Rare Chameleons from Madagascar available in 2013

[Chameleopatrick]

It's exciting to see rare species coming available, however the draw back is they will be sold to anyone willing to pay the price, regardless if the consumer knows what they are doing.

As far as C. Parsonii, they are way overrated IMHO. While they are massive, there are many other more colorful and active species. To each his own.

Olaf has sure been around a long time. Glad to hear he's still in the game.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

So you really think there are farmed parsons in maddie even thou the have been ban from leaving the country since 95' Go ahead and post a link to this info. I bet it's a picture of your butt

Obviously there are a lot of things you are not aware of and my pants are on.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I'm pretty sure I have the same COPY that you have.

You have not got the same CITES permits as me. I'm certain of that.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Should we be cheering that all of the wild populations for these are now stable enough to allow for exports? Apparently EU biologists still disagree?

I don't like the fact that any idiot with a few bucks will be able to grab one of these.

I highly doubt someone knows enough about these populations to claim they are stable enough for collection. IMHO I bet they ended up with quotas for much less "noble" reasons. But, I'm certainly not updated on population research there. Maybe they were considering how much stabilized habitat these species still have available or that they are showing up in degraded habitats once someone actually starts looking for them.

The quotas are a good thing if they represent an increased stability in habitat / population.
They are bad if they represent financial backing from wealthy enthusiasts, which I for one suspect.

heartfelt ditto

Im a bit more saddened than excited by this news

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

The quotas are a good thing if they represent an increased stability in habitat / population.

They are bad if they represent financial backing from wealthy enthusiasts, which I for one suspect.

I for one am going to keep a chameleon group for my hobby. However I am absolutely going to give back and contribute to conservation groups that continue to conserve forests and wildlife in Madagascar. I'm looking for groups that have been proven to be productive with their efforts.

 

[DanSB]

The quotas are a good thing if they represent an increased stability in habitat / population.

They are bad if they represent financial backing from wealthy enthusiasts, which I for one suspect./QUOTE]

I for one am going to keep a chameleon group for my hobby. However I am absolutely going to give back and contribute to conservation groups that continue to conserve forests and wildlife in Madagascar. I'm looking for ones that have been proven to be productive with their efforts.

I'm not really making a judgment. If I am financially able I will happily purchase and attempt to breed any number of these species. I was more or less calling what I saw.

You see, I don't believe most of these species have another century on this planet and limited collection for the pet industry isn't what will be the downfall. You can't degrade an animals habitat mercilessly then blame collection for the downfall. I personally think every development or farm site should be open to exotic animal collectors for a week before breaking ground.

It has been over 10 years since I closely followed international animal trade laws but they seem just as ineffective and stupid as they were 10 years ago. The "war on drugs" model is not effective. How much more do we need to lose before the lunatics making the laws realize this?

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I'm not really making a judgment. If I am financially able I will happily purchase and attempt to breed any number of these species. I was more or less calling what I saw.

You see, I don't believe most of these species have another century on this planet and limited collection for the pet industry isn't what will be the downfall. You can't degrade an animals habitat mercilessly then blame collection for the downfall. I personally think every development or farm site should be open to exotic animal collectors for a week before breaking ground.

It has been over 10 years since I closely followed international animal trade laws but they seem just as ineffective and stupid as they were 10 years ago. The "war on drugs" model is not effective. How much more do we need to lose before the lunatics making the laws realize this?

I seem to have got one of the more optimistic approaches to how the wildlife trade industry is. Or at least Madagascar chameleons I think with there adaptability of many of the species they have got a chance to be conserved long term in pristine, degraded, or restored habitat. When it comes down to it in the end though if you want your species around for ecotourism, picture and video or ect.. you have got to protect the species habitat. Trade can be stopped or suspended however if there habitat is gone the species is for the most part gone.

 

[Todnedo]

You have not got the same CITES permits as me. I'm certain of that.

When the animals enter the country there is only one cites document for the shipment the US fish and wildlife keeps the original, everyone else gets a copy.
Your not the only one that has animals from that shipment and copy's of the cites.

 

[DanSB]

I seem to have got one of the more optimistic approaches to how the wildlife trade industry is. Or at least Madagascar chameleons I think with there adaptability of many of the species they have got a chance to be conserved long term in pristine, degraded, or restored habitat. When it comes down to it in the end though if you want your species around for ecotourism, picture and video or ect.. you have got to protect the species habitat. Trade can be stopped or suspended however if there habitat is gone the species is for the most part gone.

There is nothing wrong with being an optimist. If long term conservation can be accomplished it will come in the form of a thriving eco tourism and exotics farming / ranching for the pet industry. That along with a global effort to educate and train the human population on sustainable agriculture, wildlife management, and other ways to keep the people out of abject poverty while maintaining their unique natural resources.

Our first world post industrial mind sets simply don't matter to a population concerned about starving or losing a child to dysentery. For now, 100 acres of Caluma habitat is more valuable as a farm or for timber than it is as a habitat...

 

[Chris Anderson]

From a conservation or hobbyist perspective, I'm not sure yet what to think of these supposed new quotas (should they actually be implemented). First of all, I suspect many of these species could withstand managed collection and export, and I would welcome quotas based on scientific evaluation of non-detrimental impacts of such quotas (as was done for F. campani). My concern, however, is a return to old practices where this is once again not the basis of these quotas and they are ultimately either added back to the suspended list, or the chameleon species themselves suffer.

