Rare Panther locales?

Dankmeleon

Dankmeleon

New Member
my question to you is why aren't the top notch breeders setting up breeding programs with multiples females on some of these crazy locales such as tamatave, nosy faly nosy mitsio etc etc i mean i'm sure they are but you'd think by now multiple breeders would be working on this in a big way, you hardly ever see any of these rare locales up for sale and when you do they are usually wild caught.

I'm not saying they should do this to lower the price or demand, I'm just saying for their own stock how come they aren't trying to breed a lot more of these types of rare panthers because their is so much market for them and they are worht more?

are they really that much harder to breed than say an ambilobe?
 
The only rare chameleon you mentioned is the blue Nosy faly. The rest you can find I had over 40 mitsio last year and so did other breeders. I have a feeling will be seeing Blue faly some time this year. You have to buy them before they are all gone you cant procrastinate.
 
so I then return to my original question.

they are over priced because they are hard to find, someone responded that most of the chams i listed weren't rare, maybe not, but in comparison to ambilobe yes.

i still don't understand why people aren't breeding them like ambilobes then, are we still early in the game?
 
Dankmeleon said:
so I then return to my original question.

they are over priced because they are hard to find, someone responded that most of the chams i listed weren't rare, maybe not, but in comparison to ambilobe yes.

i still don't understand why people aren't breeding them like ambilobes then, are we still early in the game?
Click to expand...

I think it's hard to explain, and maybe a bit more complex.

A few thoughts. Keep in mind I haven't hatched a thing yet. So, this is just an "out there" rare rant from me LOL. (see, I never, NEVER use terms like LOL, and I don't normally rant, either, so bear with me.:p)

Breeding chams isn't as simple as some think. It's not just "can I get them to breed", and then "can I get them to successfully lay eggs" and then "can I get the eggs to successfully hatch". There's more to it.

I don't mean to offend, but these breeders aren't running puppy mills. At least, not the ones on this forum, as far as I can tell. It takes MANY MANY hours of careful considerate work to raise and care for these creatures. They ARE exotic animals. We have over 20 adults now, and I don't lose sight of the fact that these are exotic animals that require thoughtful attentive care. And it's not all success stories, either. And, after a breeder has raised, bred, hatched, and then cared for a delicate animal like this for 2 months, they're not too eager to send them off to just anybody.

It's hard to describe. The few breeders I've met in person (that were related to this forum) expressed a respect and admiration for their chams. And, a sort of awe. Breeding was begun in small steps, and sales were not the highest priority.

Keeping prices a little high helps to weed out the buyers who would love to have one but can't really afford to keep one. It costs a lot of money to care for these critters. And they do need vet care, too. If a person can hardly afford to purchase the animal, how will they afford to keep it healthy and happy? The exotic vets we use say that caring for chameleons is an art, not a science. That there aren't really enough hard facts nor enough scientific studies performed yet, to make dealing with chameleons "cut and dried".

And, also, keep in mind that the good breeders, importers themselves invest a LOT of time and money in raising these chameleons. Raising the CB, or procuring/acclimating/establishing the WC. In business that's called "added value", and it justifies a raise in prices.

How rare is paint? How long does it take an artist to paint a watercolor? Not a great length of time. Why are the better watercolors so expensive? Because, even though it's just common paint, paper, and water- it's still takes uncommon skill and artistry. I can't really explain it- but there seems to be a lot of skill and artistry involved in a good breeding program. On the face of it- it seems like it should just be a matter of a couple of chams humping it on a branch somewhere and producing offspring- but, when you get them in these captive environments, it's not.

Then again, I may just be way out in left field. Perhaps chameleons in general, and pardalis specifically, are like diamonds- not as rare as the industry would like you to think- and with prices artificially controlled. But, I don't really think so.

