Possible MBD?

[Majubo87]

Your Chameleon - Female, Veiled, approx 4 months old - name is yoda
Handling - Very rarely, just to clean cages and the once and a blue moon to show somebody the chameleon.
Feeding - I was primarily feeding crickets and meal worms, both gut loaded with commercial feeds high in calcium. I just started breeding dubia roaches and am gut loading them with a chow high in protein and also with citrus. Feed a 2-3 times a day with 2-3 crickets/roaches at a time.
Supplements - Zilla Liquid Calcium w/o d3 daily, ReptoCal Powder Calcium w/ d3 twice a month, and Rep-Cal Herptivite with Beta Carotene Multivitamin
Watering - Mist cage with a sprayer 3-4 times a day. Also have a fogger that runs about 4-5 hours a day. I have seen the chameleon drinking before, usually catches droplettes from the fake foilage.
Fecal Description - When feeding the meal worms the fecal matter was rather slimely looking, once i got rid of them and switched to the roaches with a few crickets here and there it seems pretty normal. The urine looks a tad yellow. No parasite check since I've had her
History - Bought her from Petsmart right before christmas - she was super small (maybe 3" with tail outstretched). Have noticed lately that her walk is a little shaky and she is getting extra "elbows" on her legs.

Cage Type - Exoterra Rainforest Terrarium 18"x18"x36"
Lighting - Day lights: Repti-Glo 5.0 UVB 25w & Zilla Day White Light. Night Lights:Zilla Night Red Heat 50w. Day Lights come on around 7am and switch to night around 9pm
Temperature - Temp Ranges: floor-75F basking-83/85F lowest overnight-68F Measured with a digital instant read thermometer with max & min temp recall
Humidity - Humidity is around 70% relative humidity - have a hygrometer measuring it.
Plants - Fake vines and 3 Live: Scindapsus and 2 type of mother in law tongue
Placement - Cage in about 20 feet from a window and its beside the living room couch. There is a vent above it on the wall but it blows towards the opposite side of the room. Top top of the cage is about 5' off the floor
Location - South Louisiana

This is my first chameleon. I've done a decent amount of research before buying her and still am reading up on whatever I can find on veiled chameleons. Lately I've noticed her walk to be a bit shaky lately, the "elbows" starting in her legs, and also when she's stopped for long times she'll lay her body on a vine so she doesn't have to hold herself up. I'm worried this is MBD and am not sure what all to do. After doing my initial research there was no mention of supplementing calcium without d3 daily until a found this website, so i started doing that three weeks ago. The beginning of this week i got in a dubia roach started colony and am breeding them now to feed yoda - which she really seems to like the taste of them.

Here are some pictures of the set-up and yoda:

 

[kinyonga]

Looks like MBD to me.
You will first of all need to correct the imbalances....then you will also need to correct her husbandry to stop it from coming back.

The quickest way to correct the imbalance is to take it to a vet and get it injections of calcium until the blood levels of calcium are high enough that it can be given a shot of calcitonin to draw the calcium quickly back into the bones.

Here's some information I hope will help you with supplementing, etc.....
Appropriate cage temperatures aid in digestion and thus play a part indirectly in nutrient absorption.

Exposure to UVB from either direct sunlight or a proper UVB light allows the chameleon to produce D3 so that it can use the calcium in its system to make/keep the bones strong and be used in other systems in the chameleon as well. The UVB should not pass through glass or plastic no matter whether its from the sun or the UVB light. The most often recommended UVB light is the long linear fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 tube light. Some of the compacts, spirals and tube lights have caused health issues, but so far there have been no bad reports against this one.

A wide variety of insects that have been well fed and gutloaded should be fed to it.

Since many of the feeder insects we use in captivity have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus in them, its important to dust the insects just before you feed them to the chameleon at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder to help make up for it. (I use Rep-cal phosphorus-free calcium).

If you also dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder it will ensure that your chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. It leaves the chameleon to produce the rest of what it needs through its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system but D3 produced from exposure to UVB shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it. (I use Rep-cal phos.-free calcium/D3).

Dusting twice a month as well with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A will ensure that the chameleon gets some vitamins without the danger of overdosing the vitamin A. PrEformed sources of vitamin A can build up in the system and may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD. However, there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene and so some people give some prEformed vitamin A once in a while. (I use herptivite which has beta carotene.)

Gutloading/feeding the insects well helps to provide what the chameleon needs. I gutload crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms, etc. with an assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.)

Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are important players in bone health and other systems in the chameleon (muscles, etc.) and they need to be in balance. When trying to balance them, you need to look at the supplements, what you feed the insects and what you feed the chameleon.
Please note that various supplements have various amounts of D3 and vitamin A and so some can be given more often than others. The idea still is not to overdo the fat soluble vitamins like D3 and prEformed vitamin A.

Here are some good sites for you to read too...
http://chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200406080...d.Calcium.html
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://web.archive.org/web/200601140...ww.adcham.com/
If you can't access the sites above that have the word "archive" in you can do it through the WayBackMachine.

