Rear leg disorientation

[JaxyGirl]

A vet visit would probably be a good idea so he can figure out exactly what is wrong and if needed give your Cham a calcium injection or vitamins to help your Cham regain his strength.

 

[JaxyGirl]

My flat is normally quite cold during the day as I'm out at work with the heating off, so it's just to ensure he doesn't get cold. I'll definitely move him to the larger viv, once he starts improving though of course

That makes sense. Just as long as the lower level of his cage is around 70 and not higher. If so you should remove it.

 

[CamaroCorvette]

Oversupplimenting with D3 can definitely cause MBD type symptoms. Lack of calcium in ther diet and also vitamin A deficiency can all have similar symptoms.
All of the above is usually a result of diet due to not feeding your feeders a healthy diet and not supplimenting correctly.
The correct lighting is very important. What did you say you were using for a UVB light? A full spectrum light..as far as I know..but correct me if I'm wrong...does not emit UVB which is so important for a Cham to develop D3 which aids in the obsorption of calcium into the bones.

I've just checked, it does emit UVB, but not in as higher doses as some bulbs, I'll change that ASAP

 

[CamaroCorvette]

Oversupplimenting with D3 can definitely cause MBD type symptoms. Lack of calcium in ther diet and also vitamin A deficiency can all have similar symptoms.
All of the above is usually a result of diet due to not feeding your feeders a healthy diet and not supplimenting correctly.
The correct lighting is very important. What did you say you were using for a UVB light? A full spectrum light..as far as I know..but correct me if I'm wrong...does not emit UVB which is so important for a Cham to develop D3 which aids in the obsorption of calcium into the bones.

The bulb I'm using does emit UVB, I've just checked to make sure. It isn't as high as the ones designed for desert species though, so should I switch to one of those instead do you think?

 

[JaxyGirl]

I've just checked, it does emit UVB, but not in as higher doses as some bulbs, I'll change that ASAP

That could be the main reason why your Cham is having problems due to the fact that he hadn't been able to metabolize calcium which is important to bone growth. One of the main causes of MBD You need a 5.0 UVB light. Most people use a tube style like this one.
Zoo Med 15" Repti Sun 5.0 UVB bulb

The gold standard of ultra-violet lighting. Used and recommended by zoos and breeders all over the world. These bulbs work well for providing necessary UVB rays to most diurnal reptiles. Available in a wide range of sizes that fit into any of our standard fluorescent fixtures. Ideal for applications when ultra-violet illumination is desired without heat as a by-product.

 

[JaxyGirl]

The bulb I'm using does emit UVB, I've just checked to make sure. It isn't as high as the ones designed for desert species though, so should I switch to one of those instead do you think?

The Desert species bulbs such as a 10.0 UVB is too strong for a chameleon.
You definitely want a 5.0 UVB max.

 

[CamaroCorvette]

I will get that as soon as possible then, thank you for so much of your time

 

[JaxyGirl]

My pleasure glad I could help. Best of luck with your little guy.
As I said a vet visit might be a good idea. A calcium injection if recommended could really make a difference in his recovery.
Feel free to PM me anytime if you have any more questions

 

[MelissaB]

Actually, as long as there are areas to get out of the UVB, the 10.0 would be fine. I use the Reptisun T5 10.0 on both of my panthers, and have never had an issue. A lot of folks also use Arcadia 12%.

 

[CamaroCorvette]

Thank you so much, think we've sorted it. it's a 2.0 output not 5.0.... So annoyed, like I said it came with the set up and said it was suitable for ALL REPTILES! I should've checked. Hopefully I'm not too late. I can't thank you enough for your quick response

 

[JaxyGirl]

Actually, as long as there are areas to get out of the UVB, the 10.0 would be fine. I use the Reptisun T5 10.0 on both of my panthers, and have never had an issue. A lot of folks also use Arcadia 12%.

I absolutely agree with you. I actually free range my male panther full time and his range is about 9 feet long so I use three 10.0 compacts that are attached to track lights on the ceiling to make sure he gets enough UVB because some of his branches are a little further away and he moves around a lot. He also has two basking spots one has a 100Watt bulb and the other has a 75 Watt bulb.

On the other hand My Female Panther is in a 48" reptibreeze and I use a 5.0 fluorescent tube because her basking spot is closer to the light and her space is smaller. There is a ton of vegetation in her cage but she spends most of her time up top and not much time in her plants so I felt that a 10.0 would be too strong for her. And she didn't do well with a compact as it seemed to bright for her eyes.

All chams are different and some seem to do well with a compact and others better with a tube. Depending on the situation you can use a 5.0 or 10.0 UVB
So in reality the lighting depends on the size of the enclosure. The Cham and the chams habitat.

There are always exceptions to the rule, but it seems like most chams do well with a 5.0 UVB and it's probably the less complicated way to go for someone just starting out with a Cham or is not as experienced as other keepers.

 

[kinyonga]

Is there D3 in the supplements? Is the light a UVB light??
Looks like it could be the beginning of MBD but it's hard to be sure. A vet could run some tests and get him started on calcium if need be.