For background, the removal of these species from the suspended list stemmed from a CITES Standing Committee decision to withdraw its recommendation to Parties to suspend trade in these species, pending approval by the CITES Animals Committee of conservative annual export quotas established by Madagascar (SC61 Summary Record, 2011). A species-by-species review by the Animals Committee endorsed a zero quota for each of these species that was proposed by Madagascar, which the CITES Secretariat and Chair of the Animals Committee indicated "demonstrated that compliance with Article IV, paragraph 2 (a) and 3 will be achieved" (link to Article IV: http://www.cites.org/eng/disc/text.php#IV), and the Standing Committee consequently withdrew its suspension recommendation (Notification No. 2012/057, 2012). Basically, the Standing Committee charged the Animals Committee with approving a conservative annual export quota for these species, to which Madagascar proposed a zero quota (except for F. campani, for which studies had been done supporting a quota of 250), which the Animals Committee approved, and the Standing Committee thus removed these species from the suspended list because the conservative quota of zero showed that Madagascar's Scientific Authority would issue quotas that will not be detrimental to the survival of that species.

Fast forward a year, and now Madagascar is supposedly going to increase these quotas for 14 species and by as much as 6000+ individuals. If true, that raises considerable concern for me that Madagascar may have proposed a zero quota for these species to avoid scrutiny from the Animals Committee (which was charged with approving conservative annual export quotas) so that the suspension would be lifted, only to impose higher quotas a year later, which may or may not be based on any studies or assessments. To that end, I have yet to hear that any such studies or assessments for these species have been conducted (I'm aware of ongoing efforts with another species not on that list, but none of these). To me this raises red flags of returning to old practices that are not necessarily in the interest of the animals themselves or the long term trade in these species.

Now should these new quotas actually be implemented, I'd love to be proved wrong and find that such studies/assessments were made, but so far from what I've been able to gather, that doesn't seem to be the case. Of course the other side of the coin is that these new quotas are not yet official and we may find that it does not happen. As I said, I genuinely believe that sustainable harvest of a number of these species is possible and I am not opposed to quotas for any of these species that proper assessments support non-detrimental effects on the species. I simply have concerns and doubts at this point about any process that may have taken place to reach these supposed new quotas. Time will tell, I guess.

Chris

 

[CarlC]

Chris I have a question for you about species assessments. Are seasonal variations in species populations taken into account during assessments? We both know that at certain times of the year some species are very abundant and easier to find while at other times of the year populations have crashed for natural or human caused reasons.

Carl

 

[Chris Anderson]

Chris I have a question for you about species assessments. Are seasonal variations in species populations taken into account during assessments? We both know that at certain times of the year some species are very abundant and easier to find while at other times of the year populations have crashed for natural or human caused reasons.

Carl

Hi Carl,

Definitely true, particularly for extreme species like F. labordi that have large seasonal population fluctuations. For some other species, it may not be as large of a swing, and may not impact assessments very much. A thorough assessment definitely should take this type of seasonal variation into account. Whether all do, I don't know.

Chris

 

[sandrachameleon]

edited just for repost length, not because the missing text isn't entirely worth reading

From a conservation or hobbyist perspective, I'm not sure yet what to think of these supposed new quotas (should they actually be implemented). ......Fast forward a year, and now Madagascar is supposedly going to increase these quotas for 14 species and by as much as 6000+ individuals. If true, that raises considerable concern for me that Madagascar may have proposed a zero quota for these species to avoid scrutiny from the Animals Committee (which was charged with approving conservative annual export quotas) so that the suspension would be lifted, only to impose higher quotas a year later, which may or may not be based on any studies or assessments. ....... I'd love to be proved wrong and find that such studies/assessments were made, but so far from what I've been able to gather, that doesn't seem to be the case. Of course the other side of the coin is that these new quotas are not yet official and we may find that it does not happen. As I said, I genuinely believe that sustainable harvest of a number of these species is possible and I am not opposed to quotas for any of these species that proper assessments support non-detrimental effects on the species. I simply have concerns and doubts at this point about any process that may have taken place to reach these supposed new quotas. Time will tell, I guess.

well stated Chris Anderson
I agree with your view

 

[leedragon]

is it something someone can do for reconsideration? maybe something like the collecting it was on a couple of months ago for the protection of some species?

 

[Sargentstickytounge]

Well is there a list of these rare chameleons that are gonna be coming in for sale

 

[Sargentstickytounge]

Also can someone try to explain the whole quota thing a little simpler it's kinda confusing

 

[DanSB]

Well is there a list of these rare chameleons that are gonna be coming in for sale

Also can someone try to explain the whole quota thing a little simpler it's kinda confusing

See the first post on this thread for a list.

We are discussing Cites quotas. A decent and simple overview can be found on the Wiki page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CITES

 

[coldbloodedAL]

Anyone heard anything new on this?

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Anyone heard anything new on this?

No! I have been checking with CITES since 1/1/2014 to check to if they have updated the quotas with the new 15 species and they have not yet. If they post changed quotas I am going to post.

 

[kameleons jvo]

Just had a long talk with Olaf Pronk,the new proposed quota's are send to the CITES commission,all species listed as endangered or critically endangered are refused so no minors,globifers ect.
Other species need to pass a special commission so its not sure if 1 specie of the new quota's will be approved