possible MBD

[Iago]

• • Iago is about 3 months old and weve had her for about 2.
    • She is a Veiled Cham
  • My GF handles her at least once a day for roughly an hour or so.
  • her feeding habits is usually about 10 crickets who are a feed and orange feeder once a day. She is also given about 13 mealworms a day.
  • For water she has a small bowl that my GF changes the water in everyday.
  • Her fecal matter is currently and has always brown or black sometimes with abit of white.
  • her cage is roughly 2 feet tall by a foot deep.
  • Its both glass paneled with a removable screen top.
  • We use fake plants that give her access to her hammock at the top and also have a branch that crosses through the tank from bottom to top.
    • im not sure what the temp is but we are going based on what the store help told us. We relied on her info as she owned a chameleon too.
    • our day and night cycle is from 9 am to 7 pm. We use two lights for day and one red for night.
      • We keep the humidity levels at recommended ranges by spraying the cage with water twice a day and we also have a mini water fall that cycles water and keeps humidity up.
      • The cage is located at the far back corner of our room to make sure she isnt stressed out by alot of movement. And its about 3 feet of the ground and 4 feet from the ceiling.

for about a week now my GF Chameleon, Iago, has been getting worse and worse with her walking. Now shes at a point where she can barely grip anything and has next to no use of her hind legs. Also under her tummy she has a large purple patch with a tiny dot of exposed flesh. She is roughly 3 months old.

One website mentioned Metabolic bone disease which has very similar symptoms.

Attached is a photo of the patch. If you look you will see a small dot, thats the exposed flesh.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/purple-patch-133379/

photo is on that page.

 

[kinyonga]

You didn't mention supplements in your post and your gutloading/feeding of the insects needs to be addressed.

Since most feeder insects have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorous its important to dust the insects before feeding them to the chameleon to help make up for it.

Dusting twice a month with a phosphorous - free calcium D3 powder will ensure that the chameleon gets some D3 without overdosing it. They can't overdose on D3 from exposure to UVB as long as the chameleon can move in and out of the UVB when it wants to...but it can get too much D3 from overdoing supplements.

It's also recommended that you dust twice a month with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene ( prOformed ) source of vitamin A. This form cannot lead to an overdose since it's converted as needed. There is controversy as to whether or not any/some chameleons can convert it though so some people give a little prEformed once in a while.

D3, vitamin A, calcium and phosphorous are all important players in bone health and other systems in the chameleon and need to be in balance which is why dusting and gutloading are important.

You can feed/gutload crickets, roaches, superworms, locusts with a wide assortment of greens such as collards, escarole, endive, dandelion greens, kale, etc. And veggies such as carrots, sweet red pepper, squash, zucchini, sweet potato, etc.

It's important that the chameleon has a UVB light so that it can produce the vitamin D3 it needs to use the calcium in its system. It's also important that the chameleon has the right temperatures in its cage so it will aid in the digestion and thus indirectly in the nutrient absorption.

If your chameleon has MBD you need to first correct the problem and then supplement, etc properly to prevent it from returning.

Water should be offered by misting because water in a bowl and via a waterfall can be a bacteria factory.

Please post a recent photo of her so I can see her from the side.
Not sure about the purple patch...my playbook doesn't show pictures well for things like that.

 

[Lovereps]

Vet visit right away

In addition to my recommendation for an immediate vet visit, a review of your care reveals some things that are harmful to her health and should be changed without delay.
Often people are given the wrong care advice and I'm guessing that that may have happened to you.
Chameleons are pets that have a rather narrow range of requirements in order to keep them happy and healthy.
When their care falls outside that range, they get sick.
Chameleons are near the bottom of the food chain, in the wild, so they have to be constantly alert for predators.
Because of this, a chameleon will do all that it possibly can to appear healthy, until it's so sick that it can't hide it anymore.
That's why I said in another post that your cham needs immediate medical care.
For her comfort, you can gently apply Silvadene cream but she still needs to be examined by a vet and prescribed medication before it's too late.

Below are my comments in red on which things are harmful and should be changed, as well as what isn't being done that she truly needs.

• • Iago is about 3 months old and weve had her for about 2.
    • She is a Veiled Cham
  • My GF handles her at least once a day for roughly an hour or so.
    
    Far too much handling for a chameleon. They lead solitary lives in the wild and that much handling is very stressful. Stress causes an increased chance of getting sick.
    
