Pregnant, Basking, and Mouth Rot

[Metal725]

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Female Panther Chameleon. 2+ years old
Handling - 1 or 2 times a week to weigh her and look her over.
Feeding - 5-10 Dubias/Crickets daily or every other day
Supplements - Calcium every day, D3 every other Sunday, and Multi-Vitamins every other Sunday.
Watering - Mist at least 3 times a day and i have physically seen her drink.
Fecal Description - Normal looking poop and white urates

Cage Info:
Cage Type - 18x18x36 screen cage
Lighting - 12 hour heat lamp and UVB schedule
Temperature - 80-90 degrees
Humidity - Usually around 30-50%
Plants - Live Pothos plants, vines, branches
Placement - In the living room about 4 feet off the floor
Location - California


Question 1. When we bought this little beauty in March of this year from a reptile show, she had some kind of wound on her lower lip and has since got a little better without medication. We were told it was possibly from her rubbing on the screen cage they had her in. Ive noticed in the last couple days she has a small area that looks swollen and her lip on the left side no longer lines up with her upper lip. Her mouth looks a little yellow on that side but she still eats, is active, and urates and poop look normal.

Question 2. In the same couple of days we noticed that she basks pretty much most of the day. Its been 80-90 here in the SF bay area lately so i know its not a heat issue but strange that she is up there all day.

Question 3. All of this is happening while pregnant with her 3rd retained clutch. She was unknowingly pregnant when we bought her from the reptile show. She has laid 2 clutches from the same male encounter so we have 43 eggs cooking away in the closet ready to hatch hopefully by the end of the year.

**A vet visit is planned for Monday since the 3 vets in our area don't have a reptile vet on staff today. Just wanted to see if anyone had any thoughts on this at the moment**

 

[melble68]

Vet absolutely to look at her mouth. Are you sure the eggs are fertile? She could be laying infertile eggs from to high basking temps and large quantity of food.

 

[Metal725]

No the eggs are fertile. Clutch 1 has been incubating for 5 months and Clutch 2 for 2 months. I candled the eggs and can see the babies. This current clutch could be infertile unless she retained from Clutch 2...wont know until she lays them. You think her temps are too high and food is too much? I thought female temps should be around 85 and 5 medium/large dubia every day or every other day doesn't seem like that much...She usually comes running for food

 

[melble68]

That's awesome about the fertilization. Let's see if others will chime in.

 

[kinyonga]

If she's producing eggs now is not the time to cut down on her feedings or temperatures.

If she has mouthrot its in the early stages (can't see the photo well enough on my playbook to know)...so it's a good time to get it treated except that she's producing fertile eggs which may make it not a good time for antibiotics....you'll have to ask the vet.

How long should it be until she lays the eggs?

 

[Reddogzz]

except that she's producing eggs which may make it not a good time for antibiotics....

I had this issue with my female jackson's, she had an extreme case of mouthrot when she was pregnant, and because she wasn't feeling well she just kept holding on to the babies. Remember that the moutrot is a secondary issue... hopefully the eggs are not going to be effected by the primary issue (whatever that may be).

In my case the vet surgically removed the giant (pea sized) abscess from the side of her jaw, and we treated the infection with watered down Povidone-Iodine which is cheap at most drug stores, the trick is to water it down on a cotton swab until it is the color of mild-weak tea (normally it is dark brown) and then use it to clean areas where there was once the abscess material (you have to clean that out somehow, sometimes a q-tip is enough sometimes the vet will use a toothpick-type thing) just don't let them swallow the iodine. Our female came out fine from what looked like a horrible situation.

So that would have worked except that as I mentioned before, her case of mouthrot was much worse than this case, so it also required that we treat with baytril, so the babies never came... strangely enough..., over a year later she still looks pregnant?! She is happy though.

The pharmacist told me the reason that the vet would recommend the iodine over something like hydrogen peroxide, is because the Povidone-Iodine kills the bacteria without killing the tissue.

 

[kinyonga]

Sorry meant to say fertile eggs...fixed it in the previous post.

Did you ever have her xrayed since she didn't have the babies Reddoggzz?

 

[Reddogzz]

Sorry meant to say fertile eggs...fixed it in the previous post.

Did you ever have her xrayed since she didn't have the babies Reddogzz?

No, I asked my vet at the time but the vet didn't want to do an x-ray she said she wouldn't be able to tell if there were babies or not and if they were alive or not. I thought it was kind of weird response, but that is what she told me so...?!? I always wondered though because it has been a loooong time.

 

[Metal725]

I had this issue with my female jackson's, she had an extreme case of mouthrot when she was pregnant, and because she wasn't feeling well she just kept holding on to the babies. Remember that the moutrot is a secondary issue... hopefully the eggs are not going to be effected by the primary issue (whatever that may be).

In my case the vet surgically removed the giant (pea sized) abscess from the side of her jaw, and we treated the infection with watered down Povidone-Iodine which is cheap at most drug stores, the trick is to water it down on a cotton swab until it is the color of mild-weak tea (normally it is dark brown) and then use it to clean areas where there was once the abscess material (you have to clean that out somehow, sometimes a q-tip is enough sometimes the vet will use a toothpick-type thing) just don't let them swallow the iodine. Our female came out fine from what looked like a horrible situation.

So that would have worked except that as I mentioned before, her case of mouthrot was much worse than this case, so it also required that we treat with baytril, so the babies never came... strangely enough..., over a year later she still looks pregnant?! She is happy though.

