Post-Antibiotic Recovery Hint

[Chameleons Northwest]

While visiting our Veterinarian this week he gave me this advice for reintroducing healthy flora to our chams' digestive track following antibiotics. According to him, this is THE way to do it. And he is a certified Herp vet.:

Are you ready for this? It only works if you have more than one chameleon. OK. Here goes. (Probably most of you already know/do this, but it was news to me.) Anyway:

You take a poop from a known healthy, parasite-free chameleon. You stir a toothpick around in the poop. Then you stir that same toothpick around in the food you are about to feed the chameleon who just got off antibiotics (or one that is on a long course of antibiotics). The cham's food is now chock full of good bacteria and other flora for digesting his grub. You pop it into his mouth, and, Viola! He will love you forever!

P.S. Don't try this on yourself. Just eat some yogurt with live cultures.

 

[Will Hayward]

Sounds fairly risky, unless you are 100% positive that the other chameleon is problem free. Even then there is chance for serious issues to arise. While I respect this information from a knowledgeable vet, He can respect my choice to be skeptical of the value and risks of such a procedure.

Interesting none the less. Though I would think that it be better to use some other type of digestive aide for insectivores.

 

[FaunaBgirl]

That's some valuable and appreciated information, thanks!
Any other known options available?

 

[kinyonga]

I don't think I would do it...just my personal choice...but to me it would be less "dangerous" if it was a mate's poop or at least a chameleon of the same species.

 

[mika]

I think that's why the vet said this:

You take a poop from a known healthy, parasite-free chameleon.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

I don't think I would do it...just my personal choice...but to me it would be less "dangerous" if it was a mate's poop or at least a chameleon of the same species.

I haven't tried it yet. The plan was to do it for a baby Meller's. We have his pal, who pooped Thursday, and we ran a fecal and it was clean. But I discarded the rest of the poop when I collected for the fecal . So I've been waiting for another poop. I'm not knowledgeable enough to assess the risks involved here, but was inclined to follow the doctor's advice. The baby who was on antibiotics finally passed a poop yesterday, but it appeared to be undigested food. I don't mean chunks of gunk. I mean the stuff pretty much looked the same going in as it looked coming out. So, I am realizing it is time to do something. How else do I revive his intestinal cultures? Or, is it worth the risk to follow the doctor's advice?

 

[Will Hayward]

I think that's why the vet said this:

You take a poop from a known healthy, parasite-free chameleon.

Mika, While you can assume that the chameleon is healthy and problem free, and even test all you want with blood, fecal samples and more, it will only minimize the risk, not eliminate it. There are plenty of things that can lie in wait undetected before becoming problematic.

Feces are more than half made up of raw bacteria. Both bad and beneficial bacteria, and for a chameleon that is not up to it's peak health, there may be some question to how the immune system would respond. As I understand it Herbevoires produce feces with more beneficial bacteria than insectivores and carnivores, which have less.

A pro-biotic designed for insectivores would be a more logical route I think. But again, I'm not a vet, and can only suggest to follow the instructions of qualified vets, or possibly several opinions from independent ones if the information you are receiving seems at all questionable.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

A pro-biotic designed for insectivores would be a more logical route I think. But again, I'm not a vet, and can only suggest to follow the instructions of qualified vets, or possibly several opinions from independent ones if the information you are receiving seems at all questionable.

Is this pro-biotic something available over the counter? Like "Total-zymes" or "Total-Biotics", but for insectivores?

 

[Will Hayward]

I'd suggest discussing it with your vet.

I'm not refering to any product in specific. Probiotics are formulated to introduce specific species of microflora into the intestines. The different species of microflora help digest different dietary items. So, that is why a probiotic designed specifically for an insectivore would be needed.

Tomorrow I'll take a look through Maders book and see if there is any mention of it there.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Thank you, Will. I have Lowell Ackerman's The Biology, Husbandry, and Health Care of Reptiles, but did not find anything useful in there concerning this issue.

 

[mika]

Mika, While you can assume that the chameleon is healthy and problem free, and even test all you want with blood, fecal samples and more, it will only minimize the risk, not eliminate it. There are plenty of things that can lie in wait undetected before becoming problematic.

Feces are more than half made up of raw bacteria. Both bad and beneficial bacteria, and for a chameleon that is not up to it's peak health, there may be some question to how the immune system would respond. As I understand it Herbevoires produce feces with more beneficial bacteria than insectivores and carnivores, which have less.

A pro-biotic designed for insectivores would be a more logical route I think. But again, I'm not a vet, and can only suggest to follow the instructions of qualified vets, or possibly several opinions from independent ones if the information you are receiving seems at all questionable.