  • her feeding habits is usually about 10 crickets who are a feed and orange feeder once a day. She is also given about 13 mealworms a day.
    Chams need a variety of feeders that are fed a nutritious diet, so they give your cham nutrients. If you're giving the feeders an orange gel cube, those don't do the trick, nutritionwise
    Please have a look here for what insects should be fed https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/food/
    
  • For water she has a small bowl that my GF changes the water in everyday.
    Chams don't recognize pools of water as water they can drink. It's just the way they are "wired". In the wild--and as pets--they see glistening drops of water on leaves as the only thing they should drink.
    Because they also get rained on in the wild, they realize they should drink when they are misted for a few minutes. More info herehttps://www.chameleonforums.com/care/water/
  • Her fecal matter is currently and has always brown or black sometimes with abit of white. That's good. The white part is urate and the urate is white when she is getting enough water to drink. (cham pee)
  • her cage is roughly 2 feet tall by a foot deep. Also good
  • Its both glass paneled with a removable screen top. Might be good Might be bad--depends on whether it's an aquarium with a screened top or a Terrarium like Exo-Terra makes which has vents in several places for air circulation.
  • We use fake plants that give her access to her hammock at the top and also have a branch that crosses through the tank from bottom to top.
    • Without knowing what it looks like I can only say it's probably good though a hammock is a little odd for a chameleon, since they always stand on their feet and don't lay down like bearded dragons do. Does she have enough leaves to hide behind? Chameleons live in trees and bushes and hiding amongst foliage makes them feel less vulnerable to predator attacks.
    • im not sure what the temp is but we are going based on what the store help told us. We relied on her info as she owned a chameleon too.
      Captive chameleons rely on a basking lamp to warm themselves up in order to digest their food and absorb the nutrients from them . If temps are too low, they get malnourished. Temps too high, dehydrated. That's why you need to know what the temperatures are in her basking spot and the areas where she can escape the heat of the lamp if she needs to be cooler.
    • our day and night cycle is from 9 am to 7 pm. We use two lights for day and one red for night.
      • This tells me the pet store person doesn't know much about chams. The red light at night is very bad. Chameleons do see red light and it keeps them from being able to sleep.Remove that for her sake.
        You don't mention any UV light----If she is missing is the UVB light that she absolutely needs, she could eat blocks of calcium but her body would not be able to absorb it for use in growing bones or for her muscles to work.
        This is one thing that will make a cham weak and unable to hold onto branches.
        Please read this, written by a veterinarian about MBD and how it's treated https://www.chameleonforums.com/wha...ase-mbd-looks-like-how-happens-how-fix-95071/
        What it looks like in her case is an injury or burn that caused the flesh to be exposed. Skin protects the body from infection and a large patch of missing skin may have let bacteria invade and the infection would then be making her very weak.
        I know vet visits aren't cheap but it is the only chance you'll have of saving her.
      • We keep the humidity levels at recommended ranges by spraying the cage with water twice a day and we also have a mini water fall that cycles water and keeps humidity up. As cool as they look (and they do look cool) with chameleons they are just a source of bacteria unless they're cleaned daily. Often chams actually use these as toilets (and I am not kidding.) COLOR]
        [*]The cage is located at the far back corner of our room to make sure she isnt stressed out by alot of movement. And its about 3 feet of the ground and 4 feet from the ceiling. Excellent
        
      
      
    
    
  
  

for about a week now my GF Chameleon, Iago, has been getting worse and worse with her walking. Now shes at a point where she can barely grip anything and has next to no use of her hind legs. Also under her tummy she has a large purple patch with a tiny dot of exposed flesh. She is roughly 3 months old.

One website mentioned Metabolic bone disease which has very similar symptoms.

Attached is a photo of the patch. If you look you will see a small dot, thats the exposed flesh.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/purple-patch-133379/

photo is on that page.

What is missing is calcium on most feedings
a multivitamin 2x each month and
Calcium with D3 2x a month
without these , chams develop nutritional deficiencies and get sick

 

[kinyonga]

Chameleons do drink from dishes of water some times...I learned that in the "old" days when we were all just learning about chameleons. Not saying it's a good thing...but it's true.

 

[Lovereps]

I'm just trying to help the guy straighten out some husbandry mistakes for the sake of his sick cham--who desperately needs a vet visit if it isn't already too late for her.

My understanding is that while a desperately thirsty chameleon might figure out that a bowl of water contains water and drink from it, most chameleons won't.
That being true , what you've said is like saying, "People sometimes eat out of garbage cans." when what is really true is that most people don't eat out of garbage cans, but a desperately hungry person will.
I suspect that that is usually the reason for a cham to drink from standing water--sheer desperation. You did mention that you weren't saying it's a good thing but I wanted to clarify of the sake of others, who might otherwise think it was ok to do.

For that reason, the forum's own resource page on water and humidity states ," unlike most animals, chameleons usually won’t recognize standing water as a drinking source".
Quoted from here https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/water/

To virtually every rule there is an exception but I fear that making statements that are generally not true for most chameleons only serves to confuse.