There. That really clears things up, doesn't it? :eek:
 
what your saying def has merit but it still doesn't explain why everyone breeds ambilobes

I'm not knocking them i love them, i'm just very confused as to why there isn't a shift or motivation towards producing an equal ratio of some of these rare locales, esp because there is very high demand even at the astronomical prices.

it just doesn't make any sense to me that someone could spend the same time in an ambilobe breeding program as a nosy faly program and get far more reward for the same amount of work, i guess the females aren't very easy to come by/identify
 
Dankmeleon said:
what your saying def has merit but it still doesn't explain why everyone breeds ambilobes

I'm not knocking them i love them, i'm just very confused as to why there isn't a shift or motivation towards producing an equal ratio of some of these rare locales, esp because there is very high demand even at the astronomical prices.

it just doesn't make any sense to me that someone could spend the same time in an ambilobe breeding program as a nosy faly program and get far more reward for the same amount of work, i guess the females aren't very easy to come by/identify
Click to expand...

I think there probably has been a shift. You're just not seeing the results yet. It takes time.
 
Consider this:
I worked at a tropical fish store, there was a colt coral ( very drab, common and small) priced at $30 dollars, well no one bought the coral and it stayed in the reef tank for two months with no interest from anyone. The owner changed the price to $150, and it sold that day..................................


its all supply, its the same in any exotic trade.
I think the trade is growing, and the number of animals offered will grow in turn.

Nothing is as rare as someone selling claims, never!

WC panthers are priced high as well.
 
These chameleons didn't come cheap to the breeders either. I know for a fact that the rarer chameleons come with a heavy price tag especially for a pair. And you do take a chance that things are going to work out with that pair. Also it takes alot of time and money to keep and raise quality animals. To say that they are overpriced is not fair considering a gallon of gas is quickly approaching 4.00 and not to mention various other products that cost alot.
As for why we don't see more of the rarer locales is because they were not available until recently and now the offspring of these animals are becoming more available which will bring the price down a little. Its the same old story supply and demand, If theres alot of supply the price lowers if theres no supply the price goes up.
 
The locales tend to go through waves. Basically importers learned that they could sell their Ambilobes quicker than other east coast locale chameleons and it trickled down all the way to the gathers. So in the last couple years many breeders have been able to find more ambilobes, ambanjas, and nosys. Many exporters would focus in the locales that sold. Some years ago many importers were getting a mirage of different locales...Maroantsetras, Nosy Boraha, etc....But now it is a bit different and this is why I feel that you are seeing more ambilobes, nosy bes, and ambanja from breeders right now.

-chris

-chris
 
I spent many years keeping and breeding panthers before any Picasso/Soabana/Ambilobe panthers were imported here. For several years, they were the rare, highly sought morph. I think what we're seeing now is just supply and demand. I've noticed that many of the major commercial breeders are focusing totally on panthers of northwest Madagascar origin with east coast locales few and far between, and I imagine it reflects what they have the most success selling (timeliness and profit.) Multiple shipments of east coast panthers came in this season but who purchased them and will they be bred? Prior to Ambilobe-type's becoming available, the cream of the panther crop was the all blue morph which has since been displaced by the former as shown in the site poll here. Supply and demand. More people want Ambilobe-types, more Ambilobe-types get produced.

As to panthers being overpriced, I'm gonna have to disagree. The demand for that species is still very high but the days of being able to find a wild-caught in your local pet shop are, for the most part, gone. Less and less of the 2000 per year quota are finding their way to the US. For example, I'm pretty sure LLLReptile never offered any wc panthers this year. That's unheard of! I also have a local store that for the last 15 years has always had wc panthers, but same thing, none this year. The fact that less wc blood is coming in now will also affect the number of ch and cb babies made available. For the time being, I don't see the price of panthers coming down unless changes are made in regards to how many wc's are made available to the US.
 
