Probiotics?

[Extensionofgreen]

Years ago, I used a reptile probiotic for melleri that had recently been treated with dewormers and Albon ( was what they used for coccidia in the dark ages ), or antibiotics. I can't say if it helped or not.
I'm curious to know if any of you have information or opinions regarding the use of human probiotics for reptiles and if they even work with reptile guts, seeing as their body temperatures are so much lower. I imagine they can't hurt and since live cultures survive refrigeration and supposedly colonize our guts, I'm sure some would be benificial.
If any of the vets here know what species of bacteria are found in healthy chameleon guts, that would be great information. I'm considering opening a capsule and dusting the feeders with it or offering the probiotics as part of the insect gutload.

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

Years ago, I used a reptile probiotic for melleri that had recently been treated with dewormers and Albon ( was what they used for coccidia in the dark ages ), or antibiotics. I can't say if it helped or not.
I'm curious to know if any of you have information or opinions regarding the use of human probiotics for reptiles and if they even work with reptile guts, seeing as their body temperatures are so much lower. I imagine they can't hurt and since live cultures survive refrigeration and supposedly colonize our guts, I'm sure some would be benificial.
If any of the vets here know what species of bacteria are found in healthy chameleon guts, that would be great information. I'm considering opening a capsule and dusting the feeders with it or offering the probiotics as part of the insect gutload.

My girl had been on antibiotics a few weeks back . I asked her vet if it was a good idea probiotics . She said it would not make difference , Chameleons don't absorb probiotics .

 

[Andee]

I don't understand why probiotics wouldn't absorb, reptiles have bacteria in their guts just like every other living thing. However I don't believe human probiotics would work, I think the bacteria in chameleon guts would be much simpler and possibly have no similair bacteria of the human gut. In fact it could cause more harm than good, if you somehow upset the balance of the gut in anyway, it could cause serious illness. Such as vomiting, diarrhea, invitation for parasites, and other severe illnesses.

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

I don't understand why probiotics wouldn't absorb, reptiles have bacteria in their guts just like every other living thing. However I don't believe human probiotics would work, I think the bacteria in chameleon guts would be much simpler and possibly have no similair bacteria of the human gut. In fact it could cause more harm than good, if you somehow upset the balance of the gut in anyway, it could cause serious illness. Such as vomiting, diarrhea, invitation for parasites, and other severe illnesses.

I'm not sure why I did not ask . I was more concerned with Frances issue and keeping her hydrated while on antibiotics . I could call tomorrow and get the answer ?

 

[Extensionofgreen]

Chameleons undoubtedly have good gut fauna, like most, if not all organisms. The question is whether there is safe method of supplementing them and which organisms should be considered.

 

[Andee]

I agree I would be interested to know, because antibiotics can be seriously problematic for gut flora. I mean god knows hamsters which are hind gut fermenters, which means they need to eat their own poop to keep their gut flora healthy and alive, can die from a course of antibiotics if not given Greek yogurt, which gives them healthy probiotics to work with. I don't think it's quite as dangerous for chameleons, but my point is antibiotics are more dangerous than most people realize.

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

I agree I would be interested to know, because antibiotics can be seriously problematic for gut flora. I mean god knows hamsters which are hind gut fermenters, which means they need to eat their own poop to keep their gut flora healthy and alive, can die from a course of antibiotics if not given Greek yogurt, which gives them healthy probiotics to work with. I don't think it's quite as dangerous for chameleons, but my point is antibiotics are more dangerous than most people realize.

I will give a call tomorrow see what she says .

 

[cass737]

I'm sure that there are people more knowledgeable than myself, but unfortunately to my knowledge we don't have a great idea of exactly what the gut flora of chameleons is specifically composed of. The only study I know of that has looked at chameleons specifically is from 1962, and the abstract is as follows:
Abstract :i. All the Enterobacteriaceae found in mammals were also present in chameleons with the usual predominance of lactose-positive species. Salmonellae were isolated with the same frequency as Proteus and more often than the Arizona group; they were regarded as normal constituents of the flora.
Link: https://www.cabdirect.org/cabdirect/abstract/19632701232?start=601800

I agree with Andee in that it is not a matter of whether the probiotics are absorbed, because no animal absorbs probiotics. It's more a matter of whether the bacteria we would be supplementing would be appropriate for them or not.