 

[Djturna4thakidz]

Yeah, no light at night, and it is critical you get a thermo for your temps. Chameleons need very specialized environments, that require a lot of time and effort to create. There are a lot of problems with your husbandry that need to be corrected for her to make a recovery

 

[crazychamzoo]

Lovereps hit all the points spot on, I agree, the only thing I would add is my interpretation is that you have a 4 sided glass enclosure with a screen top. If that is the case that is a breeding ground for bacteria, and unhealthy for your Cham, you should switch to a full screen enclosure for the benefit of your Cham, they need max air circulation.

 

[Lovereps]

crazychamzoo, that's a very good catch.
My brain must have napping on that point, as I somehow assumed it was a terrarium designed for reptiles rather than an aquarium that's not good for chams.

Changed my statement there to "Might be good Might be bad--depends on whether it's an aquarium with a screened top or a Terrarium like Exo-Terra makes which has vents in several places for air circulation."

That's why it's great when many people read and add answers than just one or two.

 

[crazychamzoo]

I'm just super sensitive to glass enclosures for Chams, we started out like most people as a keeper, our love and infatuation for Chams soon became a rescue and rehabilitation operation and we spent hundreds of dollars on antibiotics treating RI's and eye infections from Chams that came into our care that where kept in stagnant glass enclosures.

 

[kinyonga]

It's a fallacy that chameleons don't drink from dishes... nor recognize puddles/pooled water too for that matter. I didn't expect my comment to start a war. I was just telling what I know from personal experience and that of others. I have seen quite a few chameleons drink from a dish of water or water that pooled temporarily on the floor of the cage in spite of being misted and having a dropper running in the cages. It was mostly veileds and common chameleons but there were others too.

I'm still also saying that I generally wouldn't recommend it as a rule.

Drinking from pooled water or water in a dish...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/chameleon-drinking-bowl-249/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7U2Hd4cwqc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyyzz7dUFUc
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/lizards/116811-chameleon-baggy-eyes.html

Also...from personal experience in the good "old" days....chameleons can live in aquariums. We did it out of necessity when I first started keeping them over 25 years ago. They lived long healthy lives too but there were precautions....lights have to be set up to create a chimney effect for air flow and you need to be careful not to have standing stagnant water lie in the cage. For those reasons I don't recommend them for most chameleons today. There are better options.

 

[johnnyev]

you should switch to a full screen enclosure for the benefit of your Cham, they need max air circulation.

Personally not a lover of these enclosures myself, especially for new chameleon keepers. Depending on ambient room temps/humidity of course, but these enclosures can also cause problems. New inexperienced keepers often fail to keep temps/humidity to required levels, in my experience. Especially here in the uk & in winter months especially.
Great for outside in warmer weather though.

 

[Lovereps]

Kinyonga, there's no war intended at all and I'm sorry if it came across that way.

Stepping aside from the "water war" , the OP is making some very serious but easily correctable husbandry errors.

If his cham does get the urgently needed vet treatment, correcting these errors will give her a much better chance of surviving and regaining her health.

Personally, I am always very interested in learning more and in learning what is oft-repeated fallacy and what is factual.

There is plenty more to be learned about chams and experienced hobbiests having friendly discussions is always good.
Dispelling myths and oft-repeated fallacies is something that should be done.

This forum is a "godsend", especially when compared to those days when chams were kept by very few, the internet was non-existant, good cham books had yet to be written and trial and error were the only ways knowledge was gained.
Common sense, a little reptile knowledge and some luck were what kept my chams going back then.
Still, had I known then what I now know, their lives would have been longer.
The "school of hard knocks" isn't fun to attend!

I'm glad you've added what you know to be true about the water issues and that you added the caveat that it isn't a good idea to provide water that way.

That's what this forum is all about; learning and sharing that knowledge with others, so they can have chams who lead long, healthy lives.

 

[kinyonga]

Lovereps..between what you said and what I said in our posts hopefully we have touched on what could be improved. You are very helpful with your posts.

There is soooooo much more to learn about these amazing creatures. Even after keeping them for over 25 years I have so much more to learn....and know I will continue to learn....as will you!

You said " his forum is a "godsend" especially when compared to those days when chams were kept by very few, the Internet was non-existent, good chameleon books had yet to be written and trial and error were the only ways knowledge was gained....it's exactly how/when I started off. When I first started keeping chameleons I was told I was crazy 'cause they only live a couple of weeks in captivity....but I already had my first...a male Senegal. Lucky for him I "accidentally" got the husbandry reasonably right and he lived for quite a long time. My second was a female (species undetermined) and she was adult and with me for 4+ years. At that point I started telling people how I kept them hoping theirs would live too. My vet had only treated a couple of chameleons at that point but he was interested in them so things went well. I was lucky to be able to be involved with the vets, the zoo and even studies on chameleons after that. Enough on my history!

Back to the thread...the OPs chameleon does need to see the vet ASAP....and the husbandry corrected if this chameleon is to survive.

This forum is about learning and sharing and helping others with their chameleons! Carry on!