Possible start of MBD?

[Benton1576]

Hello,

I recently got an adult Chameleon from a well respected forum member and he appears to have a small problem with his back legs. He seems quite uncoordinated and sometimes grabs his sides or front legs whilst trying to climb. He walks fine, but when climbing vertically he seems to not be able to use his legs properly and tends to use his front legs to pull him up. He has no obvious signs of MBD, bowed bones, tongue issues etc. In fact, aside from the back legs being unsteady and weak, he is very healthy, eating, drinking, pooping etc etc. He even gave a female the nod a few days ago.

Please dont ask me to fill in the how to ask for help form, I know how to look after Chameleons and as I said, I recieved him like this.

Is it possible he could have the start of MBD even thought the previous owner has tons of experience and his husbandry is top notch? None of his other Chameleons show any problems and they all have the same lights, suppliments, feeding times etc etc. Can MBD still occur even though husbandry is good, suppliments etc? COuld anything else cause weakened back legs?

 

[KarmaChameleon1337]

We'd need pictures to see.

 

[AngieL]

Does he poop regularly? Is there a chance he could be impacted? I've read that severely impacted chams can have back leg issues. That's just something I read on here though, I'm not an expert.

 

[Benton1576]

We'd need pictures to see.

Pictures wont help at all, he looks perfectly normal!

 

[Benton1576]

Does he poop regularly? Is there a chance he could be impacted? I've read that severely impacted chams can have back leg issues. That's just something I read on here though, I'm not an expert.

Yeah he poops regularly, I fed him several silkworms yesterday and he left me a smelly squidgy present in the bottom of his cage today! lol

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Can MBD still occur even though husbandry is good, suppliments etc?

Unfortunately yes. It is rare, though known to occur. Just like in people, individual chameleons can be more sensitive to certain things than others, and it is possible that he has some sort of minor defect that affects his metabolism. Sometimes if it's minor it can be overcome with more calcium than normal, strictly limited phosphorus intake, and lots of natural UVB. How old is the cham?

Like AngieL said, there can be other things causing weakness. Pinched nerves due to impaction, or even just a really large bowel movement, eggs in females, enlarged kidneys, or a mass can cause symptoms of weakness. If you just got him it is possible he was injured in shipping even. Maybe it is something that will resolve over time.

 

[Benton1576]

Finally, what took you so long! lol

Ive already started to up his calcium and I am being very stringent on his suppliments and being careful with gutloading my insects. Ive been using mainly Silkworms over the last few weeks as I heard their nutritional value far exceeds crix and hoppers.

He is 10 months old and cant have had problems in shipping as my friend brought him to me, I dont trust many couriers in the UK! Im hoping it will resolve over time. As I said, it could be possibly the start of MBD, but certainly wont get any worse. I use arcadia T5 lighting, and when the sun does occasionally shine here I get them out for a few hours. Hopefully the weather will continue to improve so I can get more outside time. He definately isnt impacted as I got a good sample from him today! Apart from the weakness in his back legs, he appears totally fine and is actually quite active.

Unfortunately yes. It is rare, though known to occur. Just like in people, individual chameleons can be more sensitive to certain things than others, and it is possible that he has some sort of minor defect that affects his metabolism. Sometimes if it's minor it can be overcome with more calcium than normal, strictly limited phosphorus intake, and lots of natural UVB. How old is the cham?

Like AngieL said, there can be other things causing weakness. Pinched nerves due to impaction, or even just a really large bowel movement, eggs in females, enlarged kidneys, or a mass can cause symptoms of weakness. If you just got him it is possible he was injured in shipping even. Maybe it is something that will resolve over time.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Lol, I was distracted elsewhere.

It sounds like you're on the right track as that's what I would be doing too. What do you use for gutloading if you don't mind me asking? Maybe we can further refine what are usually good gutloading ingredients to better suit him personally.

 

[Benton1576]

Thank you, I do know bits and pieces! lol.

I use dandilion greens, rocket, kale, corral lettuce, endive, chard, carrot, apple, pear, orange and turnip greens (the leaves off the top of the turnip) sweet pea shoots, other types of lettuce such as romane etc (they come in a mixed bag) dinofuel raptor edition. Im sure all of them are fine and safe, and I dont use them all at once everytime, I alternate between all of the above as and when I can get them from the local supermarket.

Lol, I was distracted elsewhere.

It sounds like you're on the right track as that's what I would be doing too. What do you use for gutloading if you don't mind me asking? Maybe we can further refine what are usually good gutloading ingredients to better suit him personally.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

To judge which ingredients to use you want to know exactly how much calcium there is compared to how much phosphorus. The presence of phosphorus actually inhibits the absorption of calcium, so to counter this you need to make sure your calcium to phosphorus ratio stays at least at 2:1, and higher is even better.

In normal chameleon nutrition you can use primarily higher ratio food and sprinkle in some of the less healthy foods as well. In your case where your cham might be more sensitive than most I would not use anything that is less than 2:1 for at least the next few months. Once he returns to normal then you can use them again sparingly. But in the meantime you want to truly maximize calcium intake with gutloading as well.

The ratio of calcium to phosphorus
Rocket (Arugula) 3:1
Dandelion 3:1
Kale 2.5:1 but high in oxalates, which prevent calcium absorption so don't use
Coral lettuce - cant find info on it, but lettuces are generally not great for nutrition
Endive 2:1
Chard 1:1 - too low in calcium, don't use
Carrot 0.6:1 - wrong ratio, don't use
Apple, pear, orange - poor calcium, don't use
Turnip greens 4.5:1
Sweet pea - cant find phosphorus content to calculate ratio
Romaine 0.8:1 - wrong ratio, don't use

I used this approach to gutloading myself when one of my chams had some gular edema since one of my suspicions is that he might have had a kidney disease component to it, which can cause phosphorus to rise and calcium to fall in the body.

 

[Benton1576]

That is fantastic. Thank you so much for the information and taking the time to research the calciumhosphorous ratios for me. I will use the higher calcium gutloads (dandilion, turnip greens, rocket and endive) and monitor him carefully over the next few weeks. You just saved me a fortune at the vets confirming what I thought so again thank you. You are definately a diamond on these forums!

To judge which ingredients to use you want to know exactly how much calcium there is compared to how much phosphorus. The presence of phosphorus actually inhibits the absorption of calcium, so to counter this you need to make sure your calcium to phosphorus ratio stays at least at 2:1, and higher is even better.

In normal chameleon nutrition you can use primarily higher ratio food and sprinkle in some of the less healthy foods as well. In your case where your cham might be more sensitive than most I would not use anything that is less than 2:1 for at least the next few months. Once he returns to normal then you can use them again sparingly. But in the meantime you want to truly maximize calcium intake with gutloading as well.

The ratio of calcium to phosphorus
Rocket (Arugula) 3:1
Dandelion 3:1
Kale 2.5:1 but high in oxalates, which prevent calcium absorption so don't use
Coral lettuce - cant find info on it, but lettuces are generally not great for nutrition
Endive 2:1
Chard 1:1 - too low in calcium, don't use
Carrot 0.6:1 - wrong ratio, don't use
Apple, pear, orange - poor calcium, don't use
Turnip greens 4.5:1
Sweet pea - cant find phosphorus content to calculate ratio
Romaine 0.8:1 - wrong ratio, don't use

I used this approach to gutloading myself when one of my chams had some gular edema since one of my suspicions is that he might have had a kidney disease component to it, which can cause phosphorus to rise and calcium to fall in the body.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Aww thanks Benton! I hope your little guy starts improving in the next few weeks!