinyonga]

If you take her to the vets tomorrow you may be stopping her from digging.

Can you not put a container of washed playsand in her cage that is 12" x 12" x 8" deep? Or alternatively use a new tall garbage can with a bag of sand in the bottom of it would work too....but IMHO you can't wait to set up a proper place for her to lay the eggs. There are only so many days that they have the urge to dig and lay the eggs before they head to eggbinding.

 

[beninan]

If you take her to the vets tomorrow you may be stopping her from digging.

Can you not put a container of washed playsand in her cage that is 12" x 12" x 8" deep? Or alternatively use a new tall garbage can with a bag of sand in the bottom of it would work too....but IMHO you can't wait to set up a proper place for her to lay the eggs. There are only so many days that they have the urge to dig and lay the eggs before they head to eggbinding.

She is in a separate egg laying container right now and has been for a couple days. the container is a Rubbermaid plastic tote thats about 17"x30"x13" (if I remember correctly) with about 9 inches of soil/sand mix. There is also an empty gallon water jug in there to "simulate" a rock/root because I've read that they feel more comfortable digging along something like tree roots. there is also a fake plant for some privacy and a climbing stick.
I set this container up the day I saw her digging at a small dirt container in the bottom of her normal cage. I let her continue to dig in that small container (only 4 inches of dirt) to see if she would lay her eggs. when she stopped for the day, I transferred her to the egg laying container where she has been for the past 2 days. Day 1 in egg laying container was spent digging multiple holes but no eggs. Day 2 (today) was spend on the climbing stick.

 

[Elizadolots]

This is a very good thread.

beninan, is the sand moist enough to hold a tunnel? I think that's what she's scratching around to determine, though I'm sure there are other issues.

 

[beninan]

This is a very good thread.

beninan, is the sand moist enough to hold a tunnel? I think that's what she's scratching around to determine, though I'm sure there are other issues.

its moist enough for me to make a tunnel, but not too moist to collect water at the bottom of the tunnel.

She's back to digging now and I'm trying my hardest not to have anyone disturb her. I'm not sure how well her tunnel is going to be, as she is digging in the corner of the tank almost straight down. But I'll let her do her thing today and see what comes of it.

 

[kinyonga]

I'm glad she is back to digging again. Make sure that nobody disturbs her and that she doesn't see you watching her when she is digging. Let her get through this process as peacefully as possible so she won't end up eggbound.

 

[beninan]

I'm glad she is back to digging again. Make sure that nobody disturbs her and that she doesn't see you watching her when she is digging. Let her get through this process as peacefully as possible so she won't end up eggbound.

I closed the door and left for the day so I wouldn't be tempted to look.
Now what is the best way to give her water and calcium during this process? I have a dripper, but the the adjustment valve is touchy and likes to stop randomly so I've stopped using it. I was thinking about spraying the tank but she was already awake and digging when I woke up, so I didn't want to disturb her. I did resort back to ice cubes and sneaked one onto the top of her tank this morning, but what about calcium? She hasn't eating anything for several days, which is normal from which I've read, and thats the only way I've been giving her calcium. Are there other ways to administer calcium during this process that wont involve too much contact with her so I will know for future egg-laying sessions?

 

[jannb]

Just leave her alone and do not disturb her or you can cause her to abandon the hole and become egg bound.

 

[beninan]

Just leave her alone and do not disturb her or you can cause her to abandon the hole and become egg bound.

So are you saying to not supply water and calcium during this process?? I've never got a definite answer on this question. Everything that I have read has said water and calcium are very important during this process, and if it is, how is it done?

 

[jannb]

So are you saying to not supply water and calcium during this process?? I've never got a definite answer on this question. Everything that I have read has said water and calcium are very important during this process, and if it is, how is it done?

Do not mess with her at all until she has finished......then offer her water and feeders with extra calcium dust or liquid calcium if you have it.

 

[beninan]

Do not mess with her at all until she has finished......then offer her water and feeders with extra calcium dust or liquid calcium if you have it.

Ok, thank you. I didn't want to neglect her by not giving her anything but I also didn't want to disturb her by giving her something.

From what I see so far, this forum is a wonderful place!

 

[beninan]

last night after she fell asleep I carefully put a towel around the outside of her tank to prevent any visual access (it's clear plastic).
How will I know when she is done? I don't want to go snooping around to try to see whats going on, but I also don't want to neglect her like I said in my previous post.
Or should I just wait a day or two longer to check up on her? She started digging this past Thursday, so it has been 5 days now.

 

[kinyonga]

When she's done she should fill in the hole and return to the branches....and likely look thinner.