 

[Elizadolots]

Hi, Majouba.

Welcome!

What a cute chameleon. I love the name.

I have to agree that it looks like she's suffering from MBD.

The good news is, if you can treat her properly, she can have a good life and be a good pet for you.

It might be a long haul but based on what others have posted, I think you will find the experience completely worthwhile.

I'm including a link to a story about a family that found out their chameleon had MBD. It's a long read, but it's good and I hope it inspires you.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/please-help-poss-impaction-veiled-female-67257/

 

[kinyonga]

BTW its best if its corrected quickly because it not only affects the bones but also other systems in the chameleon.

 

[Majubo87]

thanks for the quick replies! I'm going to be calling around tomorrow to see where the nearest exotic pet veterinary is down here in Southeast Louisiana.

 

[kinyonga]

Good luck!

 

[Elizadolots]

Excellent.

I'm sorry I mispelled your name...

I just searched the board's list of vets and didn't find one in Louisiana so if you find one with knowledge, please add that.

I'm thinking that in Louisiana there are vets good with reptiles...

just sayin'

My family is from Louisiana and I went there every summer (and some winters) growing up... so we're probably related...

 

[EvilLost]

I see you have already been helped

I just wanted to throw in that you should not be using a red night light. Chameleons can see the red spectrum....use a ceramic heat emitter which puts out no light at night if it gets too cold

 

[Majubo87]

after looking online and a few phone calls I found a vet that deals with exotics! Its in Thibodaux, LA and if the case is too difficult to figure out they will refer you to the LSU School of Veterinary Medicine who have Exotic Specialists.

But they are closed on weekends, so i will be calling on monday to make an appointment.

Is there anything I can do in the mean time to help her. Are the supplements I'm using the right ones? with the liquid calcium w/o d3 daily, calcium with d3 twice a month, and multivitamin w/ beta carotene twice monthly.

Thank you for the tip EvilLost. The local pet shop I bought a majority of my set-up from told me they couldn't see the red light and I didn't think to check it - the guy running it is regarded for knowing his stuff when it comes to pets. But After your insight and doing a little research of my own, I am going to change it out!

@Elizadolots - its all good with the mispelling. I didn't catch it until you posted that lol.


Thanks for all the replies so quickly. Even though I've only had Yoda for a little while I'm attached and will do about anything to make her better. I've always wanted a chameleon growing up and my wife got me the basic tank set-up for Christmas and told me that I could get one when I was ready - so i did a bunch of research and thought I was ready. I've noticed its kind of a never ending learning thing with chameleons - there's always something new about them to read up on

~Matthew

 

[ataraxia]

Wish the both of you patience and a good recovery.

Keys on reversing:

Proper calcium intake - Preferably Liquid at this point
Proper UVB Exposure - Natural sunlight is best if your weather permits, new uvb florescent bulb.
Correct Temps - 80-84 basking low 70's ambients.

edit: I also have no long term experience with zilla spray calcium. Just as a back up measure, i would buy some Plain phos free calcium and dust half of the feeders and spray the other half if you wish to compliment this.

 

[Majubo87]

just saw some of her fecal matter. it has gotten better but still seems a bit off. When i first got her it wasn't quite as large and seemed a bit drier. Is this also from the calcium deficiencies?

 

[BoopDoop]

Hey I live in southeast Louisiana also there is a great hep vet in New Orleans, I will try and get the name for you and where it is located.

 

[Majubo87]

I would appreciate that. I live in Houma, LA but have family in New Orleans so I travel there often.

 

[BoopDoop]

You live in Houma, I live right there in Chauvin, well I will try and get the information on where they are located, my cousin brings her reptiles there all the time.

 

[ataraxia]

I dont know how old the droppings are. Feces looks fine, urates look dry, small but white with a light yellow tip (could be semi old droppings). Just keep hydrating her like you have described. Keep the basking temps in her cage 80- 84.

 

[BoopDoop]

They have marcello's right there in houma by richards, those bridal shops, and peppers , I don't know if they deal with chameleons or not but you could call and see

 

[BoopDoop]

West Esplanade Vet on West Esplanade AVe behind West Jefferson Hospital. Dr Greg Rich and Dr. Leslie Pence, in New Orleans. This is the place I was talking about.

 

[xeonic]

Bowing

Does anyone know if the bowing of the arms return back to normal after the MBD has been reversed. Or do the arms remain bowed for the rest of the chameleons life?

 

[Elizadolots]

The bowing is a result of breaks (multiple breaks) and will not revert to normal. However, the breaks will heal and the animal will be able to climb and get around almost like normal.

 

[kelsxox]

get rid of the red night heat light! it should be complete darkness at night.. if her temps go below 50 at night then find a ceramic heat emiter... she's definatly got MBD.. mine does too .. i'm giving her TREX bone aid right now to try and HEAL it