Pros vs Cons of Spaying a Female Chameleon

[natzberg]

Hi there everyone. Lurker of the forums here. Still have my first chameleon, my female ambilobe Becky at 3.5years old.

She has been doing good until recently. She is due to lay eggs but having trouble this time. I can get into details if desired but long story short I had to take her to the vet and she has gotten some antibiotics, liquid calcium, and mild pain meds. We are hoping to get her healthy enough that she could possibly be spayed. My husbandry has been good, she just seems to have reproductive issues more often now.

My question to all the members here is, is it worth it to spay a 3.5 year old female chameleon? I know they live a lot less time in the wild, but doing a bunch of perusing through the forums saw jannb stating she had female chameleons live up to 7years. I also already saw she has had female chams spayed in the past and messaged her to ask more about specific details. But I wanted to pose the question to the larger community.

I understand that it will most likely be costly. Cost isn't a huge issue for me as I have enough credit. I just want to weigh the pros and cons for her quality and length of life before putting her through the procedure. I have read some people have had chams come out from the other end just fine but also read threads on other chams who don't.

Thanks in advance for the discussion.

 

[Camiezone]

Hey. I am a small private breeder, don't have much input regarding spaying the females. I just wanted to say that jannb's chameleon is a most unusual scenario. Female panthers usually only live 2-4 years. I personally don't think it would be a wise decision to spaying your girl now at this age, it can be difficult for her to get thru recovery. But as I said, i don't have experience w it. I do have contact w petr necas and I will ask him.

 

[Beman]

Where is she at with her current health? I know you said you are medicating but is that currently? What have her previous clutch numbers been like? This will tell you how many she will have in the clutch she is working on.

If she is not healthy as in strong enough then putting her through an extensive surgery IMO may not be worth it. As she may not be strong enough to make it through the surgery.

Some females can live longer but from what I have seen the last 5 years in the forum a female with even the best care and low clutch numbers seem to really only make it to that 3-4 year mark.

 

[natzberg]

Where is she at with her current health? I know you said you are medicating but is that currently? What have her previous clutch numbers been like? This will tell you how many she will have in the clutch she is working on.

If she is not healthy as in strong enough then putting her through an extensive surgery IMO may not be worth it. As she may not be strong enough to make it through the surgery.

Some females can live longer but from what I have seen the last 5 years in the forum a female with even the best care and low clutch numbers seem to really only make it to that 3-4 year mark.

She is currently eating + drinking, but she is either impacted or has eggs pushing on her organs. Her lower half is darker colored and she doesn't want to use her hind legs and tail as much though she still has movement. She had xrays and we confirmed it wasn't a break so mildly puzzling. She definitely has follicles but they aren't complete eggs yet. No bloodwork because the vet was unsure about taking her blood with how lethargic she was after the pain medicine.

All her previous clutches aside from her first have been less than or equal to about 20 eggs. I cannot guarantee I found every single egg since it's a potted plant in her enclosure and I don't uproot it every time; I just search for the eggs.

Yeah, I honestly found it kind of odd the vet suggested getting her spayed. I was braced for the possibility of her not returning from the vet despite her eating a silkworm this morning.

Honestly I'm definitely leaning towards not spaying her and just making her end-of-life quality the best it can be. I'll get her euthanized before she's in too much pain. I just wanted to ask here as well. Jann's long-lived chameleon(s) could have been other species.

Thanks both to replies so far!

 

[natzberg]

She is currently eating + drinking, but she is either impacted or has eggs pushing on her organs. Her lower half is darker colored and she doesn't want to use her hind legs and tail as much though she still has movement. She had xrays and we confirmed it wasn't a break so mildly puzzling. She definitely has follicles but they aren't complete eggs yet. No bloodwork because the vet was unsure about taking her blood with how lethargic she was after the pain medicine.

All her previous clutches aside from her first have been less than or equal to about 20 eggs. I cannot guarantee I found every single egg since it's a potted plant in her enclosure and I don't uproot it every time; I just search for the eggs.

Yeah, I honestly found it kind of odd the vet suggested getting her spayed. I was braced for the possibility of her not returning from the vet despite her eating a silkworm this morning.

Honestly I'm definitely leaning towards not spaying her and just making her end-of-life quality the best it can be. I'll get her euthanized before she's in too much pain. I just wanted to ask here as well. Jann's long-lived chameleon(s) could have been other species.

Thanks both to replies so far!

Obviously she's not 100%. But aside from dragging her back legs she is still eating and drinking.

Again, I'll make her as comfortable as I can. She's had a good life until now and I kind of expected egg issues to be the final issue!

 

[jannb]

Hello, I got your message but been really busy today. If you decide to spay her, I would do it now! Don’t wait until she’s weak. Make sure you have a really good vet that has successfully done this surgery before. If you don’t mind me asking, who is your vet? If she belonged to me, I’d try the surgery and she might give you a couple more years or even more. My girls normally do quite well after this surgery but I always had a really good reptile vet.