 

[jajeanpierre]

The Desert species bulbs such as a 10.0 UVB is too strong for a chameleon.
You definitely want a 5.0 UVB max.

That's not correct. A 10.0 UVB light is weak compared to the sun. Have you ever put a light meter under one? Even a brand new 12% Arcadia does not compare to the sun.

Arcadia lights are much superior to any Reptisun. I use 12% Arcadia except in the 18" tall baby cages that use a 6%.

 

[Benhopkins8]

10.00 uvb is not to strong at all the that's nonsense and 30 mins in the sun is the equivalent of 12 hours under t8 10.00 uvb so imagine how strong the sun is try gutloading rather than supplementing a high calcium gutload try spirulina sesame seed dried dandilion ect all have calcium do some research on gutloading

 

[Cheeky]

10.00 uvb is not to strong at all the that's nonsense and 30 mins in the sun is the equivalent of 12 hours under t8 10.00 uvb so imagine how strong the sun is try gutloading rather than supplementing a high calcium gutload try spirulina sesame seed dried dandilion ect all have calcium do some research on gutloading

That isnt a true comparison as the UV produced by the sun and UV bulbs is not the same, they have different proportions of the UV spectrum in different strengths. So while the UVB may be only a small dose compared to natural daylight, the other parts of the spectrum can be too strong for our chams at close distances.

 

[Benhopkins8]

That isnt a true comparison as the UV produced by the sun and UV bulbs is not the same, they have different proportions of the UV spectrum in different strengths. So while the UVB may be only a small dose compared to natural daylight, the other parts of the spectrum can be too strong for our chams at close distances.

Our chams are not going to get to close to the sun

 

[jajeanpierre]

That isnt a true comparison as the UV produced by the sun and UV bulbs is not the same, they have different proportions of the UV spectrum in different strengths. So while the UVB may be only a small dose compared to natural daylight, the other parts of the spectrum can be too strong for our chams at close distances.

Can you cite the research you are basing this hypothesis from or at least provide a link to the information?

 

[Spags]

It does sound like the beginning of MBD. It's good that he doesn't seem to have tongue issues yet. But he sounds like he's getting weaker.
You definitely need to change his supplemental routine to Calcium without D3 everyday. Use a Multivitamin only twice a month and also Calcium with D3 twice a month.

Yes, your powders seem off. Its calcium without d3 everyday, d3 calcium 2 times a month, and multivites 2 times a month (I choose to do it in the beginning and the middle of the month so its an even time between dustings)

 

[Cheeky]

Can you cite the research you are basing this hypothesis from or at least provide a link to the information?

This site has a pretty good explanation http://www.uvguide.co.uk/lightingsurveyintro.htm It also refers to research undertaken here: http://www.testudo.cc/

The extract on the further reference reads:

Sufficient irradiation within a narrow sub-band of the UVB range is a prerequisite for the photosynthesis of vitamin D3 in skin. Although radiation below wavelength of 300 nm (nanometers) promotes photosynthesis of vitamin D3, radiation above 300 nm destroys vitamin D3 that has been already synthesised in skin tissue or obtained nutritionally. Furthermore, skin temperature has a significant effect on the pace of vitamin D3 synthesis. In terrarium, the required UVB-radiation has to be artificially produced with dedicated lamps. In this study, the characteristics of light produced by fourteen different models of UV and full spectrum lamps specifically designed for terrarium use were measured over a range of 250-800 nm. As a reference, the spectrum of natural sunlight was also measured when the sun was at its highest point of elevation in the southern sky of Finland. The proportion of radiation energy that takes part in the photosynthesis of vitamin D3 was determined and the D3Yield Index was calculated. Significant differences as large as thousand fold were found in the D3 Yield Indices. It is concluded that a simple percentage of UVB radiation from the total radiation figure does not necessarily give a true indication of a lamp’s capability to maintain cutaneous production of vitamin D3.

Previously I had found a site that showed some of this information

Our results cannot be used to compare brands, and determine which lamps are the best at stimulating vitamin D3 production. For that, the exact proportion of ultraviolet light in the wavelengths 290 - 315nm produced by each lamp must be known.

This was a while ago, if I come across it again I will add to this thread.

IIRC the conclusion was that the solar meter 6.5 gives a much better reference by supplying a weighted index of the total UV available rather than just focusing on a narrow wave length like the 6.2 does.

Further: Taken from the first site I linked

shows UVB levels monitored in Wales, UK.

It then goes on to recommend artificially produced UVB levels for Panther Chams of 15-33uW/cm² as measured on a solar meter 6.2

Look at the period of time a cham would be able to bask at these levels in the UK...

EDIT: (sorry more content!)

On top of the above you also have the different gradients produced by the different types of lights

Strip light

CFL

Mercury flood

Mercury spot

 

[Cheeky]

Found it!

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor-tests.htm

Please note the comment at the start of the report, the products were tested in 2007 and have since been updated due to some of the issues identified in this report.