 

[Extensionofgreen]

I agree with the last post, that cursory research shows common gut fauna between mammals and reptiles, but most of the studies reference iguanas, alligators, or others reptiles, and not chameleons. I would imagine that live feeder insects contain a lot of these bacteria in their own guts and pass them on, when they are consumed. I doubt supplementing with probiotics would cause harm or imabalances, as the gut is designed to support the population densities that are harmonious and excess colonization of supplemented probiotics have shown to not have any side effects. Imbalances in gut flora and fauna do occur, but that is when stressors or medications allow species that are not included in probiotic supplements to proliferate. There are no incidents of symptomatic infections of supplanted species of probiotics that we know of.

 

[tucc185]

I don't have any chameleon-related expertise in this field, but I have done extensive research on probiotics for aquaculture purposes (mostly aquarium fish). Surprisingly, most probiotic strains both found in fish GI tracts, and those proven to have a positive impact on growth and immune response, are actually often the same as those found in humans and livestock. I imagine any good multi-strain agricultural probiotic would be a big help for a recently-imported cham or one undergoing antibiotic treatment.

 

[tucc185]

Here are some strains I would aim for. All of these have been indicated as having positive effects in fish production:
Lactobacillus rhamnosus, L. acidophilus, L. plantarum, Bacillus subtilis, Enterococcus faecium, and Aspergilius oryzium

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

I don't have any chameleon-related expertise in this field, but I have done extensive research on probiotics for aquaculture purposes (mostly aquarium fish). Surprisingly, most probiotic strains both found in fish GI tracts, and those proven to have a positive impact on growth and immune response, are actually often the same as those found in humans and livestock. I imagine any good multi-strain agricultural probiotic would be a big help for a recently-imported cham or one undergoing antibiotic treatment.

My vet did not want Frances on them while on antibiotics. She's a great vet not a quack . I did not ask her why I was more concerned with hydration and the issue . I will have to give her a call to find out what her reasoning was . Thought she had mentioned exorption but it sounds like maybe I misunderstood that .

 

[tucc185]

No argument with your vet, I would certainly take her advice. During antibiotic treatment absorption and utilization of probiotics would be very low anyways. I would however, consider starting up with a probiotic regimen immediately after the treatment is completed.

 

[OldChamKeeper]

Bene-bac. Look it up. <Goes back to his cave>

 

[Andee]

Ah yes I forgot about benebac, they make a small animals one which I usually use on new additions to my rodent family, because most breeders and pet stores only feed lab blocks, which is a horrible diet for most rodents. Though yes the lab blocks add the needed protein boost to their seed mixes, rodents need a huge variety in their diet and they will often pick and choose based on what their body needs. But I got carried away sorry XD I like talking all sorts of animals too much, benebac makes a very good product, especially the gel. I do recommend the gel form for reptiles, they have a recipe made specifically for birds and reptiles.

Edit: OCK you should come out more often <3 you can be so helpful

 

[Extensionofgreen]

Benebac is what I used years ago. I'm not crazy about the milk products and other fillers in it, but it may not be a problem for chameleons, in such small amounts.

The human supplements are vegetarian and safer, though they have a different number of some bacteria as well as ones not present in the Benebac, though the Benebac has some not found in the human supplements.

 

[Andee]

Idk, it really depends. We honestly don't know enough about reptilian gut flora to say what is safe and isnt.

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

No argument with your vet, I would certainly take her advice. During antibiotic treatment absorption and utilization of probiotics would be very low anyways. I would however, consider starting up with a probiotic regimen immediately after the treatment is completed.

Yes she's done with them . The vet recommended honey .

 

[Blang]

I use acidophilez from beautifuldragons.com

 

[tucc185]

Yes she's done with them . The vet recommended honey .

Honey? Did she mention what benefit would that have? I would be concerned about that kind of sugar intake at the very least.