Question for Opinions

[Rickky]

:I just wanted to see wat you guys thought on the topic of line breeding chameleons...Do you think that line breeding enhances color or do you guys think that they shoud be from complete different backgrounds to create the best color quality...Drop your opinions please and thank you....

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

I am totally against line breeding but I do feel it may enhance colors and possibly brings out some different colors that are not normal for that locale. I feel it will create problems down the line just like how purebred dogs have health issues.

-chris

 

[kenya]

I personally don't think that linebreeding is ethical. There are so many wonderful individuals (especially of panthers) that can have the same color type (ie red bar, yellow body) that if you keep track of where you male and female come from (and their parents color types) that there is no need to create a genetic bottleneck by breeding related individuals. Some people argue that populations in areas of Madagascar (such as Nosy Be or other island locales) are already inbred since they all live in that area and can't escape each other, but I think that is a faulty argument. Why would you want to breed related individuals and create weak genetics when there are so many healthy unrelated chams out there?

Some major breeders do a lot of heavy linebreeding. I am not buying from those breeders in the future- they may have very nice looking animals but I think that the genetics are compromised.

Just my opinion.

 

[Dsignrguy]

with so many offspring from a single male/female, sold to so many different people, I don't see how anyone can be 100% sure they're not inbreeding somewhere down the line....unless they are using WC, or F1 animals....but then you have all the offspring you sold that end up god knows where, and eventually that line will be inbred(unintentionally....but then, I'll bet this same thing happens in nature alot)...I think its almost unavoidable to a some extent.

 

[Rickky]

Thanks for your thoughts...if any body elsewould like to contribute feel free...

 

[JoshCrane1]

on the posistive side of imbreeding, i would love to see a chameleon with two heads, or two tails, or a double tongue would be cool, maybe a cham with an arm growing out of its forehead; that would be something to see......lol

 

[Rickky]

That would be pretty cool to have a chameleon with two heads...lol...It was mentioned above about line breeding creating colors not found in a locale...wat colors would appear and how...

 

[Rocky]

at the petstore here in town someone brought in a two headed water mocasin that was found at the lake =O

 

[Rickky]

thats really cool...ive seen some two headed animals before jus not a chameleon

 

[Rocky]

what was funny was that they brought the snake in for someone to tell them what kind of snake it was... and they had it in an open bucket. I'm not sure how they caught it, but it was lively and they fed it a mouse and you could tell one head was dominant and eating while the other was still looking around etc.

REALLLY weird!

they were really lucky they didn't get bit because Water moccasins(cotton mouths)(copper head) whatever you want to call it is very venomous >.<

 

[kenya]

with so many offspring from a single male/female, sold to so many different people, I don't see how anyone can be 100% sure they're not inbreeding somewhere down the line....unless they are using WC, or F1 animals....but then you have all the offspring you sold that end up god knows where, and eventually that line will be inbred(unintentionally....but then, I'll bet this same thing happens in nature alot)...I think its almost unavoidable to a some extent.

This is true but it is not as close as breeders will linebreed. Breeders who linebreed will breed sibling to sibling, parent to offspring, grandparent to grandoffspring, uncle to niece and so on. It is very close relations and if you think about it, it has to be because they have these chams and they have a very short breeding life (a year and a half or so?) so anything beyond parent to offspring may be pushing it and I would assume that the male will be the elder.

Good breeders keep good records and know where their animals come from. They make a point to make it public knowledge and you should always ask them about a specific animal and it's background if you are interested in buying it for breeding. I think that once the animals are second cousins or farther, then it is a moot point and not really inbreeding at that point. Linebreeding denotes a more direct relation and once you get past a certain point, two individuals, though their ancestry may come back to one cham, will barely have any genetic material in common- it all dilutes by half over each generation so it barely takes time for each animal to only have say 5% lineage of the common ancestor. I would not consider this linebreeding.

Does that make sense?

 

[kenya]

on the posistive side of imbreeding, i would love to see a chameleon with two heads, or two tails, or a double tongue would be cool, maybe a cham with an arm growing out of its forehead; that would be something to see......lol

This is so improbable. This would not be a result of inbreeding but rather a rare pair of conjoined twins. This animal would most very likely not even hatch out of the egg or even develop past a certain point (there is only so much room in there, you know)

 

[JoshCrane1]

This is so improbable. This would not be a result of inbreeding but rather a rare pair of conjoined twins. This animal would most very likely not even hatch out of the egg or even develop past a certain point (there is only so much room in there, you know)

lol....i was just joking...but thanks for the thought.

 

[kenya]

lol....just joking...but thanks for the thought.

This is why you may want to consider dissecting eggs that fail. You never know WHY they failed. Also....post pics.

Edit: I am a biology nerd, what can I say?

 

[MesophillicChik]

with so many offspring from a single male/female, sold to so many different people, I don't see how anyone can be 100% sure they're not inbreeding somewhere down the line....unless they are using WC, or F1 animals....but then you have all the offspring you sold that end up god knows where, and eventually that line will be inbred(unintentionally....but then, I'll bet this same thing happens in nature alot)...I think its almost unavoidable to a some extent.

I also think it's difficult, but not impossible, to avoid line breeding. I think that with import quotas it will be even more difficult. I don't think that it is as common in nature as people assume, though. With a limited gene pool here in America, yes, it's going to be difficult.

I don't think that there are direct consequences to linebreeding (daughter to father) as one would see with straight inbreeding (brother to sister) but just as the colors or outward phenotypes are intensified, any internal problems, like maybe a tendency towards a metabolic disorder would also be intensified. It's something to consider and keep in mind. I would suggest always asking your breeder as much as possible. And like with job applications, I would ask the same questions multiple times to ensure honesty. I think for pet purposes (not breeding) it won't matter too much to know all of that, but if you plan to breed in the future, you would want to know as much as possible.

 

[ConcertPhotog]

I was wondering is there a more dominant gene for the colors in a Chameleon? Or would a baby male basically look like a 50% blend of the father and half of what a male sibling of the mother looks like? Or does it lean to either side more than the other?

 

[MesophillicChik]

I feel like with panthers, the colors develop slowly, one basic group at a time. I feel like reds are more dominant though... sort of like brunettes in people. I'd be curious to see what others say to this question, if they all see that same pattern in their panthers...

 

[Rickky]

I also agree that the reds develop a lot faster than any others...

 

[Rickky]

Thanks guys for the input again...

 

[Dsignrguy]

This is true but it is not as close as breeders will linebreed. Breeders who linebreed will breed sibling to sibling, parent to offspring, grandparent to grandoffspring, uncle to niece and so on. It is very close relations and if you think about it, it has to be because they have these chams and they have a very short breeding life (a year and a half or so?) so anything beyond parent to offspring may be pushing it and I would assume that the male will be the elder.

Good breeders keep good records and know where their animals come from. They make a point to make it public knowledge and you should always ask them about a specific animal and it's background if you are interested in buying it for breeding. I think that once the animals are second cousins or farther, then it is a moot point and not really inbreeding at that point. Linebreeding denotes a more direct relation and once you get past a certain point, two individuals, though their ancestry may come back to one cham, will barely have any genetic material in common- it all dilutes by half over each generation so it barely takes time for each animal to only have say 5% lineage of the common ancestor. I would not consider this linebreeding.

Does that make sense?

yup. and you kinda answered a question I had but didn't ask: how far removed do they need to be from each other until it "safe"?(generation wise)
Thanks.