 

[Beman]

She is currently eating + drinking, but she is either impacted or has eggs pushing on her organs. Her lower half is darker colored and she doesn't want to use her hind legs and tail as much though she still has movement. She had xrays and we confirmed it wasn't a break so mildly puzzling. She definitely has follicles but they aren't complete eggs yet. No bloodwork because the vet was unsure about taking her blood with how lethargic she was after the pain medicine.

All her previous clutches aside from her first have been less than or equal to about 20 eggs. I cannot guarantee I found every single egg since it's a potted plant in her enclosure and I don't uproot it every time; I just search for the eggs.

Yeah, I honestly found it kind of odd the vet suggested getting her spayed. I was braced for the possibility of her not returning from the vet despite her eating a silkworm this morning.

Honestly I'm definitely leaning towards not spaying her and just making her end-of-life quality the best it can be. I'll get her euthanized before she's in too much pain. I just wanted to ask here as well. Jann's long-lived chameleon(s) could have been other species.

Thanks both to replies so far!

Ya know I think everyone will answer differently because it is based on what they would do for their cham... So my 2 cents for what it is worth.
I am a firm believer in quality of life. If they can not chameleon anymore then I do not want to see them have a half a** life. Now this is my opinion and how I am with all my animals. Beman is now over 5 years old. And when he gets to that point I will choose to give him a peaceful passing.

Now based on what your saying. The darkening is not a good sign. We see this when there is blood flow issues. Along with other things. They can go black when a vet pulls blood as well. Trauma to the area. If she has lost her strength in her back end my concern is would she be able to handle a surgery. The other thing I am seeing is the casque and cheeks are starting to cave in... We see this in dying chams and extremely ill chams. Now next issue is since the eggs are not fully developed with her current state your left with what I can see are two options. Getting her spayed or humane euthanasia.

Now I am not going to tell you not to try the spay route. Honestly I feel this is not my place to tell you what to do. Because she is yours and you know her best. You are with her and see her will to live. So I think you should follow your gut here and what your heart says. Then no matter what happens the choice was yours.

And of course if you need us here please feel free to stay in communication. This I know is hard on you and there are many people here that totally understand what you are going through.

 

[natzberg]

Hello, I got your message but been really busy today. If you decide to spay her, I would do it now! Don’t wait until she’s weak. Make sure you have a really good vet that has successfully done this surgery before. If you don’t mind me asking, who is your vet? If she belonged to me, I’d try the surgery and she might give you a couple more years or even more. My girls normally do quite well after this surgery but I always had a really good reptile vet.

Today I visited Pender Exotics though I have taken her to STAHL in the past. I live pretty close to both. They haven't done the surgery many times at Pender so if I did opt for it I'd probably call STAHL and see if their doctors have more experience.
We actually were waiting until she's just a bit stronger. She still has a good attitude despite how she is, but she was very lethargic due to the low dosage pain med she was given because initially I suspected it was a spinal issue. The vet said give her a few days or a week to see if she improves.
No worries on just getting my message now. I just figured I'd put out a post as well and not make you feel put on the spot too much. I just wanted some second opinions!

Ya know I think everyone will answer differently because it is based on what they would do for their cham... So my 2 cents for what it is worth.
I am a firm believer in quality of life. If they can not chameleon anymore then I do not want to see them have a half a** life. Now this is my opinion and how I am with all my animals. Beman is now over 5 years old. And when he gets to that point I will choose to give him a peaceful passing.

Now based on what your saying. The darkening is not a good sign. We see this when there is blood flow issues. Along with other things. They can go black when a vet pulls blood as well. Trauma to the area. If she has lost her strength in her back end my concern is would she be able to handle a surgery. The other thing I am seeing is the casque and cheeks are starting to cave in... We see this in dying chams and extremely ill chams. Now next issue is since the eggs are not fully developed with her current state your left with what I can see are two options. Getting her spayed or humane euthanasia.

Now I am not going to tell you not to try the spay route. Honestly I feel this is not my place to tell you what to do. Because she is yours and you know her best. You are with her and see her will to live. So I think you should follow your gut here and what your heart says. Then no matter what happens the choice was yours.

And of course if you need us here please feel free to stay in communication. This I know is hard on you and there are many people here that totally understand what you are going through.

Yeah, her casque has been more sunken lately even with feedings. Trying to balance making sure she eats with not overfeeding her. It's so tough since I've been mentally preparing for her to go downhill for most of this year since she hit 3 years old. I do what I can but you know, reptiles and their ability to hide problems until it's too late.

Also, yeah on the blood draw. I really mostly wanted an Xray to confirm or deny my suspicions and wanted to avoid a blood draw if possible.

I'll give her a couple more days since I got some additional liquid calcium plus a laxative in case it is her being backed up. She had a HUGE poop over the weekend and I think she could have more, so I'll try giving her another lukewarm shower tomorrow because that seems to entice her into pooping.