The price of panthers will stay high as long as fenatics are willing to pay...Look at the adds on kingsnake. if they were priced right they wouldnt need to relist the same animal for more than a month. But you can always add a caption like "stunning", "amazing" or "just begining to color up" to get someone to pay the unjustified amount.
IMO, the new locals are similar to ones already plentiful. Yellow with red bars, yellow. Blue with red(weren't people trying to breed that out of Nosy Be's).

Just my opinion though. Some of the new locals are really good looking!
 
Dean Pulcini said:
These chameleons didn't come cheap to the breeders either. I know for a fact that the rarer chameleons come with a heavy price tag especially for a pair. And you do take a chance that things are going to work out with that pair. Also it takes alot of time and money to keep and raise quality animals. To say that they are overpriced is not fair considering a gallon of gas is quickly approaching 4.00 and not to mention various other products that cost alot.
As for why we don't see more of the rarer locales is because they were not available until recently and now the offspring of these animals are becoming more available which will bring the price down a little. Its the same old story supply and demand, If theres alot of supply the price lowers if theres no supply the price goes up.
Click to expand...

Dean is right, IMPORTS are not cheap to begin with. Add that to the fact that many imports don't make it, and that doubles the original price to the breeder. Say breeder X buys 10 imports directly for 250 each. 4 die. His price just went up to from 250 a panther to 420 a panther. This causes the breeder to barely break even, or in many cases lose money. But the goal was to get new blood, so in the end it works out if you can get new babies.

As far as the other locales you have to remember, once you start seeing the WC for sale, it will be at least a year until there are offspring. by the end of this year you should see babies available from all of the more "rare" locales you speak of.

And, as Dean says, gas prices and other costs alone are getting ridiculous. Panther prices are justified, plain and simple.
 
Then why aren't the prices of other species justified? It costs just as much to raise a calyptratus as a pardalis they are raised in almost the same numbers annually, yet there is a huge price discrepancy.

How 'bout the species that rarely get bred in captivity.The retail prices of those are less than that of a proper UVB light.

Why are we propagating the disposable pet syndrome? Why is there not "perceived value" with other species? I don't get it.

Trace

Again, before I get a few snarky phone calls and PM's, my rant is not directed to against any breeders or dealers.
 
Trace said:
Then why aren't the prices of other species justified? It costs just as much to raise a calyptratus as a pardalis they are raised in almost the same numbers annually, yet there is a huge price discrepancy.
Click to expand...

Do you know of any breeders who produce 300-400 pardalis per month like veileds? Baby veileds are sold in not only every specialist store but pretty much every Petco, Petsmart, etc across North America, not pardalis. I don't think the numbers produced are even close to each other annually.
 
Well the best way to do this is to go and attempt to locate the animals
(risk the miss ID on the female) and breed them yourself.

just see what happens... all the risks, the time, the energy, the diseases
everything that can and does go wrong with wild animals.

and then... try to raise new hatchlings... watch some of them die in your hands
only to sell and ship them for a hundred bucks.
I don't think that many people are going to be interested
in your mixed rare locals vs clean line animals

and even then...
who's to say that they'll be good looking specimen for the local.
the pair you got may be total ugly dogs for that local
and not the priced breeders you'll see online.
so many things to deal with.
it's not "easy" it's a challenge totally unlike breeding dog and cats from the neighborhood

I figure it'll take you about... oh,... two to three years or so
using much of your time and energy before your first successful hatch
barring any major problems... like one of your rare breeders dying on you.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

birdieelizabeth
Am I really not ready for a panther chameleon?
Replies
15
Views
878
Lindasjackson
L
dommer94
Introduction to the community
2
Replies
25
Views
1K
MissSkittles
MissSkittles
landro
Environmental Parameters needed for male Ambilobe panther to develop fully automated environmental control system - prototype v1 stage
Replies
4
Views
397
landro
landro
B
Considering a breeding project
Replies
14
Views
1K
Shauna_T
Shauna_T
Tnest
Baby panther chameleon eyes closed while close to heat bulb
2
Replies
21
Views
2K
Tnest
Tnest
Back
Top Bottom