I believe Gesang must have a lot of knowledge in dealing with chameleons and so therefore I assume she would pick a very good vet.

If her vet's methods sounds iffy, how can I even trust my cham to a vet?

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

I believe Gesang must have a lot of knowledge in dealing with chameleons and so therefore I assume she would pick a very good vet.

If her vet's methods sounds iffy, how can I even trust my cham to a vet?

Well, actually, I don't have any experience with reptile pro-biotics, and not a whole lot of experience with chams, compared to many. So, the folks on this forum have really been helping me out here for several months now. But thank you for your encouragement and support, Mika. And I mean that sincerely.

The difference between a herp vet and the people on this forum is that many of the folks on this forum are immersed in the minutiae of cham care, while even the most dedicated herp vet perhaps has more of a global, less refined, experience with chameleons. Sometimes it makes a difference, sometimes it doesn't.

 

[Will Hayward]

I believe Gesang must have a lot of knowledge in dealing with chameleons and so therefore I assume she would pick a very good vet.

If her vet's methods sounds iffy, how can I even trust my cham to a vet?

As I said before, I didn't question the vet, only the practicality of doing this as opposed to using a probiotic. Trusting a vet is something that is hard to do. Which is why other opinions from other vets, are a good thing to have when it comes to questionable advice. Discussing with those that have long term good experience with chameleons would also be wise, just to make sure that the vet's advise seems sound. A vet may suggest a treatment that would be fine for most reptiles, but might have a less common issue in chameleons specifically. They are Herptile Vets, not Veiled Chameleon Vets.

Posting here to verify the use of a certain drug is usually a good idea. There are a few vets that do visit the forums and may post their opinion. Or, a forum member that has previously experienced the same situation might report that the drug was ineffective in their case, and used another instead. Taking this information back to your vet might help them reassess the solution.

 

[dodolah]

this method is actually not new at all.
This kind of behavior happened in the nature.
Although I do not know whether it happened within the chameleon community,
I do know for a fact that during the first months of baby Koala's growth, they literally lick their mom's anus and ate a sample of her poops.

This process allow the baby to have beneficial digestive bacterias and some micro organism that aid the immune system from the mom to be transfered into its own digestive track.

 

[PardalisGirl]

Bene-Bac Powder...........

Hello all...........I have been treating reptiles for parasites for about fifteen years. I always use a product called Bene-Bac Powder after the treatment is done. It is available at pet stores and vets. You can also get other "Probiotic" products made by companies specializing in reptiles. The Bene-Bac Powder was originally made for dogs, cats, rabbits, etc. They are also treated for parasites, etc. Any animal, or human for that matter, that is treated for parasites or given an antibiotic can benefit from having natural organisms introduced back into the intestinal tract. Flagyl, Albon, Panacur and antibiotics of just about every sort kill of the beneficial stuff too. I had a serious illness earlier in my life that was treated with lots of antibiotics. I took something afterwards to get my digestive sytem back to normal afterwards. I'm in the process of treating a bunch of wild caughts for parasites. After that is done they will all be getting crickets dusted with Bene-Bac every few days. My two cents...............

 

[Jeweledchameleons]

This is commonplace in the medical field.. although we like to not speak of it.

I would expect that a recovering animal will get their flora via the nibbling
that crickets perform upon feces from other animals
This is a direct injection of sorts to restart their cultures.
or you can stir and smear (above).

Humans can also expect their doctors to hand them some gelcaps, pills
or a frothy drink after completion of radiation or chemo therapy...
Yes, it is a healthy culture from the rear end of another human intended
to re-establish the micro flora in the intestines.
Enjoy that thought next time you have to undergo an hard round of antibiotics.

 

[Dave Weldon]

Howdy,

I've used NutriBAC with several chameleons that went through tough rounds of anti-parasite treatments. I mixed some of it with water and squirted in the chameleon's mouth. I assume that it did what it was supposed to do .

"Reptile & Amphibian Probiotic -NutriBAC df - A probiotic for use with reptiles and amphibians. Contains naturally occurring microorganisms tested and proven."

http://www.beanfarm.com/store/agora.cgi?cart_id=3699578.6265&p_id=15016&xm=on

 

[Sepioteuthis]

I just happened to ask my vet (Dr. Stahl) about probiotics yesterday. He said it would only be beneficial if the product was made by culturing intestinal flora from reptiles. Using something that was developed for mammals probably doesn't do any good. He said it probably wouldn't hurt either, though.

Personally I have never had problems with chameleons 'recovering' on their own from treatment with antibiotics. I also don't keep their cages sterile, so I'm sure they pick up fresh bacteria while drinking etc.

I don't think Gesang's vet's idea is that outlandish at all. But I would want to be very sure of the health of the animal supplying the feces.