The pharmacist told me the reason that the vet would recommend the iodine over something like hydrogen peroxide, is because the Povidone-Iodine kills the bacteria without killing the tissue.

Thanks for the help everyone. Her lower lip/chin area doesn't look as swollen today and she laid the biggest poop I've ever seen from her today. I will still get her checked out ASAP just to make sure everything is still good. She seems healthy with the exception of the swollen area though. Took her outside today and she ate 4 large dubias. Felt around her belly again and i can't feel anything now so I'm just wondering if her stress/gravid colors are showing due to the mouth issue. I also figured she was about to lay eggs due to the fact that she was in and out of her laying bin (not digging) for 2 or 3 days but hasn't been in it since, so it could just be her wandering around.

 

[junglefries]

This clutch will most likely be infertile. However, it is possible to get maybe 5-10 fertile eggs from the clutch. I would say definitely no more 15 will turn out fertile. Hold on to them and wait. The most I got from a third clutch is maybe 5-7, I think. It has been a while, so hard to be exact with numbers. Good luck.

 

[kinyonga]

When was the last clutch laid?

 

[Metal725]

When was the last clutch laid?

Clutch 1 was April 25 and Clutch 2 was July 19

 

[kinyonga]

So she's been dropping eggs since mid July??
Was all of the first clutch laid at the same time in a hole and the hole filled in after? No eggs dropped after that clutch?

 

[Metal725]

So she's been dropping eggs since mid July??
Was all of the first clutch laid at the same time in a hole and the hole filled in after? No eggs dropped after that clutch?

Heres a little timeline...

Bought her in March at a local reptile show without knowing she was pregnant.

About a month later (April 25th) she laid a clutch of 19 fertile eggs.

2 months later (June 19) she laid her second clutch of 24 fertile eggs.

She looks and acts like she may be carrying eggs again but i can't feel anything in her belly.

She has never been with our male so these 2 fertile clutches were from the same encounter from before we bought her.

 

[JaxyGirl]

From the symptoms it sounds like she might have a vitamin A deficiency.
I egg laying females are very prone to this because of the toll it takes from producing clutches of eggs it depletes their bodies of much needed vitamins.

 

[Metal725]

From the symptoms it sounds like she might have a vitamin A deficiency.
I egg laying females are very prone to this because of the toll it takes from producing clutches of eggs it depletes their bodies of much needed vitamins.

She has a pretty varied diet of crickets, silks/horn worms occasionally, and Dubias but i recently made Dubias a main diet to all of our chameleons.

 

[JaxyGirl]

She has a pretty varied diet of crickets, silks/horn worms occasionally, and Dubias but i recently made Dubias a main diet to all of our chameleons.

I'm sure you do feed a varied diet but sometimes that isn't enough. It also depends on what you're feeding your feeders and your supplements etc. There are a lot of variables. Unfortunately your chameleon has a vitamin deficiency that has been followed with other infections such as mouth rot, tongue issues and eye problems etc that a healthy chameleon would be able to fight off with a healthy immune system.
Females panthers have different dietary needs especially if they have been laying eggs.
There is a lot of controversy around this aspect. Here is a thread I started along with some older research. Hope it helps.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/viatimin-deficiencies-cameleons-143583/
http://www.researchgate.net/publict...45a3&key=d651e24a-6d7f-41e8-804e-339d9c188b53

 

[Metal725]

I'm sure you do feed a varied diet but sometimes that isn't enough. It also depends on what you're feeding your feeders and your supplements etc. There are a lot of variables. Unfortunately your chameleon has a vitamin deficiency that has been followed with other infections such as mouth rot, tongue issues and eye problems etc that a healthy chameleon would be able to fight off with a healthy immune system.
Females panthers have different dietary needs especially if they have been laying eggs.
There is a lot of controversy around this aspect. Here is a thread I started along with some older research. Hope it helps.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/viatimin-deficiencies-cameleons-143583/
http://www.researchgate.net/publict...45a3&key=d651e24a-6d7f-41e8-804e-339d9c188b53

Thank you for the articles. I will definitely read them when i get a chance. I was using Kale and spinach as part of my regular gut load but have since switched it up a bit. Its been a while since the change but could this be a possibility on the Vitamin A deficiency?

 

[JaxyGirl]

Thank you for the articles. I will definitely read them when i get a chance. I was using Kale and spinach as part of my regular gut load but have since switched it up a bit. Its been a while since the change but could this be a possibility on the Vitamin A deficiency?

It could be the reason but there can also be other factors. From what I've read feeders in general don't contain a lot of vitamin A and it depends on how much vitamin A your feeders have been getting in their gut load which is then passed on to your Cham when they eat them. There is a lot of debate whether beta carotine from vegetable matter can be converted to Preformed vitamin which is then stored in the liver of the Cham for use hen th body needs it.
Chams store vitamin A in their livers and when they are healthy there is pleanty of vitamin A in their systems in order to function proprerly. Egg laying females have a lot of stress on their bodies and their liver might be depleted of vitamin A in order to produce eggs. Egg yolks are loaded with vitamin A and other vitamins in order to sustain the growing babies within. Her biological predisposition in life is to produce viable eggs and these nutritiants come from the females body in order to produce those eggs. That's a lot of vitamins being depleted from her body which can lead to a deficiency and If these vitamins aren't being replaced through her diet its going to take a toll on her body.

 

[MamatoElvis]

Spinach and broccoli sound so healthy but you should avoid those two. They block calcium absorption.