 

[jannb]

Scott Stahl is the best! He’s friend with my Florida vet and they author reptile medical books together. I have another friend with a reptile zoo in Florida and he shipped one of his very rare iguanas to Scott for the female surgery and she did great!

Also, she’s probably not going to get stronger, just weaker.

 

[natzberg]

Scott Stahl is the best! He’s friend with my Florida vet and they author reptile medical books together. I have another friend with a reptile zoo in Florida and he shipped one of his very rare iguanas to Scott for the female surgery and she did great!

Also, she’s probably not going to get stronger, just weaker.

I will see how she is doing tomorrow and see if I can call them. Again I am unsure of a costly and risky surgery given her age and how she currently is. Also probably having to pay a second time for exams and all that.

I know I can ask when I call, but do you know how much the spaying costs? Searching the forums said around $2k. I am not sure I can justify that depending on how she is.

 

[jannb]

Scott might charge more up north but my Florida vet usually run $900 to $1200 and I had pet insurance that covered most of it.

My best to you and your girl regardless of what you decide to do.

 

[natzberg]

What's weird is that now that she's asleep, she's much lighter in her back half.

Again I'll keep an eye on her. I'm going to go to bed since I'm starting to stress over this too much.

Thanks for all your advice everyone.

 

[Camiezone]

My best wishes to you both. I know how extremely painful it is to send them over the rainbow, I appreciate so much that her happiness is your priority. May the correct option of what to do, come to you soon. Speedy recovery to her if that is the chosen route.
We are all here for you!

 

[MissSkittles]

My heart breaks for you and your sweet girl to be in such a position. I can’t offer any input other than I pray whatever your choice is, you take prompt action.

 

[natzberg]

My heart breaks for you and your sweet girl to be in such a position. I can’t offer any input other than I pray whatever your choice is, you take prompt action.

She really is so sweet. When they were showing me how to do the injection, she didn't even open her mouth and hiss. She's definitely an incredibly trusting chameleon!!

So the Pender vet emailed me back and she has not done the surgery on a chameleon but has done it on bearded dragons and turtles before. Again, on one hand I don't necessarily want to put Becky through all this stress, but on the other hand if I have her go through the surgery could it help a younger chameleon in the future if this vet has more experience? Ugh. I am going to get a cost estimate. Still need to weigh my options.

And of course, when it rains, it pours. One of our cats has been throwing up a bunch last night and needs to go to the vet. I love my zoo but dang are they tiring!

 

[elizaann2]

She really is so sweet. When they were showing me how to do the injection, she didn't even open her mouth and hiss. She's definitely an incredibly trusting chameleon!!

So the Pender vet emailed me back and she has not done the surgery on a chameleon but has done it on bearded dragons and turtles before. Again, on one hand I don't necessarily want to put Becky through all this stress, but on the other hand if I have her go through the surgery could it help a younger chameleon in the future if this vet has more experience? Ugh. I am going to get a cost estimate. Still need to weigh my options.

And of course, when it rains, it pours. One of our cats has been throwing up a bunch last night and needs to go to the vet. I love my zoo but dang are they tiring!

I am so sorry to hear this. You are not alone, we are all here for you. Keep us updated on your beautiful sweet girl and what you decide for her. It is clear how much you love her. Sending you prayers and hugs

 

[natzberg]

@jannb this is the estimate I was just sent by Pender for the surgery. That is actually not too bad as I was expecting minimum $2k due to costs of things here in Fairfax county Does this seem reasonable? I don't have pet insurance but could definitely manage this on my credit card. Anyone else is free to comment as well.

I am going to continue to assess Becky's health. She ate a silkworm and 3 small/med dubias this morning dusted in calcium, so she's still got a fighting spirit. Seems unaffected from the antibiotics yesterday.

 

[Beman]

@jannb this is the estimate I was just sent by Pender for the surgery. That is actually not too bad as I was expecting minimum $2k due to costs of things here in Fairfax county Does this seem reasonable? I don't have pet insurance but could definitely manage this on my credit card. Anyone else is free to comment as well.

I am going to continue to assess Becky's health. She ate a silkworm and 3 small/med dubias this morning dusted in calcium, so she's still got a fighting spirit. Seems unaffected from the antibiotics yesterday.

1300-1500 seems pretty good to me. I mean I just paid 900 just to remove two baby teeth for my dog that would not fall out. And that was not even under full anesthesia. lol

I think you do have a very small window to do it though. You want to do it before she goes into full decline and stops eating.

 

[jannb]

Seems reasonable, but I personally would never let someone do this surgery if they have not done it successfully on chameleons several times before. In her condition, if you opt for surgery, you need the best specialist you can get.

 

[Camiezone]

Seems reasonable, but I personally would never let someone do this surgery if they have not done it successfully on chameleons several times before. In her condition, if you opt for surgery, you need the best specialist you can get.

I agree with jannb. Unless you have decided to let her pass over the rainbow. And the vet should fo it for max 1/2 that price since it's a huge learning curve for her/him. That's just my 2 cents. Good luck with your decision. How is she today?